PDA

View Full Version : An Open Letter to "Feathers"


AntiBling
03-14-2004, 01:32 PM
Hi feathers
As those who post here are no doubt aware, you are very much a proponent of a cooling system that includes the use of peltier devices. To spare you the trouble of posting to thread after thread to talk about peltiers, regardless of the thread topic, let me just announce to everyone here

FEATHERS LIKES PELTIERS!!!!

HE THINKS WATERCOOLING WITHOUT THEM "SUCKS"!!!!

There ya go buddy, now you wont have to post to every thread with the same message. :rolleyes:

feathers
03-14-2004, 01:48 PM
Thank you..

But I would just like to add that Watercooling without a peltier SUX!!!


Feathers likes peltiers.

(If it's not extreme-cooling then it's just not cool).

jaydee
03-14-2004, 02:15 PM
Also use the freaking edit button instead of replying multiple times in a row to jack your post count up (as there is no other reason to do that).

feathers
03-14-2004, 02:22 PM
Not really interested in post count. It's not a competition is it?

jaydee
03-14-2004, 02:25 PM
Not really interested in post count. It's not a competition is it?
Nope. No reason to reply multiple times in a row either. Replying isn't a competition either. :D


Joe had the post count removed untill he updated to vB3. Was kinda nice....

gruntledweasel
03-14-2004, 02:31 PM
Water is only effective when you use it with peltier cooling. The two go together very well.

An interesting assertion. Too bad it was made as an off topic troll in the heatsink/fan cooling forum. Having an opinion does not make it okay to disregard common forum etiquette.

Lurk more. You might pick up on something before you make a fool out of yourself. It's worked for me.

Feathers, after checking out your website, your motive in posting here is quite transparent, and your credibility more than a bit suspect.

Quoted from website: "Discarding all the wishy-washy theory and mathematics, we know from actual use that..."

That logic will not win much respect on this forum. From what I've seen, the regulars care quite a bit about "wishy-washy mathematics".

But my favorites have gotta be these two:
"What happens when condensation forms around the CPU?: Your computer will crash.. Instant reset! Will this cause hardware damage? No."
"It's ironic that a peltier even in a meltdown situation provides protection for your CPU!"

:rolleyes:

feathers
03-14-2004, 02:41 PM
"common forum etiquette." - No. Not common at all. Never been asked to EDIT rather than REPLY before. Been on many forums and never been told to do that. Therefore I suggest you put a BIG WARNING for people like me so we know not to use the REPLY button.

"That logic will not win much respect on this forum. From what I've seen, the regulars care quite a bit about "wishy-washy mathematics" - If the regulars here are like some of the regulars who write all kinds of scare stories about peltier cooling then I certainly won't miss their respect. If all you do is theorise and tell people they can't do this or that because theory dictates - then I won't miss their respect. I actually don't think they're like you suggest here.

With regard to th comments about my website:

I can't count the number of articles I've read on peltier cooling where they conclude that peltier cooling is extremely risky and not worth the effort. And 'YES' there was even one article from an engineer who concluded that peltier cooling can make your CPU even hotter rather than cooling it down.

Condensation:

We have had instances where the insulation was insufficient. Air-leak. We didn't have the computer explode, burst into flames, melt, dissolve, implode as a result. We simply had the odd reset when the rad fans were throttled back.

Peltier meltdown:

Any particular reason that amuses you?

Again.. Speaking from practical experience rather than endless debating and theory.. A peltier can serve to protect the CPU in a meltdown situation.

It certainly protected our P4 2.4ghz 800 HT.

If you would like a demonstration then I suggest you send me an email and I will arrange it for you.

feathers
03-14-2004, 02:52 PM
"Feathers, after checking out your website, your motive in posting here is quite transparent, and your credibility more than a bit suspect. " - This is supposed to convey to other forum members that I am perhaps conman.

I suggest you arrange a meeting with me and I will show you how I apply my lack of wishy-washy theory. I have a cool CPU overclocked to 3.7ghz. It's average temp is well below ambient.

Been down to -7 celsius without any condensation and on those few occassions where we had an imperfect seal.. The computer was undamaged.

If you haven't tried a peltier system yourself then I suggest you don't make judgements on the text on my website.

Perhaps you've had a bad experience with peltier cooling? (in which case I'm sorry for you).

#Rotor
03-14-2004, 03:10 PM
Why should H2O-cooling suck without the use of Tec's

I've done both, I've even done all 3 together and I can't think of any reason why liquid cooling needs to have Tec's in order to "not suck".

true that Tec's are nice, but to be honest, the complexities involved with getting a high current adjustable power source for running with them...combined with their(Tec's) very low efficiency factor, it pretty much takes the edge off for me anyhow, as I'm more into the efficiency side of things. Besides, overclocking is more about efficiency, isn't it? :)

jaydee
03-14-2004, 03:13 PM
Why should H2O-cooling suck without the use of Tec's

I've done both, I've even done all 3 together and I can't think of any reason why liquid cooling needs to have Tec's in order to "not suck".

true that Tec's are nice, but to be honest, the complexities involved with getting a high current adjustable power source for running with them...combined with their(Tec's) very low efficiency factor, it pretty much takes the edge off for me anyhow, as I'm more into the efficiency side of things. Besides, overclocking is more about efficiency, isn't it? :)
He is just trying to sell his products on his website. Save your breath. :cool:

#Rotor
03-14-2004, 03:26 PM
hehehe :D.... trying to do that on a forum populated mostly with those that invented this hobby..... WOW! you(feathers) has guts, I have to give you that. not that there is anything wrong with that, mind you...(having guts, that is...)

this place is like what Sourceforge is to M$.... for lack of a better comparison.

feathers
03-14-2004, 03:39 PM
Rotor: I hope you're going to follow Jaydee's orders and ignore any subsequent posts from me? :-)

Every forum closes ranks to defend itself from a new threat.

What's that you're selling at CUSTOM COMPUTERS jaydee? Another forum perhaps?

Rotor:

The comment about watercooling wasn't entirely serious although I do feel strongly about the use of peltiers alongside watercooling. It may be that some people just want a watercooling system because of it's aesthetic appeal (they can be beautiful) and they are a lot of fun to own! Others perhaps just want improved cooling but with reduced noise. Ultimately it's down to personal choice.

The point you raise about power-supply demand/problems isn't really much of a problem anymore.

I actually do get very frustrated by some of the garbage I read about peltiers even from so-called engineers!

Do I have a mission to sell peltier systems?

Yes! I'm sick of seeing my friends (personal friends) with ugly grey boxes and lumps of metal and fans to cool their systems! I have one particular friend who still believes that overclocking is dangerous and will destroy your CPU!

I've been overclocking for many years and never lost a CPU!

I have considerable experience of peltiers and their support systems but this experience only came after I made a choice to ignore all of the negative stories I'd read and try it for myself.

There is nothing on my website which is based on rumours or speculation. It all comes from personal experience.

My own mission is to set the record straight about peltier cooling. Actually I should say watercooling as well - since there are so many users out there who still believe that watercooling is 'too complicated' or 'too risky' !

"there are only 10 kinds of programmers in this world! There's those that understand binary and then there's those that just don't get it at all... " - I like this and I do get it!

AntiBling
03-14-2004, 06:27 PM
Feathers,
I dont know the first thing about using peltiers, except I know what they are, and I dont want to use them. It sounds like you do. Dont quit posting here dude, share your knowledge and you may make a few bucks along the way. Thats cool . Just quit hijacking threads with your comments about how everyones system sucks, they should use peltiers, etc. OK? No hard feelings here.

feathers
03-14-2004, 06:44 PM
"He is just trying to sell his products on his website. Save your breath. " - Of course it is illegal to sell one's own products on one's own website. :-)

It's not like I'm in competition with this website. As far as I am aware this is an enthusiast site.. A place for reviews and to discuss extreme-cooling with likeminded people.

Since my company also makes new products then we also make new products available for REVIEW (to this website or any other review site).

I'm sorry if some of you can't deal with the horror of that but that's the way it is.

I don't play dumb point/click scoring games and this 'Edit not reply' rule is pretty-much unique to this forum.

