Mini-fridge chiller recharge
 

I have an old(94) GE minifridge that I am using as a chiller. It works very well(-30C water), but I want more. Since it is so old my guess is that it is using R12. Can I recharge the compressor with another freon? Which freon should I get?R404?

ok well if it has r12 you only have a few choices. r22 r502
you see r12 r22 r502 all use the same oil (mineral oil) so you can go with any of the 3 .but r502 is the coldest,but it boils so low it can cause the compressor to overheat if the condensor cannt handle the heat.so i would recommend r22 .it isnt priced too bad and any ac repair shop can charge it.
you can recharge with r134a or any of the other refrigerants like r404a but you will have to change the oil ,which can be a pain on a fridge.
i would reconmend r22.

i see you have been in a few differant forums asking this question .everyone giving you opinions but none of them have actually used r502. i use it as r22 r12 .so i am telling you the facts not just what you can read in a fridgerantion chart.
some of the guys mean well but they think they can learn the entire refridgerant field in a matter of months.

i hope i helped a little:dome: :dome:

Ok then.So why are you recomending R134a if you "know the entire refrigerant field"? :rolleyes: :p

You can use any refrigerant you want as long as you want to put a little time into it and flush the compressor.
I also recomend R22, very nice refrigerant.I haven't worked with R-502, but it seems petty nice.But never rule out using R290, very nice refrigerant if you can't get R22/R502 etc. or you can't afford it.

I AM GOING TO ONLY REPLY ONE TIME TO THIS.
NO WHERE DID I SAY I KNEW THE ENTIRE REFRIDGERANTION FIELD.BUT I HAVE OVER 20 YEARS IN DEALING WITH IT ....HOW MANY YEARS HAVE YOU?
I THOUGHT NOT.
BECAUSE I HAVE 20 YEARS IN THE AC AND MECHANICAL FIELD I NEVER SAID I KNOW IT ALL ..AND I NEVER WILL. BECAUSE I WILL ALWAYS CONTINUE TO LEARN UNTIL I AM PUT IN THE GROUND AND BURIED.
THESE ATTACKS ON PEOPLE FOR NO REASON MUST STOP.GROW UP AND REALIZE YOU STILL CAN LEARN FROM OTHERS.

NOW WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THE FORUM AND HELP PEOPLE NOT CRITICISE THEM.THIS DOES NOTHING TO HELP PEOPLE TO LEARN BUT DOES THE OPPOSITE.AND RUN PEOPLE OFF THE FORUMS BECAUSE THEY ARE SCARED TO ASK A QUESTION WITHOUT SOMEONE JUMPING ALL OVER THEM.

Uh huh, who is the one attacking who?First of all you were acting people didnt know what they were talking about when you recomended R502.I just replied joking around with you, see funny ha ha, its a joke.Why dont you calm down and realize what a joke is and what an attack is.I know you, so I feel I can joke around with you.

By the way that whole 20 years in the field means nothing IMO.As most a/c techs don't know anything, now remember I am now saying you don't, just that most of them don't.I know an HVAC tech that has been doing it for 40 years, and he doesnt even know the basics.He was absolutely stumped when I told him about making a waterchiller! :D

Calm down :p

Geez dude. Settle down. And what's with the all caps? I didn't read it as a direct attack on you...it sounded sarcastic. Most people in their respective fields feel they know more than the person next to them because they have more "experience" in that area. Let me be the one to say experience does NOT equal knowledge. I work in the computer/technical/networking arena. There are people that have been working it for 20+yrs and still don't know as much as I know....and I've only been in it for maybe 1/4 the amount of time.

BACK ON TOPIC>>

You can use just about any refrigerant....but you'll have some problems there.
By law, most places will only sell R22, R404, R502, R12, to licensed individuals. This means you will either have to obtain a license through your state, or just use a refrigerant that is readily availabe and cheap. Some people still have R12; R134 can be purchased anywhere, and R290 is cheap and it's EVERYWHERE. It works great too. It has the same boiling temp (roughly) -42*F or R22, but not as good a heat capacity.
For a hobbyist use, I would recommend you use R290 first. Get yourself acqainted with refrigeration first and familurize yourself with it. After a lot of practice, and you think you're comfortable with it, then venture into using different refrigerants. By then, you will know enough to safely experiment on your own, and not spend so much time asking questions on forums. ;)

First off, the caps are because Bowman types from work (sometimes) from a caps locked keyboard; no insult intended.

