So Lets talk websites, the cooling scene, etc...

[Joe]

Well most of you know (or not...) that I sorta gave up on ProCooling nearly 2 years ago. Well not really gave up, just got busy with other stuff. In that time pH did a pretty damn nice job with stuff being posted, reader counts going up and up, it was nice.

Then WoW happened (for pH and like a billion other geeks), and the stupid software we used to manage the site just became too much of a burden and everything sorta stopped on the site. The brakes really got hit like 6 months ago or so. Since then reader counts have dropped to pretty much the lower levels we have seen ever, the site hasn’t been updated (last article is nearly 2 years old), and the forums were left to be the sole place the site was still maintained.

Well Shit...

My other ventures are over now, I have some spare time, and since I walked away from ProCooling I have learned quite a bit about business, web design, web programming, etc...

So instead of just talking I am pretty motivated to get ProCooling back rocking. With pH's testing prowess, My sarcastic self deprecating wit and attention to detail, I am all about moving ProCooling back into the way it was in the previous years (when we actually did work).

Heck even Unaclocker is going to write an article!

We need staff, we need sponsors, we need to find where the cooling scene really is now. I know its pretty much 95% mainstream to water cool now it seems, so the Niche shouldn’t be that small anymore. But on the flip side, now the NEED for this kind of cooling is also going down rapidly. Overclocking isn’t a primary need for many people because the current high end machines are very under worked most of the time.

But silent cooling is something that becomes more and more important when it comes to HTPC's (and powerful HTPC's at that), Home PC's in smaller cases that need to be cooled effectively yet silently, etc...

As far as the website goes, one of the key things that I am pushing for is making the website more about the community than the people who run the site. As with the forums pH, Brian, and myself are hardly the focal points of stuff in the forum, we are more just the care takers of the zoo.

Unlike before - I am pretty motivated to get this thing rocking again, get some new sponsors, get some new light on this old site (in tech site timelines, its pretty old now going on 6 years come December) . We are looking for people to come onboard to help out, we are looking for moderators for the forums (for the workBlogs and such when they come online), and overall just people to help spread the word.

I know we are seen as assholes by the less than smart in the world.. and since there are LOTS of stupid people, it sort of alienates us... but **** it theres more smart ones out there than stupid ones... I HOPE!.

[pHaestus]

Joe one thing we talked about over beer the other day I really think you should do: Get a mainstream kit from Cooltechnica or Swiftech or something and watercool one of your rigs with it. Provide some perspective on how different things are now vs. when you were using all diy stuff. Point out ways that old problems have been solved, and point out areas that still need improvement. Since you haven't built a wcing system in a good long while but you still know your shit I think that it would be an interesting way to get a qualified person to look at how things are going with commercial wcing today.

[jaydee]

One thing I noticed is a lot of the stuff that has been done on this site revolved around the person doing the project. In other words it was what they wanted to do. Nothing wrong with that, but if we want to keep people interested and maybe get some more visitors we may consider catering to what other people want.

To hell if I know what that is though. :shrug:

I certainly have helped the "ProCoolingites are assholes". I have improved my webmanners considerably (at least IMO) over the last year however and have tried to reverse that a little. Although I still have a few outbreaks as ricecrispi knows. :p I do think that drives people to the site however. People always want to see a show and we have done so in th past. In fact when these people get their ass handed to them they usually go to their home forums and cry like a bitch. That is like free advertising. :D

But being an asshole is probably not the best way to go about things.

Anyway I am glad to see Joe motivated to improve this site and gald to see pH take a break from WoW long enough to make a post or 2. Hell things are already looking up. :dome:

[pHaestus]

Well Jaydee I got REALLY burned out on testing waterblocks and so I decided to upgrade my test system for automation and begin testing kits. All hell broke loose then because all my problems/issues/to do lists are interconnected and when I have a little problem (like I cant get the $^%&% dP xmitter to work) then everything just comes to a halt. At that point I usually just go grab a beer and play WoW :)

[jaydee]

Well Jaydee I got REALLY burned out on testing waterblocks and so I decided to upgrade my test system for automation and begin testing kits. All hell broke loose then because all my problems/issues/to do lists are interconnected and when I have a little problem (like I cant get the $^%&% dP xmitter to work) then everything just comes to a halt. At that point I usually just go grab a beer and play WoW :)
I completely understand man! Been there done that. I have faith man! Hell I been so stuck on this stupid BF2 editor I havn't got much else done. :D

[mikoto]

I don't know that I can speak to what most want but I can tell you how my interests have evolved, and what I look for.

In past years I went from stock cooling to high-end air. I got tired of the proverbial dust buster so I tried water cooling. I found that I could get a good balance of performance/noise and was happy as a pig in **** for a while. But with mysterious evaporation necessitating refilling, corrosion, various forms of gunk, outright leaks, etc.. I got sick of it and went back to air, but *quiet* air this time.

Now I am back to water but not for max performance, rather for max quiet, i.e. Reserator.
I have begun to spend some time over at silentpcreview.com and learned to decouple fans, suspend drives, etc.. and now have a much more pleasant computing experience. Much more elegant.

I still enjoy, *very* much the technical discussions I find here, and in fact that is the only reason I come here anymore. Just for the off chance that one of the more technical minded people will post something in the forums I can learn from.

My suggestion would be to begin to try to focus on the computing experience in a bit broader context. Focus on noise, ease of use, build quality, and still on performance as well. Cooling processors is not the only concern of many computer enthusiasts these days.
I want to know how quiet things are; Hard Drives, Optical Drives, Fans, Pumps. I also want to know how much power they consume, how much cooling they will require, how they perform, and in the case of Power Supplies, how effecient. We have people, current and past contributors, for whom acquiring and dissemenating this type of data would be relatively simple. I know, I know, accuracy, repeatability, standards, acquisition of equipment, etc.. No one is giving away free money, and time is money, I get it. I'm just relating what I think is possible.

I think that would find a larger target audience than just the narrowly focused, high-end technical development/testing types of threads and reviews we have enjoyed over the years. Definately do not neglect these areas but recognize and cater to the, for lack of a better word, ergonomic aspects of system design.

Water cooling is out growing the enthusiast and thereby shrinking your audience.
Just look at recent posts in this forum, where past major contributors are stating their reluctance to continue on with business as usual in the forums. What are you going to replace this type of contribution with?