It seems that some people are full of inaccurate gossip and negative thoughts when it comes to extreme-cooling. My website was created to set the record straight and cut through the bullshit.

Theory and textbooks have their place.. So long as the theory becomes practice at some point. I don't think I've ever read a positive article on peltier cooling, or one which didn't tell the reader that 'condensation will DESTROY YOUR PC!'.

My website was created to set the record straight and cut through the bullshit (I wouldn't be surprised if this site was created for the same reason).

If you see that as a bad thing then that's your problem.

If you want to accuse me of trying to con people then it becomes my problem as well.

The information that appears on my site is the result of PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE, testing and measurements.

I am always happy to demonstrate the hardware to non-believers or those who have been brainwashed.

feathers
03-14-2004, 08:31 PM
Antibling:

I will avoid hijacking threads..

Does this also mean I can't edit other people's threads?

Corso
03-14-2004, 08:52 PM
Hello all, I was looking to get some tips on eliminating condensation. Also just finished my first chiller box. Would like some comments on it. thanks

jaydee
03-14-2004, 09:10 PM
Hello all, I was looking to get some tips on eliminating condensation. Also just finished my first chiller box. Would like some comments on it. thanks
There is a whole forum dedicated to TEC on this site. http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=11


Post your questions and TEC comments there and help build up a larger user base there.

Brians256
03-14-2004, 10:55 PM
There is a whole forum dedicated to TEC on this site. http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=11


Post your questions and TEC comments there and help build up a larger user base there.

Thank you for that redirect, Jaydee116.

I'd like to post a semi-official ProCooling "mission statement" for those lurkers who might get an incorrect idea of what this community stands for.

The ProCooling community is interested in efficiency, bleeding edge performance, practical application and (most of all) extremely truthful and well documented accurate research into those areas. It doesn't have to be efficient or practical if it's bleeding edge, and so on. But, if you don't have pictures, numbers and reproducible results... be VERY CAREFUL. Certain denizens of these forums will be on your tail; I guarantee that.

So, the criticisms you may face, feathers are from those principles. If you say things without documentation you will face harsh criticism. This especially applies to blanket statements that contradict well researched "truths". If, on the other hand, you can disprove a commonly held belief, you will be lauded.

To be specific... many of us have used TECs or are still using TECs. They are well understood. Can you use a TEC and end up with a warmer CPU because of it? Sure! Undersize, undercool, or undervolt your TEC and it's easy. Can water kill your mobo? Uh, if you think it can't, you don't know what a direct short can do across your DC-DC conversion MOSFETs next to the CPU (maybe newer mobos magically detect short circuits now, but I know one of mine didn't and the magic smoke left it). I could go on, but I'm now responding to snippets of what you said, not the whole text. So, I could be missing critical context. If I have misquoted or misunderstood you, please take this in the vein of constructive criticism rather than any personal attack.

Also, many of the regulars on the board are older curmudgeons, to be blunt. They are quick to jump on someone making mistakes if they think that person is arrogant or hasn't taken the time to do research. On the other hand, we are gathered together to share knowledge, continue research and have fun with computers. Grow a thick skin, have a respectful attitude, a sensitive ear, a slowness to respond and enjoy! Note that this attitude works in RealLife(tm) too. :D

I hope this helps you understand the community. If this doesn't reflect what you think of our community, speak up and clarify.

AntiBling
03-15-2004, 05:38 AM
Feathers = Corso = Sheep

bigben2k
03-15-2004, 07:58 AM
I'm going to side with feathers, just for a brief moment (bare with me):

To me, it seems like the target is to have an "Extreme" cooling solution, and given how straight water-cooling has become so popular, it may not fall within the meaning of "Extreme". One word makes all the difference.

Personally, I believe that using a "Cascade" block falls under the definition of "Extreme". I'd mention the "Cascade SS" (one of 5?, which I have) and "Cascade XXX" (in development) water blocks, which are the best blocks, period, but there's so few of them.


That aside, feathers here seems to be presenting pelts/TECs from their positive side, and not acknowledging the negatives. That worries me.

A pelt failure (i.e. a junction going bad, a power supply failure, etc) will more than likely kill a CPU, simply because the TEC changes from being a carrier of heat, to a role of being a very good insulator. That of course only applies if the TEC sits between the CPU and water block with a coldplate, aka spacer, in between, which should give the user a few seconds or minutes to react, or an onboard monitoring and protection system to kick in.

The other issue is that while pelt cooling is indeed extreme, it's really not energy efficient, and a phase change system is much more desirable, in that aspect.


So what's this website anyways? How come it isn't within feather's profile?
My website was created to set the record straight and cut through the bullshit.

Feathers, you might not be aware, but ProCooling isn't your usual enthusiast site. We strive for the highest level of accuracy, and often get into very technical discussions. To present an idea is fine, but you have to make every effort to present the downside, as much as the upside.

In case you missed it, I'd recomend that you visit the "Testing" forum.

feathers
03-15-2004, 08:35 AM
Thanks for your post, Brian256.

It does indeed help me to understand this community.

With regard to some of the things stated on my website:

I am well aware of the dangers of water+electronic components. I lost a neon-tube driver recently when a drop of coolant got into the small air-vent of unit.

My text wasn't suggesting that water doesn't kill electronic components. Just that an imperfect insulative seal around a CPU doesn't=instant death for the computer. In our experience it most commonly results in a crash. Again.. This is not based on theory or gossip but from practical experience. How can we produce figures which back up something like that? I guess we could have a poll to find out how many customers lost a motherboard when condensation occured?

"Can you use a TEC and end up with a warmer CPU because of it? Sure! Undersize, undercool, or undervolt your TEC and it's easy" - Can you buy a Swiftcech MCX4000 or Thermalright SP97 to replace your standard issue aluminium heatsink and end up with higher temps than before? Sure... If the heatsink isn't fitted right or you use vaseline instead of thermal transfer compound.

Same applies to watercooling.. How many posts have you read from people who have just switched to water and found their temps aren't any lower? - I read such posts all the time but I don't conclude that watercooling is therefore a waste of time. And yet that is exactly what many so-called experts have concluded about peltier cooling.

I have read countless pieces about peltier cooling with countless pages of facts, graphs and figures to show why it's not worth the effort. Strange then that I have been selling thermo systems to customers for several years and no one has emailed to tell me their mobo was destroyed by condensation or that their peltier destroyed the CPU!

When I started out in the business of peltier cooling - I was simply selling the plates themselves. Over the course of several years we have had great interest from people who want to switch to air-cooled peltier systems. We do all we can to explain to potential customers that air-cooling isn't effective and that water-cooled peltiers are the way to go.

I have found that many people are still afraid of watercooling because they believe it's complicated and/or risky to use. Again, I know from personal experience (and not simply from 2nd-hand theory) that watercooling can be very safe. Of course there are always risks, but those risks can be minimised by using good quality components and by careful installation. And so it is with peltier cooling.

I have a personal mission not just to make people more aware of the non-complexity of a peltier system, but to promote the use of watercooling systems as well.

My website helps to set the record straight about peltier cooling and I can well understand that many of the scare-mongers or misled would certainly object to it!

I hope that in time we will see similar websites with a more positive understanding of peltier cooling.

If any of your old curmudgeons would like to show facts and statistics for mobo death caused by poor thermal insulation then I would be happy to read. If no such facts exist and if all they have is theory then I suggest they actually back up their theory with practical demonstrations. That's certainly how I've learned NOT to be afraid of peltier cooling.

I would also like to see some of their statistics for CPU death caused by a dying peltier.

"Grow a thick skin, have a respectful attitude, a sensitive ear, a slowness to respond and enjoy! Note that this attitude works in RealLife(tm) too. " - Good advice I reckon. Something I should certainly try to remember as much as possible.

:-)

feathers
03-15-2004, 08:56 AM
BigBen2k:

Can you give more info on: "I'd mention the "Cascade SS" (one of 5?, which I have) and "Cascade XXX" (in development) water blocks" ?

"That aside, feathers here seems to be presenting pelts/TECs from their positive side, and not acknowledging the negatives. That worries me." - Although you perhaps haven't visited my site yet.. It was created in response to all othe negative scaremongers out there who do nothing but frighten people away from peltier cooling.