2: R134a is not compatible (oil wise) with R12/R22, and in fact, if you mix both oils, you may create an acid. R134a is a good option (although not as good as R22), but as Bowman stated, it will require "most excellent" cleaning, for the reason above. It is usually best to start from scratch, instead of switching from R22 to R134A. (Google for horror stories)

3: license: you can order one online, but it'll only give you access to some refrigerants (see |Punisher|'s thread).

4: Bowman is our most respected phase-change member, and he has more experience with it, and has achieved colder temperatures than anyone else you'll find (LN2 excluded).

5: an A/C tech can't know everything about everything, simply because they will usually end up working with only one or two refrigerants. If you want an engineer, google. A tech will however be able to tell you the do's and don'ts of a particular setup, as far as the refrigerant is concerned.

Aenigma/Mr Baz: if you were really concerned, you would have stated why R134A is not a good substitute for R12/R22. Also, flushing the compressor is NOT a proper way to clean out an R12/R22 system for an R134A upgrade. Also, you failed to mention that R290 is propane, and that it's best to use it in combination with something else, like R134A, especially for someone starting to experiment.

Some of these refrigerants are available at auto part stores.

Natedog: let us know where you're headed!

I know I am not contributing anything positive to this, but comments that are not related to the topic of the thread do not belong. I have learned a great deal by just reading what ben and bowman have to say in the various cooling forums around the 'community'. Reading information from these two has brought about a huge interest in me with reguards to refridgeration, cooling and the general science of this all. And I'm willing to be Bowmans 20 years are 'worth' just a little bit more than your wanton ability to craptalk.


Please unless you have something to contribute please dont post anything.

Yes I realize I'm being a hypocrite, but I value what these two people have to say, not a random miscrient's screw-around commentary.

Originally posted by bigben2k
First off, the caps are because Bowman types from work (sometimes) from a caps locked keyboard; no insult intended.

2: R134a is not compatible (oil wise) with R12/R22, and in fact, if you mix both oils, you may create an acid. R134a is a good option (although not as good as R22), but as Bowman stated, it will require "most excellent" cleaning, for the reason above. It is usually best to start from scratch, instead of switching from R22 to R134A. (Google for horror stories)
You mix the oils and you get a wax. Mix POE with water and you get the acid that will eat the motor windings of your compressor.

3: license: you can order one online, but it'll only give you access to some refrigerants (see |Punisher|'s thread).
It's better to go through your local city/state office. Some online licenses won't be valid in all areas.

4: Bowman is our most respected phase-change member, and he has more experience with it, and has achieved colder temperatures than anyone else you'll find (LN2 excluded).
LN2 is lower than -120*F....I don't think he's gone that cold with refrigerant. I've seen other DIY units that have colder load temps...but that doesn't matter. I still like Bowman and he does good work.

5: an A/C tech can't know everything about everything, simply because they will usually end up working with only one or two refrigerants. If you want an engineer, google. A tech will however be able to tell you the do's and don'ts of a particular setup, as far as the refrigerant is concerned.
I spoke with a tech at A/C engineers ( a local a/c place) and he was baffled by the work I had done on my unit. They know a lot, but in a different area.

Aenigma/Mr Baz: if you were really concerned, you would have stated why R134A is not a good substitute for R12/R22. Also, flushing the compressor is NOT a proper way to clean out an R12/R22 system for an R134A upgrade. Also, you failed to mention that R290 is propane, and that it's best to use it in combination with something else, like R134A, especially for someone starting to experiment.
It was already stated that R134 doesn't work as good as R290 or R22, so no need to reiterate it. They make flushing kits to change oils in compressors, so it is perfectly possible and has been done before.
R290 can be used by itself. You don't need to mix it with anything.