If Cathar et.al. do not post their most interesting threads in a forum where I can read them, what reason do I have to read this forum at all? Just for sporadic testing of water blocks? The occasional amateur water block build thread? The "which pump is best for my setup" thread? I do think procooling is at a critical juncture.

Perhaps it is time, if you are serious, to expand the scope of what procooling deals with.
The real test is finding people who are willing to contribute consistently to various aspects of your future endeavors, reliably, and then delegating to them. Just like any organization has to do to meet consumer market demands. No one person will ever be able/willing to do stuff like this for long. They will burn out. I would volunteer for anything I can do, but honestly I have no background for this type of work. My background is in Psychology.

[/end rambling]

[pdf27]

In my case I'm on ProCooling for two reasons:
1) Thermodynamics geekery - I actually find it quite interesting, and now I've graduated I don't really do any of that any more. ProCooling at least keeps me thinking about that sort of stuff.
2) Get as much theoretical and practical advice as I could for the watercooled system I've just built. It's a kind of hybrid of ProCooling and SPCR (and I do think there is a lot of potential for crossover between the two sites - a lot of users are common to both, and both sites often refer to each other in the forums at least), and is very, very quiet (loudest things in my room right now are the stereo transformer coils, TFT screen, flourescent lightbulb and PC. In that order).
The second part is where ProCooling is very good, simply because it doesn't appear to contain people who think they know what they are doing but don't. That is both rare and very useful indeed.

[Ls7corvete]

One thing I noticed is a lot of the stuff that has been done on this site revolved around the person doing the project. In other words it was what they wanted to do. Nothing wrong with that, but if we want to keep people interested and maybe get some more visitors we may consider catering to what other people want.

To hell if I know what that is though. :shrug:


There is enough knowledgeable people and even representatives from manufactures lurking and contributing that we should be able to make changes in the industry that make performance cooling, mainly WCing, much more accessable to the mainstream users.

Not sure how to implement this yet but I have some ideas and I am sure that others do as well.

[Etacovda]

The second part is where ProCooling is very good, simply because it doesn't appear to contain people who think they know what they are doing but don't. That is both rare and very useful indeed.

Indeed, I love that fact that i can come here, and hardly ever get halfway through reading a thread and think 'my god, why am i wasting my time reading this'. Theres generally value in every thread, and I like the fact that most of the time noone bothers answering the 'what should i buy for my new rigs cooling?!??!' threads; Theres enough spoon feeding at other sites.

To be honest, thats the main part im apprehensive about for the new site - an inrush of 'what should i buy?!' and people like Wing... I think that would end up driving the knowledgable away.

I tried to make a point to read 10x more than I post here, but you'll find that theres a group of people that does the opposite...

I think the single biggest thing that this site could do would be to make a database containing useful threads, reviews and information - but we all know how hard that is.

[DryFire]

I usually just lurk but I think that the higher level discussion and lack of general idiotic and spam threads. Of course I think most people (myself included) would like to see a little more activity.

I would like to see articles done for things other then extreme performance. Like low noise, low cost and perhaps ease of use.

It seems most people know where to find the very high end stuff, but it would be more of a challenge to build systems that perform well at certin price points. Like $100, $150, $200, etc... I think that would be unique. I always enjoy trying to piece together the best system possilble for a low price.

Some GPU block testing would be nice too.

[jaydee]

I think we need some Pro Projects for sure. One thing I have been wanting to do is build a small water cooled computer with enough power to play the latest games yet still quiet. I don't have the hard cash at the moment to do such a project but I think many people would be interested in it. I personally think the HTPC scene is complete waste of time and money but yet there are many interested folks. If someone could put together something like I described above but catered to HTPC I think that would be good. Lastly to go the opposite direction a power house computer chilled and OC'ed to the max.

Another thing lacking severely is hardware reviews. I can't remember when the last mobo or vid card review was?

Anyway just some more random thoughts between packing and BF2 mapping. :)

[Ls7corvete]

I think we need some Pro Projects for sure. One thing I have been wanting to do is build a small water cooled computer with enough power to play the latest games yet still quiet. I don't have the hard cash at the moment to do such a project but I think many people would be interested in it. I personally think the HTPC scene is complete waste of time and money but yet there are many interested folks. If someone could put together something like I described above but catered to HTPC I think that would be good. Lastly to go the opposite direction a power house computer chilled and OC'ed to the max.

Another thing lacking severely is hardware reviews. I can't remember when the last mobo or vid card review was?

Anyway just some more random thoughts between packing and BF2 mapping. :)

ugh we need to stick to cooling. The hardware freaks really rub me the wrong way.

[jaydee]

ugh we need to stick to cooling. The hardware freaks really rub me the wrong way.
Then we just as well shut the site down. There is not nearly enough cooling stuff to keep a site active. One reason things have failed miserably around here lately IMO.

[cotdt]

We should focus on extreme but silent cooling, maybe even extreme passive cooling for HTPCs. I sure as hell am interested. People in other forums like SPCR don't have the hardware skills to make their dreams come true, but here people have a lot of real skills and knowledge.

Also what about memory cooling? Active cooling isn't enough for the memory I use, and they are packed so closely together it's hard to cool them. Ended up watercooling them, but it's another thing we can focus on.

I agree we should stick to cooling, because there is so much yet to be explored, although projects in general are interesting as well. Ideas that come to mind are chimney cooling and using subsonic 190dB sound to cool CPUs silently.

Also, what about building a miniture liquid nitrogen generator that fits inside the computer and is affordable, to ultracool the CPU? There is still a lot to explore, some impractical ideas like this one can be made practical as long as the theory works. Maybe even teach a pet squirrel to continuously blow on the CPU heatsink.

Last but not least thermosyphons are the future. Or at least they are my future, because I am madly in love with thermosyphons. I can't get my mind off of her and her friends.

[jaydee]

I personally think thermosyphons are rapidly getting over rated (and I have a good idea why..). The worst part about them is the gravity feed. This makes proper mounting a real bitch. You have no choice on how it need to mount because the condenser has to be above the evaporator. This leaves very little mounting possibilities. Probably why they are not already flooding the market as they have been used in OEM computers for years now. Hard to come up with a one size fits all. They are also limited on cooling capacity. Anyway what exactly did you have in mind with them here? What would you suggest we do about them?