I am aware that there are dangers with any extreme-cooling system.. Peltier cooling certainly has an element of risk (I will add words to that effect on my site) but the risks have been greatly exaggerated by many people.

Re: a failing peltier..

Most mobo/cpus have temperature sensors (I know it's been an issue for AMD but not for Intel). It is the user's responsibility to ensure that their mobo/cpu shuts down in the event of thermal overload (I say it's the user's responsibility because such mobos and cpus are easily obtainable with auto shutdown facilities).

An Intel CPU has in-built thermal shutdown at approx 150c (as mentioned on Intel's website).

Let's take my own system as an example:

The mobo has been set to shutdown if the temp goes above 60 celsius.

I use Winbond hardware doctor (running under windows) and it's currently set to shutdown the computer if the CPU reaches 35 celsius (I've had to raise the shutdown temp to 35 because I've just pushed up the core voltage for a new overclock to 3.7ghz). The average CPU temp is 10 celsius but it can rise to 17c when many apps are running.

If the peltier develops a problem (or pelt's PSU) then there will be a temp rise. The system will shutdown and since my pelt's external power supply is controlled by a little ATX Starter device then the computer has full control of the pelt's PSU!

"The other issue is that while pelt cooling is indeed extreme, it's really not energy efficient, and a phase change system is much more desirable, in that aspect." - Agreed... But a suitable peltier and PSU can be bought for £100.

"To present an idea is fine, but you have to make every effort to present the downside, as much as the upside." - Thanks for the advice, Ben.

I will stop by the testing section..

feathers
03-15-2004, 09:09 AM
PS. We have had a peltier meltdown (when the waterpump was switched-off). This was before we had the pump and peltier under computer control. The peltier got so hot it melted the lucite top of the DD Maze 3-1 waterblock. It took 1.5 cans of C02 to cool the block down enough to remove it from the computer. Even so, it still bubbles and sizzled when it was dropped in a bowl of water!

The P4 2.4ghz HT 800 was undamaged and is still working to this day.

Perhaps someone would also like to remind us of the dangers of static on sensitive electronic components?

The said P4 chip has also be crushed under a swiftech MCX4000 heatsink (had it's pins bent and they had to be bent back with tweezers). The chip has been dropped onto a graphics card (while being removed from it's socket). It landed pin-side down. The chip has been picked-up and handled by a friend (we thought it was dead at the time due to it's failure to start.. We later discovered the problem was caused by a Bios setting).

The P4 chip has gone through hell and yet it still works perfectly and overclocks from 2.4 to 3.4 ghz!

Now I know that Static can kill sensitive components (I have a background in digital electronics) but theory dictates that a P4 chip probably wouln't survive any of these catastrophies.

My point is that until you've actually been there and done it then you can theorise all you like! Doesn't mean that your theory is always right or that the end result is always the same!

feathers
03-15-2004, 09:10 AM
If anyone would like to see pics of the melted DD Maze 3-1?

The peltier is still sandwiched between the coldplate and waterblock..

:-)

jaydee
03-15-2004, 09:12 AM
If anyone would like to see pics of the melted DD Maze 3-1?

The peltier is still sandwiched between the coldplate and waterblock..

:-)
Of course! :) Carnage rules! :evilaugh:

feathers
03-15-2004, 09:52 AM
Uploaded for your viewing pleasure..

http://www.icetec-uk.com/icetec/temp/melted_3-1.htm

I've only recently switched to a new CPU and that was only ordered because I thought the 2.4ghz had been damaged by a Swiftech MCX4000 heatsink.

For your info:

The DD Maze 3-1 was melted on the day after Christmas. Didn't have a spare waterblock to replace it and so I had to fit a Thermalright SLK heatsink. Eventually I installed a Swiftech MCX4000 air heatsink to test with peltier. It worked upto a point but of course air-cooling of peltier isn't very good. While making adjustments to the MCX4000 it crushed the CPU and bent some of it's pins. After that the CPU didn't work. A replacement was ordered (3ghz HT 800) and when it arrived.. It too didn't work! Fault was traced to an incorrect setting in bios and so it transpired that both CPUs were working!

I put the new one up for sale on Ebay (cos I wasn't impressed by it's overclocking). Got to the last day of auction and then I cancelled and decided to give the new chip another try. Ran it for a week at 3.5ghz @ default core voltage and now it's been increased to 3.7ghz.

The old P4 2.4 is gathering dust. It's one tough little CPU and it's happy to run at 3.4 so long as it's kept cool.

The waterblock was melted by a 130 W peltier.

Now using a DD Maze 4-1.

bigben2k
03-15-2004, 05:03 PM
BigBen2k:

Can you give more info on: "I'd mention the "Cascade SS" (one of 5?, which I have) and "Cascade XXX" (in development) water blocks" ?

...

"The other issue is that while pelt cooling is indeed extreme, it's really not energy efficient, and a phase change system is much more desirable, in that aspect." - Agreed... But a suitable peltier and PSU can be bought for £100.


Nice site! ( www.icetek-uk.com )


Going over the info you posted, you caught a lot of good info. You did however miss one point: the cold plate (aka spacer) purpose is to allow you to clamp the peltier to the block, and is required because that clamping pressure is beyond what a CPU can handle. That aside, you got the other purpose of the cold plate correct. (more info on this here: http://www.procooling.com/articles/html/clamping_the_peltier__just_how.php )

You also appear to have missed that Intel specs call for an operational temperature of no less than the freezing point (not a concern if you're an enthusiast, but it is if you offer related products).

As for the cost, I was referring to the operational cost, not the purchase cost. Yes, you can slap something together pretty cheap, but the power usage is much higher than with a phase change system. A pelt can require more power than it can move, while a phase change unit would only require 1/3 of the power it moves. In most extremes, you use both. ;)

The condensation issue has the potential to ruin a CPU and/or a motherboard, if no proper precautions have been taken. You may have gotten lucky, but it is quite possible to loose one or the other, to a single drop of water. For that reason, we recomend coating the whole motherboard and related peripheral cards with "conformal coating" (well, I recomend it!), as detailed here:
http://www.procooling.com/articles/html/chems_of_oc_n_and_super_coolin.php

That aside, water cooling will still outperform an air cooling solution, as has been measurably demonstrated here:
http://www.overclockers.com/articles373/wbsum.asp
and here:
http://www.overclockers.com/articles876/

(So to say that water cooling isn't worth it, is "innacurate"). There's also the quiet aspect of water cooling, that is so attractive, over an air cooled one.


The "Cascade" water block idea first appeared here:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=6101

then evolved through here:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=6666
(and in the OCAU Forums)

and is available here:
http://www.employees.org/~slf/lrwb/

Stew (Cathar) and I talked about it, and aside from the "XXX" version that's in development, it's not going to be beaten any time soon (so we're both working secretly on different ideas...;) ).

feathers
03-15-2004, 06:44 PM
Thanks for the comments, BigBen.

Constructive criticism is always appreciated. Your comments will certainly result in a few changes and additions to the Icetec website.

"but it is if you offer related products" - What products?

Re: condensation.. We've probably gone to the other extreme on the Icetek site of making it all seem as the there are no real risks (I suspect this is the result of a strong desire to redress the balance and to show people that peltier cooling isn't as difficult or risky as they were led to believe). I will add a piece on the dangers of water and even condensation to some extent. What I won't do is tell people that the slightest air-leak resulting in condensation will destroy their PC (as others have done). This is simply not our experience of minor condensation (nor of our customers). If customers follow the same steps we outline in our tutorial section then they should get a pretty good insulative seal.

The conformal coating is a good idea and it will certainly be added to our shop (as well as recommended to customers).

I followed the links for the jet waterblock. Very interesting. I've also bookmarked the link to the website and I will be reading up on it tomorrow (later today).

Thanks!

Raf Baker.