I agree, and you'll notice my post included no "craptalk" or "screw-around commentary". My post was pry the first post that had the most useful information.
I say we get this thread back on topic and start posting useful information.

Alright, that's it... I nearly replied to your (in my opinion) patronizing tone yesterday but decided to cancel the reply due to my own "am I actually contributing to this thread with this post" policy...

aenigma:
In reference to your first post, your the tone of your post is patronizing. Period. If were infact trying to be something other than patronizing (helpful, perhaps?), you really have to work on your delivery.

Note that if you re-read bowman's first post he specifically did *not* recommend replacing R12 with R134a due to the PITA it would be to change the oils.

Mr. Baz:
In reference to your more recent post,... More patronizing. BigBen specifically excluded LN2 from his statement, yet you go rub his nose in it. Same goes for the lower load temp reference for the DIY units. Is it common practise now to just shrug everything off and say, "eh, I've seen better"

The following was originally directed only at Baz, but in hindsight should be directed at both aenigma and Baz, but in a more general sense.
And now in reference to the A/C tech comment you made. You spoke to *ONE* A/C tech at one place... and you're using that *ONE* experience to discredit *ALL OTHER* other A/C techs everywhere? Really. Truism: A/C Tech's are people - they come in different sizes, knowledgebases and experience levels.

Consider for a moment that another reason 'your' A/C tech seemed baffled could possibly have been because the idea wasn't communicated effectively.ie: A possibility, but not necessarily the case.

I apologize for not actually contributing in reference to the topic starter's original post. But everytime I see some person rip into another needlessly on a forum, it just makes my blood boil. Yes, I did rip into the two members quoted here, but I am of the opinion that it was needed ;)

[EDIT for mislabeled quotes the resulting misdirected coments and a few clarifications - I appologize for the confusion]

Thanks ymboc.

I would not recomment R290 to start with. R22 would be a much better/safer way to start experimenting with.

Here's the link to |Punisher|'s thread (who also tried R290).

wow dude, chill. That first quote was from aenigma, not me.
In no way am I trying to be patronizing. I'm just stating the facts straight out. The information I post IS helpful.

I didn't say bowman's setup sucked. I just said there is no such thing as "the almighty cooling GOD"....and if you read closely you'll notice I said I liked bowman's work, as it is realy quality stuff.

I'll make it clearer....EVERY a/c engineer and tech I've talked to was able to follow my idea...but were kinda baffled, yet were VERY intersested in the unit. I had one actually request I let him know how everything turned out. Really nice guy he was.

I'm not ripping into anyone. I'm nearly correcting some minor flaws in other people's posts. I would hate to have a new guy working on making his own DIY system give up hope cause he got confused and tried something that someone told him to do....but it didn't turn out right.

From the looks of it.....you're the one ripping into ME....yet I have yet to say anything derrogatory towards anyone.....I don't get it...nice welcome note eh?:shrug:


BACK TO SUBJECT
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Oh yeah. Bigben. R22 would be GREAT. It is a relatively safe refrigerant and it has a better heat capacity than R290. I agree with you on that one. If you can get R22, GO FOR IT.
It's just in my area it is a royal PAIN to get a hold of the stuff, and online places are $$ and require a license most of the time.
It's just R290 makes a great medium if you can't get access to anything else.
I AM converting to R22 once I get my refrigerant license from my state.

R290 is still safe as long as you use it in a well ventillated place, but for those that want safety to the max, I agree, go R22. It's safer and has better heat capacity. It's worth the $$ if you can get it.

I just read over it and noticed Bigben "excluded" LN2, I thought it read INcluded. That's my bad on that one....I was tired and studying for a Physics final last night....:eek: :dome:

Wow nice misinformation.

R134a isn't compatible of course, but it can be flushed out VERY easily.How often do you work with this stuff?How often do you use POE in place of mineral oil?Thats what I thought...