Here is a very interesting article anyway: http://www.hpl.hp.com/research/papers/2002/thermosyphon.pdf

Liquid Nitrogen Generator? I have seen you mention this before. You will have to explain exactly what your thinking here. From what I understand those generate Liquid Nitrogen. In other words make it... From what I understand those units are air cooled in order to do this. Is there some other type of liquid nitrogen generator that cools somehow as it is making liquid nitrogen?

Chimney cooling I just don't see any use for. It is much like bong cooling. Who wants a huge pipe sticking up around their computer? It is also failed as it needs heat source in the thing to make it work well. That is just counter productive. Let's not cool things by heating others up?

Cooling memory? What is there to discuss?

What exactly is extreme passive cooling?

Sound cooling? I always was interested in this. Especially combined with liquid cooling. I can see some possibilities here but still don't understand the process to well.

[snowwie]

Then we just as well shut the site down. There is not nearly enough cooling stuff to keep a site active. One reason things have failed miserably around here lately IMO.

you guys are talking as if procooling has no niche

the site has no reason to try and shift to silence, or HTPC, or chillers with crazy overclocks, there are plenty of websites for each of those already

procooling, as long as i've been reading (~3 yrs) has been about PC watercooling component performance and discussion, and in the recent trend of less DIY and more mainstream, we are just realizing that the definition of performance isn't just temps anymore, it's noise, aesthetics, [market's perception?] etc

point is if PC watercooling has reached a halt (which it hasn't), then maybe the site may die or change dramatically. But it hasn't, it just isn't what you want it to be jd

[cotdt]

jd: a copper wick in a thermosyphon can allow it to do any orientation. it'll still be cheap in cost to produce. thanks for the wonderful link, that article gave me a new idea that i will try, and i'm sure i can build a more effective one than the weak thing they presented in the article. passive extreme HTPC cooling refers to peltiers cooled by thermosyphon cooled by large passive radiator which is the case itself. of course a large PSU needs to fit into the HTPC case. liquid ln2 idea is still just a dream at the moment. memory waterblocks have nothing to be discussed? where can i buy one? making one myself was PITA and i will never be a hardware freak ever again.

snowwie: in my opinion PC watercooling component performance and discussion is reaching a halt soon, because waterblocks are becoming very effective and don't really need to be much better. i don't even think you can get that much better, but that's just from what i know. pumps just need to be more quiet and radiators are now designed for quiet in mind. there doesn't seem to be much new to ask for as far as conventional watercooling goes. however, cooling in general and alternative watercooling is really interesting because there is still a lot that needs to be developed and stuff no one has ever even thought of. so i think a slight shift toward trying new ideas would make procooling more interesting.

i already have the ideal quiet/performance watercooling setup for my computer and don't really care about new conventional watercooling products. i love my setup so much that at night i put my waterblock on my forehead and cool myself to sleep.

[jaydee]

you guys are talking as if procooling has no niche

the site has no reason to try and shift to silence, or HTPC, or chillers with crazy overclocks, there are plenty of websites for each of those already

procooling, as long as i've been reading (~3 yrs) has been about PC watercooling component performance and discussion, and in the recent trend of less DIY and more mainstream, we are just realizing that the definition of performance isn't just temps anymore, it's noise, aesthetics, [market's perception?] etc

point is if PC watercooling has reached a halt (which it hasn't), then maybe the site may die or change dramatically. But it hasn't, it just isn't what you want it to be jd
I completely fail to see your logic. If the site isn't going to expand into other areas it will be dead like it is now. How many posts were made yesterday? Hardly any...

And what do you mean water cooling isn't what I want it to be? That makes no sense. :shrug: I just think we talk big around here about what works and what doesn't yet we have no working examples of all that we talk about. Hence the projects to not only prove our theory's work but also help others learn why it works.

cotdt: I don't think wicks work in thermalsyphons. Havn't seen anything to suggest they do.

[LPorc]

I came here for knowledge and drank deeply.

As far as mainstream goes, ProCooling was both for the modding enthusiast and the hardcore fringe, and the more casual audience of those that pondered perhaps trying their hand at it. Now that there are more affordable and better components available they can try with bought components. Really, how many folks even own a drill press let alone a CNC Mill? When a decent CPU block can be had for less than USD$50 why buy not buy a block rather than the tools? The primary participant was the audience, the actors folks posting worklogs and doing the things the audience didn't have the means to do.

What I see having changed is the attitude. There has been a cancer here that seems to have mostly gone in remission, but is none-the-less worrisome. That cancer is elitism. Folks come up with ideas or do projects, and the response is to quickly point out the shortcomings. There were too many folks here obsessed with some imaginary state-of-the-art performance criteria for water cooling, and any component that fell short of that obsession was instantly met with criticism. If anything, the ghetto roots of the hobby were forgotten, and the answer "Because I can" to the question of "Why would you want to do that?" was no longer good enough. Now folks are scared to try anything, or at least to share.

Let's see some more of the real world. You know, windowless cases and cardboard external radiator boxes wedged between the bookshelf and the desk. More copper end cap blocks. More reservoirs in old buried propane cylinders. Let's celebrate the cheese and embrace the kitsch. ProCooling isn't about being in the mainstream, nor is it about redefining the mainstream. Mainstream is stock cooling. Here, as long as it cools better than stock in some way (temps, sound, cost, looks, whatever!), anything goes.

[Ls7corvete]

I came here for knowledge and drank deeply.

As far as mainstream goes, ProCooling was both for the modding enthusiast and the hardcore fringe, and the more casual audience of those that pondered perhaps trying their hand at it. Now that there are more affordable and better components available they can try with bought components. Really, how many folks even own a drill press let alone a CNC Mill? When a decent CPU block can be had for less than USD$50 why buy not buy a block rather than the tools? The primary participant was the audience, the actors folks posting worklogs and doing the things the audience didn't have the means to do.

What I see having changed is the attitude. There has been a cancer here that seems to have mostly gone in remission, but is none-the-less worrisome. That cancer is elitism. Folks come up with ideas or do projects, and the response is to quickly point out the shortcomings. There were too many folks here obsessed with some imaginary state-of-the-art performance criteria for water cooling, and any component that fell short of that obsession was instantly met with criticism. If anything, the ghetto roots of the hobby were forgotten, and the answer "Because I can" to the question of "Why would you want to do that?" was no longer good enough. Now folks are scared to try anything, or at least to share.