BillA
03-15-2004, 07:11 PM
jeez, if Ben can go there, why not me too ?

feathers
your site is a SALES site
you have limited mfgrs data on ONE TEC, no more (on ANY item)
no performance charts, nothing

I am suspecting you work with P4s only
- where clock throttling is saving your butt, but you don't even know it !

may I be so cruel as to suggest you put your 130W (Qmax) TEC on a OCed Athlon ?

feathers
you have come here to bs us about your technical expertise, but I am not buying
and your ignorance is so vast you do not 'see' why a 130W TEC cannot cool a P4 w/o throttling

proof ? -> here is some genuine TEC data
http://thermal-management-testing.com/dt%20vs%20load%20comp.gif

the MCW5002-T uses a 225W TEC
the MCW5360-T uses a 360W TEC

now you on your site are going to tell us that a 130W TEC is good to go ?

you need to trash your puffed up verbiage and start dealing with real numbers

(pleeze folks, the MCW5360-T is an 'industrial' product not available to OCers)

EDIT:
I should add that the "heat die load, Watts" is I*E, for 'Radiate' kinds of CPU Wattage increase by ~30% the values shown

bigben2k
03-15-2004, 08:04 PM
I haven't even gotten to that part!

Yes, a 130W TEC is insufficient. Proof? Check out the icetek Forums, and the user that complains about wild temp swings, and performance under par. Heck there was a time when one was happy with an 80W TEC, but that was even before I came here! Bill's point is that you ought to demonstrate (as I do poorly) that you understand the numbers behind it all. Last I checked, DangerDen was selling 170 and 220W TECs (checking... they sell 226, 169, 80, 120 and 172).


Today's heatloads easily hit 80W, without any OC, and can hit upwards of 120 Watts. A TEC runs under volted (as is required, for the sake of efficiency), on top of which only a portion of its heat transfer power run efficiently (what did we estimate? 70 to 80%?) simply because of the application.

The "products" I was referring to, is what you are selling: you should demonstrate that you are aware of the thermal limitations (and properties) of the processors which your product proposes to cool.


(Bill: I thought you said that 3 gpm wasn't worth it? What's with the 11.4 lpm test results?)

feathers
03-15-2004, 10:07 PM
The grumpy bastard was correct on a few points but wrong on many others.

We sell to both AMD and Intel users (although we only use Intel ourselves). We are aware of the heat problems associated with AMD CPUs (amongst many other problems) and we are aware that a TEC130 isn't suitable for ALL CPUs and as time goes by then we will have to switch to higher power units. This is why we're making arrangements to purchase devices upto 280 Watts from a Russian manufacturer.

The TEC130 has given very good performance since we first began selling it some time ago.

The performance data shown was based on an Intel CPU overclocked from 2.4 to 3.2

In case you hadn't noticed.. The website is new and the shop has only recently opened. This is the reason the stock-list is very small at the moment.

Those higher wattage peltiers are a priority 'yes'.
We will be adding them to our site 'yes'.
We will be selling 220W or higher pelts in future 'yes'.

It's interesting that UNREGISTERED (aka BillA) has chosen a SWIFTECH chart with which to make his point.

Swiftech went to some considerable expense to develop their air-cooled peltier heatsink (based on 220W pelt) only to discover that it's performance vs noise vs cooling was unacceptable (I know this from personal contact with Swiftech). No doubt BillA would have launched a similar attack on Swiftech for wasting time on such a flawed design?

"your site is a SALES site" - In your opinion. It's a sales site because it has a shop, right?

Do you seek to elevate your status within this community with that particular observation, Bill?

Or are you simply the next in line trying to establish dominance?

I suggest you learn to ease off and don't make too many assumptions.................

I am not going to apologise for owning a site which dares to sell computer hardware.

feathers
03-15-2004, 10:48 PM
BigBen:

"The "products" I was referring to, is what you are selling: you should demonstrate that you are aware of the thermal limitations (and properties) of the processors which your product proposes to cool." - I can certainly agree with that. I am certainly aware that nothing remains the same for very long in this industry. I have worked very hard over the past few years.. Advertising, research, testing, contacting companies, acquiring new hardware, answering customer queries, preparing customer orders etc.. As I've said: The TEC130 has been selling for some considerable time but I am well aware that we can no longer recommend it for CPU cooling (I actually don't need a pompous ass to tell me that - BillA). Why don't we have these higher wattage peltiers available NOW? For the above reasons of workload and schedules. The site only went active last month. The shop only went active from March 1st. Since I am contact with different peltier suppliers then the decision has to be made as to which supplier best suits our needs. Coupled to this we are making arrangements to sell a new line of professional watercooling parts.

I should also point out for any other pompous arses out there that we don't only supply to computer users. Since we began selling peltiers several years ago we have been selling to universities and research labs. It is only over our more recent history that the emphasis turned to computer cooling.

(From this point on I will ignore any replies (such as BillA's) where the postee makes it clear that he is only interested in starting a fight. I don't have a problem with someone who raises issues in a helpful manner (always helps to add a touch of humour as well). I do have a problem with posts like yours BillA Unregistered. Even though you raise some relevant concerns - it is done solely with the intention of maintaining/elevating your status within the community).

I certainly welcome ideas, suggestions from well intentioned, friendly, lighthearted individuals.

gruntledweasel
03-16-2004, 12:34 AM
I do have a problem with posts like yours BillA Unregistered. Even though you raise some relevant concerns - it is done solely with the intention of maintaining/elevating your status within the community).

I suggest you dig through some old threads to find out why BillA has swiftech data readily available...and why he is qualified to be in such a position? I don't think he's one to get into a pissing contest to stroke his ego. (Although it is kinda funny to see someone lecturing Bill on swiftech products... :D ) Personally, I am much more worried about my own objectivity and methodology than Bill's. I'm not saying one should hang on his every word and data point or some such...but he's worth paying attention to. The day he endorses the testing methodology of one of those "9/10 stars editors choice" articles full of marketing fluff is the day I give away my watercooled pc and switch to an iMac.

Feathers, you may find these links helpful...
peltier engineering data (http://www.tetech.com/publications/pubs/IECEC1980RJB.pdf)
kryotherm software (http://www.kryotherm.ru/soft.htm)
intel p4 technical specs (http://developer.intel.com/design/pentium4/datashts/29864312.pdf)
p4 thermal design guidelines (http://developer.intel.com/design/pentium4/guides/24988903.pdf)

Bill and Ben are right...130 watt pelt on a 80-90 watt heat source is not the best plan. If they're wrong, run the numbers and show them where they messed up. If there's a discrepancy between your experimental results and theoretical results, you should be able to pin down exactly where the two diverged. These theories you dismiss so readily were not simply pulled out of some engineer's ass. "Well, I got different results testing so you must be mistaken" is just not a convincing argument without a very clear and detailed writeup of the (sound) testing methodology that produced them. You will learn a lot if you try to understand the tech docs and do the math...I've still got a lot to learn, but I know I'm glad I spent the time trying to wrap my head around that first url I linked. The forums here are also a very helpful resource.

Perhaps the thread should be moved? Whether we have a constructive discussion or not, it doesn't seem to belong in the heatsink/fan fourm.

feathers
03-16-2004, 01:30 AM
BillA may have valid points but he also jumped to some wrong conclusions about me. I guess he's a 'shoot first kind of a guy'. I'm not too concerned about his background when his foreground attitude sucks.

Ok.. 130 W on an 80-90 watt heat-source works very well thank you (highest temp=ambient)

The 130W gives great performance for a 60W heat-source (ie P4 2.4ghz HT 800 and even when O/Cd to 3.2ghz) = 19c after 10 x CPU burn-in cycles on Sisoft Sandra.

The 130W gives good results on an 80W core and acceptable (sub-ambient to ambient) on a 90W core.

Where I concur with Bill & Ben is that beyond 90W the peltier struggles.

I have taken measurments for the 130W from a core power range of 60W to 120W.

I use Sisoft Sandra's CPU+Multimedia Burn-In test to establish the effectiveness of the peltier. I run the Burn-in for at least 10 cycles generally.

What's important to understand is that the Sisoft Sandra Burn-in for CPU puts the CPU through a much tougher assault course than your average 3d computer game.

I have loads of Burn-in tests on my system extending back over the past 12 months. All tests conducted on the 130W peltier with the CPU overclocked to 3.2 or higher and with core voltages from default upto 1.9 volts.