Punisher?Ok I will just ignore that thank you very much.
An a/c tech only knows what he needs to know to work on air conditioners.Thats it, just talk to some of them sometimes.
By the way bowman said he was in the field for 20 years, yet he said he wasnt working with it, he has just been around it.When your just around it, you usually learn more as it is not a job, but a hobby.

Yes of course bowman is your respected phase change guru/gawd he is the only one that posts here, and he knows his stuff.But he isnt getting the lowest temperatures.For instance I have already had cascade and 2 stage split level systems going...
But he is definately getting impressive temperatures.

Ok you don't know why r134a isnt a good refrigerant?Lets take a look at its remarkable boiling point, a whopping -25c.R290 is -42f, cheap, easy to get.Plus it will not explode, I am always working with it.If you know what your doing, and your not a total idiot, you will not have any problems.You do NOT mix it with anything.I will say again, it is very easy to flush a compressor.

You know, just because you are sheltered and only post here, does not mean that bowman is the only one that knows about refrigeration.Why don't you just check out phase-change.com forums?

Mr. Baz:
I agree, R22 is damn good if you can get it, but R290 is better for practicing, hands down.Why practice with an expensive hard to get refrigerant when you can get propane very cheap and easy?I don't know what these people have against propane...

Oh yes by the way, what refrigerant do you guys use in your direct die systems?You recomend R22 like it is at the corner grocery store, when in fact you need a license, and where I am, it is $150 for a 30lb tank.

So, how many a/c techs/hvac techs have YOU talked to?90% of the a/c techs or HVAC techs will only know what they do, which is repairing air conditioners refrigerators/freezers.There may be a few that actually enjoy it as a hobby, and try to learn everything they can.But, that usually is not the case.They just know enough to make money and support themselves.


I agree with your "Truism: A/C Tech's are people - they come in differant sizes, knowledgebases and experiance levels"

I disagree with the comment about him not communicating properly, I think you need to go talk to an hvac tech.Have you ever been to a computer shop with the so called "techs" trying to tell you SDRam is better than DDR, and things like that?Well, that is the same thing as asking an a/c tech how to make a direct die system.They don't know, and they go off telling you what they DO know.I wasted 4 hours over at an HVAC tech, so much fun. :D

But he also said that I could get -100f temps by using a good condenser :D

Pfew... some more misinfo!

I think everyone knows that R134A is one of the most handicapped of all popular refrigerants. (if anyone else didn't, now you know!).

As for R290, here's the MSDS for it, ya'll can judge for yourself: R290 MSDS . In short, it's not so much using it that's a problem, it's storing and handling it. You should know how easy it is to have a refrigerant leak, especially in a home made/modded system.

I think it's clear that R290 is OTHERWISE a good choice.

Here's a link describing (to some extent) some popular refrigerants.

Here's a link for the DIYer.

Here's a fat PDF listing most refrigerants.

Here's a freeware one can download to calculate the pressure effect on some refrigerants. Here's a review of the software (!).


You seemed to have missed ymboc's point: talking to ONE person isn't anywhere near enough of a good sample to make a judgement, and certainly not enough to make a generalization.

If spending 4 hours with an HVAC tech didn't get you anywhere, well, I'm sorry! Try somewhere else.

(For the record, I post at many other forums)


I'm going to go read a paper now... and see who else blew themselves up!

Cool links there man.

But you're still off on using R290. It is not explosive. It's not even labeled as explosive. It's FLAMMABLE. It won't burn without oxygen. Storing is no problem. If you've got a leak in your system....it's either so small that you didn't notice it when testing it (and therefore barely letting any R290 out) or you didn't test properly.
R290 is mixed with another chemical that I don't feel like typing out right now, that makes it smell nasty. If you have a leak, it will be obvious.

What refrigerant do you use Bigben?

I'm always looking forward to being proved wrong!

Ok, so what's the difference between flammable and explosive?

I tend to agree with you: if there is a leak, it should be detectable, either from the smell or the performance loss however, I think that the Germen township fire department (Indiana) would disagree with you: Link

[edit]
Here a set of facts about propane.
[/edit]

BTW, the additive is called Mercaptan.