Let's see some more of the real world. You know, windowless cases and cardboard external radiator boxes wedged between the bookshelf and the desk. More copper end cap blocks. More reservoirs in old buried propane cylinders. Let's celebrate the cheese and embrace the kitsch. ProCooling isn't about being in the mainstream, nor is it about redefining the mainstream. Mainstream is stock cooling. Here, as long as it cools better than stock in some way (temps, sound, cost, looks, whatever!), anything goes.


Lol I agree.

I also wanna see the community working together to make all areas better. There have been several people voicing up for silent cooling, gaming cooling, cheap cooling, DIY cooling etc etc. I Lporc mentioned elitism and I can totaly see that, that is what I hate about hardware guys, alot of the forums end up with two catagories, whats the "best" and everything else. Thats not what I want to see happen with cooling.

[jaydee]

Good points LPorc and Ls7corvete. I was hoping more people would jump in here with points like that. I really think it goes a lot deeper than elitism however. Computers have evolved to the point that there is hardly any real enthusiasts anymore. Mobo's and vid cards overclock them selfs these days for Christ sake. I find very little reason why anyone would attempt ghetto stuff anymore. Hell when I started OC'ing I bought a brand new Asus A7V (not the 133!) and a Duron 600. Them was the days! To hell with cases and crap. I had that baby up on a custom made plywood table with custom high quality cardboard ducting with the finest $ store duck tape! Had the rad sucking in the cold winter air and OC'ed that thing to 900+ mhz crunching SETI. I built my first WB on that system. A 2"x2"x2" chunk of aluminum with a simple double cross drill. I used a couple strips of brass for hold down. I had the highest of quality Harbor Freight $10 200GPH at 0 head pump and a transmission oil cooler.

I honestly never had so much fun with computers in my life. Next thing I knew I had 5 comps crunching SETI and was building water cooling parts for all of them, even bought my CNC mill to do so. Hell one year I had 3 comps on one loop all with no cases and all sitting on top of one of those fold out tables. I believe that as the year I discovered this site as well.

We used to have to actually CUT the case and put our own window in the thing. Now just about every case on the planet has one. Lights? I remember guys custom making them. Now you can buy then if they are not already installed. Why do something yourself if you can buy it for less and have better quality for the most part?

Back then you had to work to OC as well. Now all you have to do is make a few key strokes in the bios and the bios will overclock for you. Hell I OC'ed my FX5500 today with coolbits2 and all I had to do was hit a button and it overclocked the damn thing for me.

I just don't find it fun anymore. I require a challenge and there just isn't any. I browse many hardware forums and really don't see anything like I used to do anymore either so it isn't just this site. All the hardcore enthusiasts that I learned from gave it up long ago and have moved on. Now days the majority of the posts are what kit to buy or what parts to get as opposed to how should I build this block and what heater core to mod.

I have also evolved. I am no more wanting to OC as I find no fun or reason to do so. I now would rather have a small computer nearly hidden and quiet yet still have enough power to play the latest games somewhat well. I see a lot more people wanting similar.

I will agree there is a lot of "why bother" that goes on and we do have somewhat of a "state-of-the-art performance criteria". Why? because we been there and done that!

So my question is what's next?

[bigben2k]

I think that the challenge left is in the control circuits.

[LPorc]

So my question is what's next?

I have also evolved. I am no more wanting to OC as I find no fun or reason to do so. I now would rather have a small computer nearly hidden and quiet yet still have enough power to play the latest games somewhat well. I see a lot more people wanting similar.


Jaydee, what's next is the doing.

List out the criteria, talk about it, gather ideas, make some decisions, start a build and a worklog with some text and pictures. Inspire others by showing them the possibilities. Let others borrow from your imagination and methods, and add and share their own twists.

It starts with a goal and moves forward from there. What we need to do is get those goals documented and share the journey to minimize the snubbery from the folks that have different goals in mind. That's part of the problem, the elitism is not a matter of arrogance, but a matter of differing goals and values. We've all evolved, often in different directions, and some folks are at different places on the evolutionary path.

Let's have some monster overclock anything goes systems, some systems that make a pin drop sound loud, some systems that make a loaf of bread look huge, some that are works of art, some that are works of ingenius ghetto functionality. You get the idea. The important part is the goal needs to be stated up front, and the decisions and discussion tied back to those goals.

I'd much rather see "I chose the 3/8 inch block x because of the blocks price, relatively decent low flow performance for the small and quiet pump I am using, and the smaller tubing works out better for routing in the small form factor I am working in" up front instead of seeing "3/8? Block x? Weak-ass pump? Geeze, what a n00ber. That company makes crap. Might as well go with air." State the goals and rationale for choices and move the arguments over the relative merits of noise, best possible temps, size, etc off to their own threads.

ProCooling has been instrumental in the process of helping better performance within the community. What we need to do now is recognize that performance means different things to different people.

Maybe come up with a questionaire/form to begin each worklog and as an aid for folks in figuring out their own design goals and priorities. Hell, that could even grow to include some recommendations and rules of thumb for certain areas. Say something like a 1-5 scale for size, overclockability, temps, bling, cost, etc. with a few example systems or components. Center the discussion around the choices and the best way to meet those goals.

[Etacovda]

"I have also evolved. I am no more wanting to OC as I find no fun or reason to do so. I now would rather have a small computer nearly hidden and quiet yet still have enough power to play the latest games somewhat well. I see a lot more people wanting similar."

yep, this is my exact personal aim for my main system. I want all the power of a regular comp without knowing theres even a tower there...

[snowwie]

jd i meant that PC watercooling isn't DIY anymore like it used to be. i can buy a kit that will do just what i want, so DIY is less popular today. in fact there is almost NO reason to go DIY anymore, with the availability of PC watercooling components that suit nearly ALL enthusiasts' needs.

I am possibly gonna built a Dry Ice chilled loop in the near future, i got it all figured out, and the only thing I may learn in the process is whether or not my laing DDC will survive (i think it will). and I think I may get a chance to experiment with fluids at sub-zero temps but i think i am settled on ethanol. but the project will probably be of little value to procooling...

[jaydee]

Sounds good LPorc and I agree. I think some of us need to have more tolerance for sure. I know I have worked on that a lot. I used to jump in on any thread and hammer the guy if it wasn't to MY liking. Now I just ignore the thread if I don't like it for the most part, unless of course it is just to stupid. :D

snowwie I think we are on the same page. I do see DIY less attractive and I see a lot less of it. A lot of the DIY stuff I see now days is more commercial driven as well.