I have more recent tests recorded by a CPU logging program.. Tests which show the CPU temps during some of the latest 3d games (Chaser, UT2003 etc). CPU= 3ghz P4 800 HT O/Cd to 3.5ghz. If memory serves me correct then it's core will generate approx 70w at the default voltage? The highest temp recorded during gameplay was 14.xx celsius. Not bad for a 130W pelt, right?

If anyone would like to see all of these performance tests then I can upload them or send them out in zipped archives?

"These theories you dismiss so readily were not simply pulled out of some engineer's ass. "Well, I got different results testing so you must be mistaken" is just not a convincing argument without a very clear and detailed writeup of the (sound) testing methodology that produced them. You will learn a lot if you try to understand the tech docs and do the math.." - Agreed.. I think the wording on my site needs to be changed. Also the comments about "Watercooling being a waste of time without peltier" - was too extreme.

It's ironic that while some of you interpret my site simply as a sales site from someone with no regard for facts and figures.. I actually do follow theory, data and rules to some extent.

My wording (icetec site) suggests that I don't place any value on rules or guidelines. What you should understand is that the site isn't just a means to sell products.. It was born out of a genuine determination to cut through some of the bullshit out there.. But as you can clearly see.. I have taken this desire to break free - too far in many ways!

Your comments (the genuinely helpful, positive ones) will certainly be listened to and used to make the website more accurate in some areas.

What I won't be doing is feeding others with endless warnings about the dangers of peltier cooling (or any form of extreme cooling!).

The point about the 130 w peltier is certainly a priority issue for me (it was an issue even before I came to the forum.. Why? Because I actually DO research the latest CPUs in order to learn about their O/C capability and their wattage!).

I value constructive criticism and your words will have an impact on my website (and on my own approach as well).

If anyone wants to see the test data? Just ask.

EDIT: I do have some of last year's Sandra data on my website. The charts and CPU temps are clearly shown (there are two links on my site which show that data!)

EDIT x 2: "I use Sisoft Sandra's CPU+Multimedia Burn-In test to establish the effectiveness of the peltier. I run the Burn-in for at least 10 cycles generally." - This is the point I try to make on my site about "wishy-washy theory" (It seems
that you now have the impression that I regard all testing/data as useless).

What I actually meant was that if all you do is theorise.. You're not likely to get very far (and certainly the negativity surrounding peltier cooling would suggest that this is so). What I DIDN'T MEAN TO SUGGEST is that testing and performance data are useless. I spend MANY HOURS TESTING and recording the data. You will find some of that data on my website (I have much more on my Hdisk!).

The bottom line is that the icetec site is now too extreme and too anti-establishment (too many personal feelings and bitter resentment directed at those peltier scaremongers (they used to scare the crap out of me).

The performance fiqures I quote in this reply are not theory or make believe. They are measurements I have taken myself over a long period of time.

EDIT x 3: I have looked into Phase-Change cooling in the past. I would love to try it at some stage. Also interested in those cascade waterblocks (purely for their clever design and beautiful workpersonship).

AntiBling
03-16-2004, 02:54 AM
From your website...

The TEC130W is ideally suited for CPU cooling due to it's power rating and current requirements. Even with the latest high-performance computer systems and extreme overclocking - the TEC130W is able to take the CPU to zero celsius and below.

From your posts...

The 130W gives good results on an 80W core and acceptable (sub-ambient to ambient) on a 90W core.

The point about the 130 w peltier is certainly a priority issue for me (it was an issue even before I came to the forum.. Why? Because I actually DO research the latest CPUs in order to learn about their O/C capability and their wattage!).

We sell to both AMD and Intel users (although we only use Intel ourselves). We are aware of the heat problems associated with AMD CPUs (amongst many other problems) and we are aware that a TEC130 isn't suitable for ALL CPUs and as time goes by then we will have to switch to higher power units. This is why we're making arrangements to purchase devices upto 280 Watts from a Russian manufacturer.

end quotes...



Instead of spending your time getting free advertising here, you should be updating your site to remove the BS. I don't know peltiers, but I know who NOT to learn about them from. You should be a politician feathers.

feathers
03-16-2004, 03:11 AM
Your turn again is it?

(Nice to see you're still making regular visits to the site).

Thanks for the quotes.. Yes.. As u can see.. Some parts of the website do need to be changed. I have said this will be taken care of. I suggest you find something else to do other than bitch at me.

Some of you seem very nice and amiable while others show the more typical 'clique mentality'.

Is there anyone else who wants to step forward and echo the antibling's words?

AntiBling
03-16-2004, 03:15 AM
Thanks but no thanks, I'm enjoying bitching at you. Do you have a garage full of underpowered peltiers you need to unload on noobs like me? Now go fix your website!

feathers
03-16-2004, 03:22 AM
Special discount for blings.

What's your current CPU temp? I'll bet mine is lower than yours (therefore I must be superior to you and you will be my bitch).

Les
03-16-2004, 03:28 AM
Bill.
Your graph is reminiscent of the ancient ""Radiate Calculated"CPU Load v "In Socket" DeltaTcpu - water " compilation.
http://www.jr001b4751.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SLAJa.jpg

However, in the light of the work by Incoherent (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=8433) and pHaestus (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=8892) , I tend to think that 100% Radiate(type) calculated Wattages maybe closer than 70%..
Not sure,but think your graph represents an "Insulated Die"(Ri=15 c/w) . Would suggest that the graph for a "Board-mounted Die"(Ri=1 ish?) would have a similar gradient to that for a CPU(using Radiate(type) Wattage).
An illustration of Kryotherm predictions:
http://www.jr001b4751.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SLAJ1.jpg

feathers
03-16-2004, 04:21 AM
Interesting.. Those graphs seem to indicate only marginally better expected performance over the actual performance data from our TEC130s run at 12 volts. Or to put it another way.. Based on the actual performance obtained from our TEC130s.. The above 172W indicates very poor performance.

satanicoo
03-16-2004, 05:28 AM
If i have learned one thing about extreme cooling, is that temperature that you see:
-first is not accurate;
-second it ONLY means the thermal diode is being cooled better, not the CPU.

Why did Cathar's wc system beated an vapochill?
I would say because it cools better hotspots then the vapo.

So, i ask pros 1 question: does this happen with peltiers also?
Or is it just another 'vapochill' ?

feathers
03-16-2004, 05:38 AM
"-second it ONLY means the thermal diode is being cooled better, not the CPU." - That's right.. However.. My own system places the peltier over the CPU itself and bypasses the Thermal diode. What this means is that although the thermal diode reads a temp of 68 celsius at idle.. The working CPU is actually cooled to -15c by the 40W peltier.

I really can't comment on Vapor cooling but I've heard it's a complete waste of time (if the cold vapor leaks then you will die within 60 seconds because it tends to suck the air from the room).

satanicoo
03-16-2004, 05:46 AM
No no no, i mean the on-die thermal diode, the one that is inside the CPU, and that one is never as hot as the part of the cpu that makes the calculations (Hot-Spots)

What i meant by vapo is Vapochill, a phase-change unit weaker than Prometeia, but that everibothy thought it was powerfuller then any water system.

Cathar proved them wrong, i wounder if he can do the same about peltiers?

feathers
03-16-2004, 05:57 AM
:-)

I was joking...

Who is this Cathar? Is there a link to his piece on phase change vs water?

Regular water or chilled water?

I can't really imagine ordinary water being more effective than phase-change (but then I've never owned such a system and so my doubts would merely be speculative doubts based on rumours and theory without any absolute grounding in reality).

Riscoo
03-16-2004, 06:00 AM
Of course you where...

feathers
03-16-2004, 06:04 AM
Ok, I was serious - but not about the 40W peltier.

I see.. I looked at the cascade last night. It's a nice looking waterblock!

Thanks for the link.

satanicoo
03-16-2004, 06:11 AM
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?s=&threadid=202666

Edit:
You have to register, but those are also good forums.
Cathar is the developer of cascade, the best wb ATM.

What about a cascade + chilled water? :drool:

BillA
03-16-2004, 09:01 AM
The grumpy bastard was correct on a few points but wrong on many others.
. . . . . .
It's interesting that UNREGISTERED (aka BillA) has chosen a SWIFTECH chart with which to make his point.