Here's yet another link to a thread about some poor fellow who's having problems with a propane heater. (note: there is a difference between a gas line in a house, and a propane tank, but not much)


Right now, I'm living up to my avatar name: I don't use any refrigerant, except for the one in my refrigerator! I'll be doing that next year.

So the rangers intentially set a 100+lb propane tank on fire and put it out. If it was explosive, they would not be that close, and the entire tank would go 'KABOOM'.

Propane is flammable, yes. This is a common fact.

Show me an article where pure propane EXPLODED and I will believe you. (does not include manufacturing plants, as they also store massive amounts of oxygen and other chemicals that cause the explosion, and not the propane itself).

You can't dog it until you use it. You know there IS a refrigerant R290. It's a commercially used refrigerant too. Just not very common. The refrigerant R290 is the same thing as propane, just refined better.

When you start on your own DIY project, you'll understand where aenigma, bowman, and I are coming from.;)

I see your point.

Webster's definitions:
Flammable: capable of being easily ignited and of burning quickly

Explosive: relating to, characterized by, or operated by explosion (a large-scale, rapid, or spectacular expansion or bursting out or forth)

In short, it's flammable if it can easily be set on fire. It's explosive if the combustion results in a large/quick expansion of volume.

Section 3 of the MSDS states: "Extremely flammable liquified gas".

Section 5 states: "exposure to fire may cause containers to rupture/explode"

Ok, so when propane burns, it doesn't expand quickly in volume, but it does expand. (the section 5 note probably applies to all tanks anyways). We certainly wouldn't want a propane tank to rupture.

So the fire dept must have opened the tank to let some pressure out (hey look, they did!).:p


Again, in all fairness, there is a very narrow range of conditions required to light up propane. Even when it is lit, it will not rapidly expand in volume.

Here's an example of how to light up propane (beyond the torch...).

Bowman- in your project thread you mentioned having to change the length of the capillary tube when you changed to from R22 to R502. Would I need to do that also? If I could get ahold of R22 or R502, which one would you recommend?

Yeah. I thought of a scenario.
You leave a 50lb tank of propane in your garage. All entrances are closed...and you didn't close the valve all the way.
The propane would leak out and fill the garage, while mixing with the air in the garage. Now it is extremely dangerous. All you'd have to do is walk out and "*snif* smells like propane out here.....I think I need a smoke....*BOOM* "
Then that would cause an explosion...but the same would happen if you left an open can of gasoline in your garage.

NO MATTER WHAT....USE COMMON SENSE!!!
Like Bigben said....I don't wanna get on the forums one day to find someone 'sectioned' off part of their house cause they weren't taking the propper safety precautions.:eek: :D

Lemmie guess. He pressurized the block with *mapp* gas and then held a flame around the joints to see if it leaked. HAHAHA:rolleyes: :D
While that was a good idea....all he had to do was leave the block presurized with an attached gauge (I'm assuming he used a manifold set to charge the block) and let it sit overnight or so. Then check the pressure in the morning.

edit: I'd still do the "flame test" just for kicks though....of course wearing the propper gloves. :D

R502 would be bitching....except you need a license to buy it...and...well...lemmie let the link speak for itself.;)
http://www.r22.org/prod_list.php?mai...ondgroup=R-502

If you can get some...GET IT. You could have some fun experimenting with it.

502 is going to be near impossible to get, but if you got it...

I think |Punisher| was stress testing his system with a MAPP torch (to see if the waterblock would still cool):rolleyes: . I really don't remember what was in the system, but I think he had a mixture of 2 or three refrigerants at one point.

Everything I said was NOT misinformation , I am not going to read your links as I am insulating my board right now to use my phase change system that uses propane, that by the way is NOT going to spontaneously combust :rolleyes:
I also have good ASHRAE pdf's and I do not need anymore.I take it you do not know R290 is used commercially?Alot of people use R290(people you obviously don't know, because you stay here all the time).
You need oxygen for the propane to burn, if your phase change system leaks you suck at making them.That is your job to make sure your system is safe.If you know what your doing(like me) then R290 is a fine refrigerant.