The dry ice thing is intriguing. I personally don't like the idea of using it for benchmarks in competition but it sure is interesting to see what can be done with it. Might have been better when CPU were better overclockers though. I hope you do post a thread about it.

BB2K there is a lack of control circuits. My guess is however if something is developed here then 2,000 Chinese companies will have 15,000 different versions of it out before we could market it our selfs. This is why I suggested a closed forum. Invite respectable manufactures only and people that can actually add to the discussion.

[snowwie]

well quite honestly i don't really know what the hell i'm trying to say...i'm glad you understand some of it

as for benchmarking...there is no better measurement for PC cooling performance than PC performance

[jaydee]

Hopefully, sooner or later, Joe and pH will swing in here and comment on some of the stuff posted already.

One thing I will be focusing a lot of my attention on is testing. I have yet to decide if I want to do it for ProCooling or my own site though, or both. I am planning a water block round up that will be continuous. In other words I will be getting 5-6 blocks to start it with and then adding blocks as I get them. I intend to concentrate on water blocks but may get into kits as well as they are becoming more and more popular and better.

I am off untill tomorrow night...

[pHaestus]

jaydee: A few posts up you said "Then we just as well shut the site down. There is not nearly enough cooling stuff to keep a site active. One reason things have failed miserably around here lately IMO."

Then you say "One thing I will be focusing a lot of my attention on is testing. I have yet to decide if I want to do it for ProCooling or my own site though, or both. "

So there isn't enough cooling info to keep one site active so let's start 2? Look as far as I'm concerned if you want a more active (like my current) role in Procooling then that's fine. There's no question about it though; I need help with content. Now it sounds to me that you're going to do the sort of testing that I did in the past exactly. This means that I should be doing what? Some overlap is actually healthy but we need a plan on how to proceed I think.

I've been bugging Joe for a while about getting worklogs for you and a few others but it was more hassle than it was worth until the site gets rebuilt.

As far as expanding Procooling to deal with hardware and general computers stuff goes, that SOUNDS like a good idea. But what you'll get are well-written (as far as grammar goes) reviews from people not much more qualified than you are to do the reviewing. I don't think any of us here are really qualified to be giving recommendations on hardware purchases, so I don't normally do it. Plus if I don't have the time for cooling reviews then running suites of tests on 100 different video cards is even less likely.

What COULD happen with the weblogs for readers is that many different people post reviews of hardware as they get them and get the time to do it. We'll have to see how that evolves I guess.

[pHaestus]

Oh and for my 2c on things other than cooling we CAN do well here:

I think that there is some really good expertise in some of the things people DO with their watercooled PCs nowadays. Joe knows an assload about DV editing and PC-based digital media production. I have had a HTPC for quite some time and both Joe and I have pretty "networked" homes as far as the living room entertainment center goes. I'm sure that there are some people here that do 3d modeling CAD stuff and would provide some information. These are areas that was have expertise, we have interest, and where (in general) it can be hard to get up to speed on. Maybe some content on those topics would be interesting?

[Joe]

Yeh I was thinking about hardware reviews, and even cooling reviews. One thing hit me, I dont even have an A64 rig. everything I have is still Socket A! So yes as far as knowing and recommending purchases, I do think I am pretty out of date at this point hehe.

But for HTPC, silent computing, I have helped many friends recently get rigs setup and quiet. So those are the areas I am going to be focusing on once I get the site development work behind me. Some day I may even get me one of dem fancy A64's!

[pHaestus]

You also have a lot of expertise in networking/data backup and storage. I STILL find that to be a bit of a mystery

[Joe]

True, I can look at stuff for that. I mean the Snap server guys frequent these forums quite a bit in the networking area.

[pHaestus]

Well my point was that we have things other than cooling reviews that we are good at. But I'm not sure that PC hardware reviews are included in that list :)

[Joe]

unless you just want me to talk about my dream hardware configs ;) No.

I am very key on "effective" purchases. Not buying something because you can, buying something because you needed it to do some thing and have it do that purpose well. Thats prolly the biggest mentality difference between myself and the mainstreem kid whos into the hardware scene. This is in much the same reason I am using Socket A's still. They are cheap, effective and get the job done.

[pHaestus]

I'm pretty much the same, though I still splurge on hardware from time to time.

[peepingdan]

Everything I know about watercooling I learned from Cathar. Keep him posting and keep his threads alive. He is a sparkling gem.
And you all are as well.
I've been sitting in in the backseat watching procooling for a few years now. Always reading and enjoying but rarely posting. I represent the average joe for sure. I have never had any formal training or any math higher than Algebra 2, but I have managed to craft my own block base and I still plan to finish it when I get the tools. I have been looking to site site to help me in my progress, but all these commercial block review simply do nothing but provide numbers that every other review website will have. The reviews... not so much.
This isn't Consumercooling, this is Procooling.

[bigben2k]

...
BB2K there is a lack of control circuits. My guess is however if something is developed here then 2,000 Chinese companies will have 15,000 different versions of it out before we could market it our selfs. This is why I suggested a closed forum. Invite respectable manufactures only and people that can actually add to the discussion.
I don't think that ProCooling wants any part in that, but there's nothing stopping us from opening such a forum.

You have pm.

[Joe]

ben is this going to follow up the awesome success the WBTA had? :)

[bigben2k]

Oh I have a lot to learn about putting up a website, but working for Yahoo! has helped a lot.

You know, the weird thing is that traffic is still increasing:
http://wbta.us/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=48&?topic=43.msg410;topicseen#msg410

Nothing astronomical, but a steady rise. :shrug:

[jaydee]

jaydee: A few posts up you said "Then we just as well shut the site down. There is not nearly enough cooling stuff to keep a site active. One reason things have failed miserably around here lately IMO."

Then you say "One thing I will be focusing a lot of my attention on is testing. I have yet to decide if I want to do it for ProCooling or my own site though, or both. "

So there isn't enough cooling info to keep one site active so let's start 2?
Joe as expressed a desire to get ProCooling "rocking". You do water block testing for ProCooling so I see no reason why I should do it for ProCooling. Yet I am not going to give up my desire to test. This is why I would do it on my own site. My own site in which I am not concerned with activity as I feel there wouldn't be that much solely on cooling. So with that I will do it for my own site. Also I don't test specifically for other people. I test because I like to. Having results to show is just a product of the hobby.