Swiftech went to some considerable expense to develop their air-cooled peltier heatsink (based on 220W pelt) only to discover that it's performance vs noise vs cooling was unacceptable (I know this from personal contact with Swiftech). No doubt BillA would have launched a similar attack on Swiftech for wasting time on such a flawed design?

"your site is a SALES site" - In your opinion. It's a sales site because it has a shop, right?

Do you seek to elevate your status within this community with that particular observation, Bill?

Or are you simply the next in line trying to establish dominance?

I suggest you learn to ease off and don't make too many assumptions.................

I am not going to apologise for owning a site which dares to sell computer hardware.
you are flying blind kiddo, talk with someone, you haven't a clue as to the who, what, and why

feathers
03-16-2004, 09:25 AM
Yes, of course Unreg.

Thanks for your kind input.

Would you care to share your own experience of peltier systems with me?

(I am generally interested to hear what people have to say).

bigben2k
03-16-2004, 09:50 AM
If it's any help... Bill is THE pioneer of testing. Dismiss him all you want, but he's more than qualified to talk about what he does. That aside, yes, he'll occasionally jump to conclusions, but there's always something wise in his words, if you can put the negativity aside, as all people who run a Forum have done (hence the warning: "Beware, he's grumpy!").

Bill's left his testing days behind, as he was invited to join the Swiftech team last year (and now tests for them). Whatever Swiftech did before Bill joined, is irrelevant here.


The other reason that referred you to the testing Forum (you have to dig up the older threads) is because you can quickly find out that motherboard temperature readings are grossly innacurate. Testing is a LOT more complicated than it looks like.

In this particular case, you could use a heat die (and temp probe) as well as a temp probe within the cold plate, and a controlled cooling solution. You can compare the results to your TEC's expected response curve, and see for yourself the real results: the actual efficiency, then compare it to a water cooled solution.


I haven't even come close to approaching TEC testing, but I started a website for water cooled testing (in my sig).


Let me put everyone's comments into a perspective that would give you a better idea of why ProCooling is around: Would you be able to control the TEC so that it maintains a CPU temp of say, 5 deg C, no matter what the CPU is doing? ;)

BillA
03-16-2004, 10:01 AM
VP of Engn at Swiftech
for starters, look here at some TEC devices (http://www.swiftnets.com/products.asp)
the MCX4000-T™ is listed on the front page dropdown
- we just finished a run of several hundred air cooled TEC heads for an industrial client
note that having experienced competent engineers as customers permits the effective utilization of devices that are 'too complicated' for the typical DIY market
(did I say that gently enough ?)

your attention is drawn to the MCW-CHILL, about which pHaestus had a little thread here (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=8126)

the graph posted above is one of 20 or 30 related to TEC device testing

YOUR qualifications will be evaluated when you post your first data set
(so we can evaluate just how well you understand, and can execute a test program)

EDIT: yes Ben, we sell those too

msv
03-16-2004, 10:02 AM
Yes, of course Unreg.

Thanks for your kind input.

Would you care to share your own experience of peltier systems with me?

(I am generally interested to hear what people have to say).


Are You sure You´ve grown thick hide yet?
At least You´re going to get an answer well based on experience. Quite a lot of experience, in fact. Pay heed.
regards
Mikael S.

feathers
03-16-2004, 10:24 AM
"Bill is THE pioneer of testing. Dismiss him all you want, but he's more than qualified to talk about what he does." - Well if he ever finds the 'right stuff' to talk about what it is he does, then I might be inclined to listen. If all he does however - is make judgements and assumptions then he will be wasting his time with me. I don't care how many disciples jump to his defense.. If the man is really that smart then I might also expect him not to write someone off in such a pompous way. Bottom line is that he doesn't know the amount of testing that's been done here. We've been selling these things for several years and never had a single one returned due to 'poor performance'. We've had nothing but positive comments from customers.

Now I fully accept that things are changing rapidly and that the 130W has had it's day as far as cooling goes for the latest designs. We already knew this anyhow.. It's just that we are still in the process of completing the website and also acquiring a new range of stock.

Would I be able to maintain a TEC's temperature at a set value? If I put my mind to it, yes. I have a workshop full of electronic components, testing gear, design books, PIC programming tools along with a number of years experience with digital and analog circuit design. Perhaps we will offer a system which maintain's the TEC's temp at ambient for some customers or one which keeps the temp at zero. I don't know at this stage, but there are plenty of options.

I have been more than ready to accept criticism or advice from people on this forum. I draw the line however, at miserable sh*ts (and this isn't aimed solely at Bill) who stand in line to jump on someone for entertainment.

So, I'm wrong about Bill, am I? Well perhaps he's wrong about me too..

I want to see if he is capable of positive output as well as negative?

EDIT:

"note that having experienced competent engineers as customers permits the effective utilization of devices that are 'too complicated' for the typical DIY market
(did I say that gently enough ?)" - So you're saying the average joe is too dumb to use a Swiftech MCX4000-T without frying his CPU?

EDIT-2:

"for starters, look here at some TEC devices
the MCX4000-T™ is listed on the front page dropdown" - I looked and I have seen it before. I actually have a Swiftech MCX4000 which is essentially the same as the 'T' but without the peltier+coldplate. As heatsinks go it's very nice but your advertising suggests an 80CFM to cool it. I happen to know from experience that an 80CFM fan to cool even a 130W peltier yields poor results. I wonder how it is then that your ad can recommend an 80CFM fan (not very powerful) for a 226W peltier?

Your most recent comment about the MCX4000-T being 'too complicated' for chimps probably serves to illustrate my point better. We have some customers who use the 130W cooled by Thermalright SLK heatsink with dual coldplate (mod). The reported temps are pretty similar to that displayed in your MCX462-T's chart. Since the customer in question is using a 130W pelt then I'm just wondering how it is that your 226 pelt is able to deliver the same temps with a fan which is absolutely and utterly inadequate? We know from experience that a heatsink such as the 462-T or MCX4000-T can only perform satisfactorily with the addition of a custom air-delivery system! Is this what you delicately refer to in your 'too complicated for DIY market' ?

Are you going to insist that the MCX4000-T with 226W pelt cooled by an 80CFM fan can perform satisfactorily?

BillA
03-16-2004, 12:45 PM
show us a image of your MCX4000 after you converted it to a MCX4000-T please

yes feathers,
I am directly questioning YOUR ability to EFFECTIVELY add a TEC to the MCX4000
no words please, just the images of the assembled TEC unit
(and if my suppositions are shown incorrect by your images (no words, eh ?), I will retract those incorrect statements I may have made)

your questions about temperatures are revealing:
"Since the customer in question is using a 130W pelt then I'm just wondering how it is that your 226 pelt is able to deliver the same temps with a fan which is absolutely and utterly inadequate?"

perfectly clear to me
you need to do some testing at high heat loads to reveal the specifics of the individual components' temperature gradients
- when I said you did not have a clue I was not joking, now you are demonstrating the 'depth' of your knowledge

start posting hard data, shit can the words

redleader
03-16-2004, 01:29 PM
Nevermind. I don't want a part of this thread.

feathers
03-16-2004, 01:49 PM
show us a image of your MCX4000 after you converted it to a MCX4000-T please

yes feathers,
I am directly questioning YOUR ability to EFFECTIVELY add a TEC to the MCX4000
no words please, just the images of the assembled TEC unit
(and if my suppositions are shown incorrect by your images (no words, eh ?), I will retract those incorrect statements I may have made)

your questions about temperatures are revealing:
"Since the customer in question is using a 130W pelt then I'm just wondering how it is that your 226 pelt is able to deliver the same temps with a fan which is absolutely and utterly inadequate?"

perfectly clear to me
you need to do some testing at high heat loads to reveal the specifics of the individual components' temperature gradients
- when I said you did not have a clue I was not joking, now you are demonstrating the 'depth' of your knowledge

start posting hard data, shit can the words

"show us a image of your MCX4000 after you converted it to a MCX4000-T please" - Nowhere in my text did I state that I converted the MCX4000 to the 'T' variant. What I said was: 'the MCX4000 is essentially the same heatsink as the 'T' (with an integrated coldplate/insulation and 220W TEC). Are you going to tell me that the MCX4000 as described on your site is an entirely different heatsink? If you intend to do that then please explain why both heatsinks have the same designation code?