I never said I talked to "1" tech, I just gave an example of 1 tech.Which by the way I know, which is why I was getting my ear chewed off by him for 4 hours about his business almost falling through. :)


Oh yes and for the record, I have yet to see anyone have problem using propane as a refrigerant.Go ahead and try and prove me wrong.I would like to see how many refrigeration systems YOU have built, and how much experiance YOU have with propane.

:D
I have done that too, caught my maze3 on fire because it was leaking like crazy.Then I blew it out.
Propane tanks can explode...if you heat them up so the liquid expands past the pressure rating of the tank.Big differance there, as any tank will do that.

Punisher was unsoldering a joint and forgot to empty the system :rolleyes:
I just did it on purpose.By the way most pinhole leaks, make a flame the size of a lighter if they are lit.

well to start with i am at home so the cap locks are off.at work i use caplocks.
i want to just apologize to everyone here.
as my favorite saying from star trek the (needs of the many out way the needs of the few)
and i shouldnt have gotten mad at anegima.i know how he talks and i was stessed.my one replay caused alot of fighting back and forth.so as you can see .................................................. .......
the needs of this forum should allways outway the needs of any one individual.so again i am sorry..:p

now back to question at hand.ok i am using r502 now and it isnt all it is cracked up to being.it takes a very strong condensor to handle the excess heat from the r502 and compressor working.r502 is getting to be extreemely exspensive.i am lucky and a friend of mine works for another company had a full 30lb container for $175.00 so i scooped it up.i normally would would pay around 300 to 500 us dollars depending on the season of the year.
so i would get it charged with r22.this is usally cost a certified tech about $50.00 to 75.00 a bottle but they will mark it up of couse.a easy swap.just recharge and go.
now the question on capillary tubbing.yes if you go from r12 to r22 or r12 to r502 you need to change the capillary lenght to keep the same watts of cooling.since r22 is more effecient and boils at a colder temp it take less to do the same job so you lengthen the capillary to reduce the amount of refridgerant you send to the evaperator.but for you i would leave it along since you need a little more flow to get you some lower temps

now on the r290 or propane.i will not reconmend it or put it down because of the one reason it isnt the easyest thing to fool with.and i never want to hurt anyone acidently by misreading me on using it.now i might would use it but i am a only responsable for my own actions.this isnt to say it isnt a good refridgerant because it is. for the money very hard to beat.

now let me clarify why i am putting a stance on r290 and not pushing its use.last week for instance in one of the forums i was in. i hear a young man who was pretty smart, but he wanted to make himself a phase change unit.now i found out later he was only 11 or 12 years old.this worries me.does anyone know what could happen to this yound man if he takes his dads propane cylinder from the grill and trys to use it on a hobby.for one he might just open it up in his bedroom for instance and not knowing breath enough to knock him out or even kill him if the room is small enough.or heaven forbid it causes a explosion in his small bedroom.this worries me because my som is that age and i know how reckless he is so.
i hope every understands why i wont tell people to use it.a adult is fine i have no problem with someone using it with the proper care .it is a great refridgerant but too many bright kidds stay in forums and dont get told how danderous some stuff is.

We should have a clause or something in our sig's that say that it is the sole responsibility of the builder/reader/whatever to follow the propper safety procedures in dealing with hazardous materials. If they are unfamiliar with working with propane, they should have an adult or other experienced individual to oversee their work and to make sure the working environment is kept safe.
The same goes for any other refrigerant. Some turn to poisonous gases when they come in contact with a flame, they all can cause suffocation if the workplace is not in a well-ventilated area, and some are extremely flammable.

I agree with ya bowman. We should make it clear that their main priority should be safety.

Heck, we need a refrigeration FAQ. In it we should FIRST include all the safety precautions. Then list all of our combined knowledge into one simple FAQ thread. It would save on a lot of things. Just point a person to the FAQ.

I vote we start a refrigeration FAQ. Anyone second my motion?