Look as far as I'm concerned if you want a more active (like my current) role in Procooling then that's fine. There's no question about it though; I need help with content. Now it sounds to me that you're going to do the sort of testing that I did in the past exactly. This means that I should be doing what? Some overlap is actually healthy but we need a plan on how to proceed I think.
You already started testing for this site and have had a lot of donated money and equipment from the people that want to see YOU test. So you should be the guy that does it. The real question is what roll do you want ME to do for ProCooling?

I've been bugging Joe for a while about getting worklogs for you and a few others but it was more hassle than it was worth until the site gets rebuilt.
A work log is good. I have many projects in mind to do that I think many people would find interesting. Although I find a lack of interest in my projects lately.

As far as expanding Procooling to deal with hardware and general computers stuff goes, that SOUNDS like a good idea. But what you'll get are well-written (as far as grammar goes) reviews from people not much more qualified than you are to do the reviewing. I don't think any of us here are really qualified to be giving recommendations on hardware purchases, so I don't normally do it. Plus if I don't have the time for cooling reviews then running suites of tests on 100 different video cards is even less likely.
I understand that and ok. People might find it odd however we can recommend cooling for hardware we don't know enough about to review.

What COULD happen with the weblogs for readers is that many different people post reviews of hardware as they get them and get the time to do it. We'll have to see how that evolves I guess.
User reviews could be good. People might come here just for that in fact as it would be uncensored for the most part. Although there maybe more negative input than positive as I find most people with a gripe are more likely to speak up.

[ymboc]

User reviews are all well and good... but how would you maintain quality?... Call me a cynic but the world is full of "I just got X. X is awesome. Y sucks because I like X." people. One of Ed's editorials talked about this and how hardware purchases becoming an emotional experience for many these day (aside: much like how not buying hardware is becoming emotional to me as I am becoming exceedingly jealous of people with heaps more disposable income to spend on this stuff)

Long story short... how do you keep user reviews (relatively) objective? And for that matter how do you deal with 'sponsored' reviews?

bah. That all aside, I'm getting excited about procooling getting the ball rolling again - and I think the reader worklogs are an excellent idea. Cheers.

[Ls7corvete]

User reviews are all well and good... but how would you maintain quality?... Call me a cynic but the world is full of "I just got X. X is awesome. Y sucks because I like X." people. One of Ed's editorials talked about this and how hardware purchases becoming an emotional experience for many these day (aside: much like how not buying hardware is becoming emotional to me as I am becoming exceedingly jealous of people with heaps more disposable income to spend on this stuff)

Long story short... how do you keep user reviews (relatively) objective? And for that matter how do you deal with 'sponsored' reviews?

bah. That all aside, I'm getting excited about procooling getting the ball rolling again - and I think the reader worklogs are an excellent idea. Cheers.

Does the quality of the review really matter that much? If 9 out of 10 people are not satisfied with the product are you gonna want to buy it?

It doesnt always take a test bench resolution of .01c to tell if a product is quality or not.

"I just got X. X is awesome. Y sucks because I like X." people.
These people bother me too.

I do agree that there is alot of people with a viewpoint on hardware that I do not understand but if they bought the hardware, tested it and formed an opinion then they should be able to input constructivley to the forums. Most of what you mentioned above I believe comes from people commenting on what they have read and heard instead of witnessed first hand, I like to think of it as the "flock of sheep" phenomenone.

that all goes for cooling and hardware, but especially hardware.

[pHaestus]

ymboc:
The idea here is to have user reviews and articles be posted via a forum-like interface and tweaked by the author until they are satisfied. Then the Procooling staff (and extended helpers) will see that article and make suggestions/edits/ask for clarification. The author could decide "screw you guys I'm not changing anything" and that's that. Or the author could revise/accept/expand the article and it would then be posted on the site for all to see.

[pHaestus]

jaydee:
I REALLY want to avoid further fragmenting our community by having you post stuff on another site. What I was getting at is that we should have thought about how we're gonna proceed so that both of our sets of data are useful and complementary. I think your approach of making blocks with difft designs and comparing them is badass, and it would probably be a good thing to expand. Would that look like you testing lots of DIY blocks from yourself and others along with several commercial blocks as they are released while I focus on commercial products only? Perhaps that makes sense?

[ymboc]

ls7: noted, though I never meant to imply that it was necessary for the reviews to be that 'precise'. I guess it was a bit of venting combined with concern as to how to go about keeping (relatively unmoderated) forum based reviews from degenerating in a big stirred pot of shi- err, non-usefullness.

ph: I didn't realise that the publishing process was going to be that structured - much like the guest articles in the past then? Sounds much better than the unstructured approach I was envisioning.

Do you suppose it would be possible for us 'normal' members could peek at the reviews as they're going through the process? (Perhaps at the discression of the author/editor?) It might encourage the potential authors to post since their work would be immediately viewable at least in one form or another (even if not 'officially published'). Plus it would keep the rest of us happy - I remember feeling intensely curious (and somewhat left out) whenever there were in-progress article discussions in the front-page 'pro/forums' block we able to see existed but weren't able to view.

[pHaestus]

Well it is certainly possible to set things up so that an article that is rated above a certain point by forum readers becomes auto-posted. The concern would be that if you have 100 editors that things quickly become impossible to properly revise and post. We'll think on this I guess.

[Joe]

Yeh, stuff like that adds to something that is already really quite complex. I had to start over last night and re-think how I was going to attack all this, and I am getting some ideas wrote down, but I had to start over on how I was going to handle legacy articles and the new article posting action.

I would have to say the new site is atleast 3 weeks off since I need to learn how to do some stuff I dont know how to do currently ;) But once the sites up everything should be online in one move then. You;ve all waited 6 years another 3 weeks to a month isnt going to hurt ya ;)

[pHaestus]

As long as new content doesnt get added to WOW then I'm cool with 3 weeks from now. I'll post any wb test data in the forums instead for the time being

[jaydee]

jaydee:
I REALLY want to avoid further fragmenting our community by having you post stuff on another site. What I was getting at is that we should have thought about how we're gonna proceed so that both of our sets of data are useful and complementary. I think your approach of making blocks with difft designs and comparing them is badass, and it would probably be a good thing to expand. Would that look like you testing lots of DIY blocks from yourself and others along with several commercial blocks as they are released while I focus on commercial products only? Perhaps that makes sense?
That sounds good to me. That way we can keep our own results in check to. I will probably end up redirecting my sites here once I get the work log.