Uhhh.. You didn't answer my questions/observations about the 462-T or the 4000-T? How can Swiftech claim that an 80CFM fan is sufficient to cool these units with a 220W peltier? I know from testing that it isn't. So.. Will you or will you not explain your comment about the MCX4000-T now being sold only to industry?

The issue here isn't what we have done with an MCX4000. It is how Swiftech can claim on their website that an 80CFM fan is sufficient to cool the MCX4000-T with 220W peltier!?? I suspect you have avoided answering this question because we both know that an 80CFM can't cool an MCX4000-T with 220W peltier.

I put it to you sir, that this is why you made the comment about the 4000-T being sold only to industry/professionals. I very much doubt those 'professionals' are cooling the heatsink with an 80CFM fan! I suggest that this was the reason Swiftech withdrew the mcx4000-T from sale to the 'ordinary user'.

BillA
03-16-2004, 02:50 PM
yea redleader, I screwed up

last run feathers:
numbers, quote specific test results
words don't count (look how easily I mis-understood you to have tested a Swiftech TEC product)
be assured that few here may care what you think, but ALL will have an interest in actual test data

got that ?
data, numbers, defined relationships

feathers
03-16-2004, 03:02 PM
"(look how easily I mis-understood you to have tested a Swiftech TEC product)" -

You misunderstood because you so full of it (That's kind of what I've been trying to tell you from day 1 !)

You made the same pompous judgements about me in your very first message!

You misunderstand so easily because you act like a jerk. Simple as that! :-)

Let the record show that AKA BILLA refused to answer the questions concerning the Swiftech MCX4000-T and 80CFM Fan.

(I know I can be pompous as well.. It's just that you seem to do it on a much grander scale!)

I suggest that you avoided answering that question because you know that you/swiftech: f*cked up!

:-)

I may be an ignorant schmuck as far as you're concerned.. But you can hardly point your little pointy-finger at me when you have such glaringly false and inaccurate garbage on your own site!

Duh!

Ladies and gentlemen.. I put it to you that said heatsink (MCX4000-T) could in no way be cooled by a conventional fan rated at 80CFM!

I guess your fan-club will stay silent on that one, hey?

:-)

jaydee
03-16-2004, 03:10 PM
Ladies and gentlemen.. I put it to you that said heatsink (MCX4000-T) could in no way be cooled by a conventional fan rated at 80CFM!

I guess your fan-club will stay silent on that one, hey?

:-)
Ummm, right off their webpage:


Features :

The MCX4000-T™ is a fully assembled air-cooled thermoelectric (Peltier) solution designed to manage thermal loads of up to 100 Watts. The product is intended for applications where liquid cooling is not an option.

Features highlights:

226 Watts Thermoelectric module

Optimal cooling capacity: will dissipate 70 Watts continuous thermal load to ambient temperature with 80CFM fan.


Hybrid copper base, thin aluminum pin heatsink: thanks to it's massive 3/8" thick copper base, the MCX4000-T™ is the first commercial air-cooled heatsink on the market capable of absorbing, and dissipating the combined thermal load produced by a thermoelectric module of this class, and the latest generations of Intel® micro-processor.

Patented Helicoid pin design (U.S. patent 6,469,898) : pins are individually machined in an helicoid shape, to increase their surface area, and further enhance heat dissipation efficiency.

What exactly is the mis information?

feathers
03-16-2004, 03:32 PM
As I have asked Mr AKABILLA to explain: Why is it then that such a simple and effective design is no longer for use by 'ordinary people' ?

The man was clearly suggesting that it was sold to professionals/industry only - because it was too complicated to be used by an ordinary pleb.

It do seem that you people are mighty good at quoting information posted on websites. right down to the patent number and individually machined pins.

So.. It's capable of dissipating the heat load from a 226W peltier & >=60W cpu core using an 80CFM fan?

"What exactly is the mis information?" - The misinformation is that Swiftech stated to me that the unit was no longer available due to design/performance issues.

Therefore I would like AKABILL Unreg to explain how such a simple design is now beyond the grasp of the ordinary user?

Would the man care to answer my questions?

jaydee
03-16-2004, 03:37 PM
As I have asked Mr AKABILLA to explain: Why is it then that such a simple and effective design is no longer for use by 'ordinary people' ?

The man was clearly suggesting that it was sold to professionals/industry only - because it was too complicated to be used by an ordinary pleb.

It do seem that you people are mighty good at quoting information posted on websites. right down to the patent number and individually machined pins.

So.. It's capable of dissipating the heat load from a 226W peltier & >=60W cpu core using an 80CFM fan?

Would the man care to answer my questions?
Only thing i saw about not being a public thing:


(pleeze folks, the MCW5360-T is an 'industrial' product not available to OCers)

Seen nothing about the 4000-T. I don't understand what your problem is with it. It will do what it says. What BillA is trying to say is prove it wrong with data not words saying it will not work.

EDIT: Also it is called copy and pasting.

feathers
03-16-2004, 03:45 PM
I was in contact with Swiftech last year (they setup a dealer account for me). Although the MCX4000-T was listed on their site. There was no purchase option for it. When I queried them about it, I was told that the unit was no longer available due to performance issues.

Now I am to believe that the MCX4000-T is available to industry only. Just wondering why that is? (given that Bill has suggested it's too complicated for the average joe to use).

I would like to know why this heatsink is supposedly beyond the grasp/abilities of the ordinary user (given that some of my customers are using peltiers with bolt-down heatsinks from Thermalright!).

"(pleeze folks, the MCW5360-T is an 'industrial' product not available to OCers" - Since when is an MCW5360 an MCX4000-T?

Swiftech were selling air-cooled peltier heatsinks to the ordinary consumer. They have now withdrawn all air-cooled heatsinks from sale to the consumer.

Note: A quick check on their website reveals the MCX4000-T is back on display. Does that mean it is or it isn't available to the consumer?

Incoherent
03-16-2004, 03:52 PM
The spec there is talking about maintaining around about ambient T with a 70W heat load. Seems reasonable to me, it would only need to be dissipating 120-ish watts. An 80CFM fan should do this OK, subject to caseflow and power considerations.
Do you have data contradicting this? That would be very interesting. Or at least some summary of your experiences would be of more interest than the bad mouthing.
Although it IS rather entertaining. But it does not make for a particularly good sales pitch, either for your point or your product.

Cheers

Incoherent

MadHacker
03-16-2004, 04:02 PM
Although it IS rather entertaining. But it does not make for a particularly good sales pitch, either for your point or your product.
I have to agree it is entertaining.
Ever watch the govermnet in a debate... it is funny as heII.... it is a wonder that anything get's done with all the bashing they do... they never answer each others questions, just dance alround and do name calling... can we change this thread name to "Politics with Feathers" :p

feathers
03-16-2004, 04:14 PM
Unfortunatly I have developed this argumentative attitude from posting at one particular off-topic forum elsewhere (We argue on everything from pieces of cheese to metaphysics).

I suppose it's a good way to relieve stress sometimes (but of course it can be very stressful in itself).

The time spent arguing on this forum has already caused me to re-think many issues (and so for all of the bickering - I still see it as being valuable/useful/enlightening).

I believe that one of the reasons I get so angry is because my business really has been working very well over the past few years. We have sold a lot of peltiers and during that time have had to replace only one unit (returned as DOA).

We've always received positive comments from customers (until the past 4 weeks or so). One customer using a 130W with heatsink/fan was expecting temperatures below ambient (although there have been many things which needed changing/re-wording we have always made it clear that air-cooled pelts simply don't work as well as watercooled units). The customer in question got temps of 25C (I guess that was lower limit although he didn't make that clear). That particular customer was in the process of switching to water anyway.

It is only over the past month that we have thought seriously about phasing out the 130W and adding more powerful units.