2-3 weeks Joe? Sounds good to me. I need that time to move, re-setup the test bench and redo my die simulator anyway. You guys might want to round up the people you want for staff and start some discussion on what you want them to do before the site opens up. That way they know what to do and are ready when it happens.

[ymboc]

man my words keep on getting misunderstood... I guess I ought to get my 'speech' looked at or something... bah.

[zoson]

I dunno, talking to the computer noobs I play with in WoW, I've come to see one thing in them: they're all afraid to water cool because they think there is some kind of astronomically high risk with the water bursting from your tubes and spraying the entirety of your case and parts. Even the people who are semi interested, that's always their first question 'what happens if it leaks???'
I know this is a terribly old and beaten topic around here, but there are new noobs who need to hear it growing up every day. If we are to pick up new readers, we have to keep producing material they can understand and/or find useful. It's sad but true, most people want to be able to look at a bar graph and 'decide' what's best. Think for them, perhaps. Which would explain why all of the terrible kits still sell well...
.02

[Joe]

well those kids you play WoW with prolly think Women are scary, and that big fire ball out side will hurt them. I wouldnt base any facts off people who have lost touch with reality to the point they need to hide in their own lil simulated reality for most of their waking hours.

[Ls7corvete]

well those kids you play WoW with prolly think Women are scary, and that big fire ball out side will hurt them. I wouldnt base any facts off people who have lost touch with reality to the point they need to hide in their own lil simulated reality for most of their waking hours.

ROFL.

[hanziman]

If there are more like me.. there will be people who first visited you site when they were 13 and one day in a net cafe during a typhoon randomly remembered the address.. and boom... here i am, hi!

I have my own computer, and it is a peice of crap, and also about 8,000 miles away.. i will rpobably build a watercooled HTPC like you were talking about.. did i say hi?

[pHaestus]

hmm Joe so I guess all my credibility is gone?

[TerraMex]

well those kids you play WoW with prolly think Women are scary, and that big fire ball out side will hurt them. I wouldnt base any facts off people who have lost touch with reality to the point they need to hide in their own lil simulated reality for most of their waking hours.

... the undead (http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php?date=2004-04-23).
btw
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/games/wowworld.html
good read.

[Joe]

hmm Joe so I guess all my credibility is gone?

hehe hey you said it I didnt :)

[Joe]

... the undead (http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php?date=2004-04-23).
btw
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/games/wowworld.html
good read.


hahahahaha holy shit, thats good. yep its a disease as much as herpes is in hookers.

[jaydee]

WoW issues aside......

I started moving into my new place today and it looks very promising for testing. Room temp inside was 70F without A/C on while outside temp was 88F. That's a hell of a lot better then my current place. My current place is in the sun all day lone. Windows on the east and west. The new place the windows are north and south and has larger building on the sides providing shade. I have to be in there and out of here by the end of tomorrow. Heh, my Apt. is kinda like a big computer case.


So that leaves the die sim rebuild and some minor adjustments to the test bench (plus re-setting it all up) and I should be good to go. My last tests of the WWLE and TDX were pretty on with pH's on the GPH vs. dT graph though so I think I am in decent shape to start testing in 2 weeks. I have spent a long time (couple months) working on my mounting method and I am pretty happy with it.

If all goes well I will have stuff to post once the site has changed over. (WWLE, TDX and MP-05 results)....

[jaydee]

I got moved over the last few days and just got internet hooled back up. The test bench is up and running. TDX tests are done and have the Maze 4 on there now. I decided to forgo the die sim mod as I can't justufy spending $40 on gas just to mill a new die sim that probably isn't much better than what I am using. I did lap the die sim today with a technique BillA suggested and it came out good.

Anyway I intend to post some results of blocks tomorrow in a new thread. I will update the thread as I complete each block. Looksl ike I can get 2-3 done a day. Tomorrow however will be spend all on the MP-05 SP and the 3 nozzles.

[Ls7corvete]

I got moved over the last few days and just got internet hooled back up. The test bench is up and running. TDX tests are done and have the Maze 4 on there now. I decided to forgo the die sim mod as I can't justufy spending $40 on gas just to mill a new die sim that probably isn't much better than what I am using. I did lap the die sim today with a technique BillA suggested and it came out good.

Anyway I intend to post some results of blocks tomorrow in a new thread. I will update the thread as I complete each block. Looksl ike I can get 2-3 done a day. Tomorrow however will be spend all on the MP-05 SP and the 3 nozzles.

Keep up the good work and keep us posted. I still wanna see you build a chiller though.

[jaydee]

Still going to build the chiller. What I plan to do is get a bunch of stuff that needs milling, buy the material and tooling and then go do it all at the same time. My mill is setup at my Grand Parents house and that is a 300mile round trip. It will cost me about $40 in gas alone right now. Money is a little tight at the moment after the move. Making do with what I got for now.

[jaydee]

Joys of water block testing.... I am going to scrap all my results from yesterday. I am finding my probe was loose and not sure when it became that way.... I hooked up the MP-05 SP with #3 nozzle today and am having a very hard time bleeding the system of air because the block is so restrictive. I have a work around for this but I need to re-plumb some stuff.

So today I am going to tackle both of those problems. I am going to setup a second temp measuring system as well with the CF633 to keep things in check. I can also data log with it to.

Anyway, results will be put off a bit. I hope to have the bench up and running as right as it can by the end of today and will run the MP-05 SP and all 3 nozzle's first then the TDX and then down the line of 2 barbed blocks. After that I will setup for 3 barbed blocks and run those out.

[Blackeagle]

Glad to see the site upgrading.

Many good ideas for the forums, look forward to seeing them all up and going. Saw a couple changes as soon as I dropped by today.

[zero0ne]

If you ever do decide to do some hardware reviews, please please do the reviews like bit-tech does.

I.E. they dont just give you numbers, but settings that worked the best for them when actually playing the game and not just running the demo test.

i cant stand reviews that are hey look at me i scored a 12000 on 3dmark etc

Edit: i remember the first time i found this site, back when i was helping a friend of the family do her e-mails and i had sooo much free time that i would always search about overclocking stuff; that was back with the good ole christovan or christovan153 username haha

[V12|V12]

Hrmm... It’s been quite a LONG time since I posted anything or checked much of the forums - why? Flat out - you'll have to forgive the venom or perceived negativity - but I started seeing the direction that a lot of more experienced posters were going and that was basically, that DYI'ers/ing work and ideas were laughable in their eyes. Or that if you could not reproduce CNC'd like quality machining, then your ideas and opinions were not as valued. I also saw a sense of new/lesser experienced DYI'ers moving away from DYI'ing for the simple fact that the "experts" on the site weren't catering to them as much and pushing only CNC/expensive design theories/models/ideas, which lead to people just buying all this supposed "innovative" kits and misc parts... People dropping the whole idea and experience you get from going out, getting whatever parts you can and DOING IT! Making something from YOUR own hands and using what you've read and picked up on from other people Vs just shelling out some cash to the next copy-cat vendor....
No doubt these people make wonderful products that take cooling to the next level and beyond, but it's the fact that I have seen LOTS of innovations without proper credit given. I have not bought any water cooling blocks or reservoirs from a site and hope to never do so. I LIKE building, I LIKE the experience of using my MIND to innovate and trouble shoot. Buying is fine for those that can afford to do so, or just don't have much interest in using or tapping into their unforeseen abilities to create for themselves. The tide has rescinded and has washed in a whole market of credit less innovations which I think has the undecided user thinking that building and learning the way I and many others started out with, and hopefully continue to do - as the way of the past - the hard road that should be avoided... Sad, but I've seen it with my own eyes from the continuing posts about "which block, res, HCore, case, tubes, pump etc... should I buy," Vs "Hey guys I have an idea for xyz project, any opinions?" For those that disagree, look at the posts over the years and see for yourself. Again nothing wrong with buying something, esp if you cannot produce it at all... but catering toward buying things, man that's NOT the way to go. It takes the HOBBY, the experience learned, the knowledge gained, the forum comradery from ASKING people for help and tips- out of Watercooling!
Once I saw this shift, I too lost interest in liquid cooling myself. I'm very disappointed b/c of my unexpected attitude change. It disappoints me to see people feeling like if they ask a "stupid" "noob" question they'll get railed/flamed on by the "higher ups" of this community — as expected. What's funny about that is my own little experiments of doing so. Posing questions that would be viewed as silly/ noobish and EXPECTING and KNOWING that some of the same overly-aggressive people would live up to a predictable pattern of forum bullying and thus making the tentative poster, not even bother with posting said idea(s). Naming names is pointless since it's more of a group think or group reinforced/acceptable behavior which should NEVER be tolerated!

Eg: “Oh that’s just xyz guy, he’s hot tempered…” BS, stating such and NOT taking punitive action against such behavior or mannerism just continues to reinforce said behavior! Don’t LET it continue, please.

Hence why even myself, became tired of the same people habitually mouthing off and attacking others. It's just NOT a way to retain members and certainly NOT a way to encourage new lurkers and guests to become part of the water cooling community. Water cooling IS a community of people from all walks of life and philosophy. Some come, some go, but never let the community become another over saturated MARKET place for vendors - who constantly scour OUR forums for other's ideas and innovations, to then put in their products... thus the fanboys begin emerging - endlessly touting product XYZ for a particular vendor and then attacking anyone who decides to challenge the authenticity and reasoning behind such practices. You all need to start thinking about HOW did all of these water cooling vendors sites just suddenly pop up? How did all of these so-called innovations in PC-cooling methodology arise? It wasn’t inevitable as many would have you believe. These ideas were researched and stripped from forums like procooling. And the ideas continue to do so…

It’s like a funny episode of Seinfeld where Elaine is talking about how good the muffin tops are, while being overheard by her former work boss/colleague Mr.Lippman – then the next day while walking down the street she comes across a shop called “top of the muffin to you,” and low and behold – who comes out from the back to offer her a muffin top? Her colleague and seemingly respectable boss Mr.Lippman! Then he says

Mr. Lippman: Elaine these ideas are all in the air. They're in the air.
Elaine: Well if that air is coming out of this face then it is my air and my idea.
Mr. Lippman: You want a muffin or not?
Elaine: Peach.
You KNOW who you are… read your own posts and see your change of habit and seemingly unbiased opinion.

Wow, with all that said, it sure seems like I'm the bad apple/negative in the bunch - not really... I really did like this place! I was always checking the forums, sometimes multiple times for new posts. I Miss that experience a lot! It's a rare occasion that I pass through and look for someone's new "hey can you help me with my project?" post. I hope the spirit of DYI'ing stays alive and is nurtured by senior members of the forums. :confused: I still cannot believe that I’m don participate in the forums any longer… I guess that’s a good thing to some, and a sad progression from my own hindsight. I sure have learned a TON of stuff from the 1st day I started posting and reading the forums.

Some will and would love nothing more than to pick this diatribe apart (and I know who will be doing so… hehe) but why waste text? It’s MY opinion, from MY experiences and proving them false or “wrong” does not change what I and maybe a few others have experienced. Your dissent can NEVER take that experience away nor down play it… the only thing that can is FUTURE change in attitude from the community leaders of this and other forums, and from myself as I continue to learn from other’s posts. I hope I can come back to this place some day and feel at “home.” I hope the site and the forums stay true and continue to flourish! Well folks take care, and keep DYI cooling and the spirit of learning from kinetic experiences alive! :) :) :)

[HaloJones]

I mainly lurk here but it's where I come for what I think of as definitive answers. I then shamelessly steal everyone else's ideas and pretend I know what I'm talking about at Overclockers UK where we still get the "what if I put my radiator in a mini-fridge" threads once a month :rolleyes: This site is linked in the WC sticky and maybe that helps some of the questioners to come here and learn. Over the last couple of years, the expertise at OCUK has definitely improved and the amount of interest has grown to the point where OCUK now stocks Swiftech components. This site is at least partly responsible for that.

As to how it should change (assuming it should) I think the Wikipedia idea is spot on. There is a fantastic amount of information here but it's mostly in the forums which aren't always the best advert for the site. Getting that data out of there and into a user-friendly environment would be great. The forums are the generators of the data and a great place to go into the nitty-gritty but I'd like to see that data presented to the general cooling public in a nicely searchable database of some kind.