I can certainly appreciate that many things needed to change with the website. If we were to continue selling the 130W for CPU cooling then we would run into serious problems. But it has worked very well for us over the past few years and not a single complaint!

I think that counts for something. But I can certainly appreciate where you guys are coming from when you state the need for proof and concrete data.

Zogthetroll
03-16-2004, 05:03 PM
well, i'm not even going to bother getting involved in this debate, the only comment I have is regarding the web site. fix all the pages so they can be read through without scrolling from side to side (a sign of a well-designed page, not to mention less of an annoyance to potential customers ;) ), I have a 17" monitor and still have to move back & forth. Ideally, someone with a 15" monitor should be able to read your site without haveing to do that. also, as you have recognized, there needs to be a balance regarding the content of the site. part of the reason why I hang out here at procooling, is that its such a great source of information, I know that the guys here will present all aspects of a product or idea, both good and bad, and if you want your site to be a more informative site for people looking to be involved with TEC usage, then give them as accurate a picture as possible, not just an extreme to counter those that shun TECs as evil. that's all, carry on.

Bignuts
03-16-2004, 05:11 PM
Another waste of time and energy.

feathers
03-16-2004, 05:41 PM
Hi Zog:

I will look into the issue of sideways scrolling website (not running in 800x600 are you?) although the text boundaries should never expand past 95% of the screen width!??

The site is certainly undergoing a major rewrite and the focus will now be on presenting both the pros and cons of extreme-cooling (much of the text has already been rewritten but I don't think it's been uploaded yet). The rewrite will also be less of a statement or reaction against anti-tec people and more about showing that TE cooling can work well if the right procedures are followed.

May also add some more humour there as well (although the 'brainwashing' text was more of a joke aimed at Procooling members).

Thanks for the input.

EDIT: I like that clear case cube of yours. Been thinking of changing to a clear case myself. The box I have at the moment is beautiful (brushed alu with UV acrylic panels and UV leds) but it's very small.

EDIT: Always remember to use that EDIT Button.

MadHacker
03-16-2004, 05:53 PM
EDIT: I like that clear case cube of yours. Been thinking of changing to a clear case myself. The box I have at the moment is beautiful (brushed alu with UV acrylic panels and UV leds) but it's very small.

On the upside... Feathers now uses the EDIT button :)

feathers
03-16-2004, 05:55 PM
Yes he sure do.

:-)

deathBOB
03-16-2004, 06:22 PM
Yall have to much free time...

bigben2k
03-16-2004, 07:26 PM
I agree with Bob, above. ;)


Feathers, please, please take a minute, and check out this page:
http://www.overclockers.com/topiclist/index31.asp#WATER COOLING

It contains all the water cooling related articles that OverClockers has published. Now run a search for Bill's articles: read them! In particular, the radiator roundup, and the individual components he tested, especially the latest ones, as well as the details of the testbench he used (worth in excess of $20'000 btw).

That should give you a preliminary estimate of what Bill can do. I don't care if he's grumpy: "niceness" is a luxury. He's grumpy, and we all live with it!

What Bill is now asking, is that you show some testing data, to backup any claim of "temperature" or "efficiency", claimed or implied, related to your product and/or anything you've posted, here or elsewhere (he's tracking you, trust me! ;) ).

Like I said, testing isn't anywhere near being easy. That's why I created the WBTA, so that those interested in testing can get together and share resources, ideas, and eventually cross-test some water blocks. Ok, enough pitching of the radio station... ;)

jaydee
03-16-2004, 07:27 PM
well, i'm not even going to bother getting involved in this debate, the only comment I have is regarding the web site. fix all the pages so they can be read through without scrolling from side to side (a sign of a well-designed page, not to mention less of an annoyance to potential customers ;) ), I have a 17" monitor and still have to move back & forth.
I got a 14" screen on this laptop and a 19" on my desktop both at 1024x768 and I just went through the entire site on both and didn't have any side scrolling? Looked good to me.

Zogthetroll
03-16-2004, 09:32 PM
@ feathers; thanks, I had a blast making that case & it's always nice to have one's work noticed, unfortunately I had to part with it (still in the family though, so maybe one day i'll get it back ;) )
and yeah, i'm still using 800x600, so sue me. to be honest the only page i really had trouble with was the TEC information page, i think. still, it was one of the ones with the most text on it, so it was the most noticeable. the others were merely the header extending off of the side of the page. and not really a big deal, but I figured i'd mention it since it is a commercial site, and part of good business is making the site as user-friendly as possible, so people will come back. and 800x600 is still the lowest common denominator, so to speak. also, I couldn't tell if the links at the beginning were looping continuously, or stopped after a bit, nice graphics, but the looping was annoying. also, some text to label the pics might be nice, a.) for those who aren't quite sure what the pictures link to, and b.) for those with crappy dial-up connection. again, these are only suggestions though, feel free to ignore them as you wish, or not, your call. :D

feathers
03-17-2004, 04:44 AM
Thanks for the pointers, Zog.

It should be fairly easy to make the pages compatible with 8x6.

The very first intro page with the Flash isn't complete! (you'd think we would have completed that first, right?). I might also shrink down the graphics/flash on that intro page because I think it's oversized. The intro page needs to be finished though and the animation will also be finished.

All the suggestions you made are valid and they will effect the outcome of the final design.

:-)

satanicoo
03-17-2004, 08:44 AM
Just a quick note:

I think with peltiers and a cascade block, the peltiers cooling the water would proove to be a good sistem in terms of overclockability.

But search here for 'stirling cycle engines'. They are the future.

feathers
03-17-2004, 10:33 AM
Thanks for the info jaydee.. This makes me wonder if it's Zog's text size which causes the side-scroll bar to appear? Are you using a large character size in IE, Zog? I will have to check the site out with larger text.

BigBen: Thanks for the link to the article.. I will check it out before long. As well as the text rewrite for the web-site: More emphasis will be placed on performance data in future.

EDIT: I searched for stirling cycle engines.. All I found were large outdoor coal/wood power generators. I read the piece on stirling engines for CPU cooling though. Interesting.

Re: Cascade..

I wonder if it would benefit peltier plates as well? From what I've read - they focus the jets over the area of the CPU core whereas the average cpu pelt is 50mm square. Perhaps the jets would still serve to cool the larger surface area of the peltier quite well?

What does the developer have to say about this?

Les
03-19-2004, 03:15 PM
Swiftech claims seem reasonable.
Using Kryotherm (http://www.kryotherm.ru/soft.htm) ,Waterloo (http://www.mhtl.uwaterloo.ca/old/onlinetools/strip_source/strip2.html),
Since87 (http://uffish-thought.net/wc-gifs/peltcalc.xls),and
Delta (http://www.delta.com.tw/products/dcfans/pdf/FFBseries.pdf)/img

Get theoretical/empirical results::
http://www.jr001b4751.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SLAJ3.jpg
http://www.jr001b4751.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SLAJ4.jpg
http://www.jr001b4751.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SLAJ5.jpg

EDIT:
Notes on last graph

Used Since87 (http://uffish-thought.net/wc-gifs/peltcalc.xls) to cslculate 220w Peltier performance in perfectly "Insulated condition"(Ri= infinity). Then iteratively corrected to allow for Insulation Losses/Gains using Kryotherm (http://www.kryotherm.ru/soft.htm)

Rc
Using my understanding that the Spreading Resistance is dependant on the Contact Conductance(h) of the Peltier-Coldside/Coldplate. I equate "h" to Contact Conductance of the Hotside/HS( = Area x 1/Rh).
Giving h=1786 W/m*m*K (0.0025x 1/0.224) and h=2516 W/m*m*K
Waterloo gives a "Total Conductive Resistance"(subtracting Contact Resistance from Total Resistance) of 0.103c/w for both cases.
TIM resistance of 0.1c/w (for 10x10mm die) is added to give an Rc=0.203c/w
Ri
Insulation (Ri) =1
This is a real beast. It is used as a tool to estimate the secondary cooling/heating of the die.Nigh impossible in the thermal environment of a motherboard to use anything other than empirical values.However with very liitle or no data available this difficult.My present preferred value for CPU in motherboard is Ri=1( maybe 0.5c/w is better in view of this (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/index.php?) . Dunno )