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dax 02-03-2003 03:35 PM

Looking for a mill
 
Ok with my birthday coming up soon and selling some misc crap on ebay I might find the money to buy a small mill to do some Cu & Al milling (waterblocks and who knows what else?).

Now I found alot of nice mills in the USA, but I fail to find a cheap one (like the mini-mills) around here in Belgium (europe) :(

Could anyone point me out to a few brands (or stores?) to check? My budget would be the mini-mill range, something around $500-$600.

jaydee 02-03-2003 06:55 PM

If you are looking for a small mill that can be simply converted to CNC in the future then the one I have is a pretty good one. You can get just the mill with no CNC for around $500-$600US. The CNC conversion is another $1,000. This is the one I got http://www.acumotion.com/5400CS.htm well mine is a little different. Looks like they upgraded the stepper motors. :mad:

This is just the mill by itself. http://www.acumotion.com/mill.htm

You can buy it there for $618 or I think from http://www.sherline.com/ which is the original manufacturer of it.

It is simple to convert to CNC as there are already a few different kits made just to do just that for it. This mill is better than the Grizzly one but still not great. I like it though. You can probably find a better manual mill though for $600, but it will not be as easy to convert to CNC in the future.

Another good link to browse. http://www.desktopcnc.com/

JFettig 02-03-2003 08:40 PM

The homier or grizzly mill is tons better than those dinky sherline mills, if your sherline is getting out of wack, i really suggest the homier mill, I own one and it rules! I do some amasing work with it, its awesome!

Jon


btw, Im sending JOE a pm pretty quickly here...

LiquidRulez 02-03-2003 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
If you are looking for a small mill that can be simply converted to CNC in the future then the one I have is a pretty good one. You can get just the mill with no CNC for around $500-$600US. The CNC conversion is another $1,000. This is the one I got http://www.acumotion.com/5400CS.htm well mine is a little different. Looks like they upgraded the stepper motors. :mad:

This is just the mill by itself. http://www.acumotion.com/mill.htm

You can buy it there for $618 or I think from http://www.sherline.com/ which is the original manufacturer of it.

It is simple to convert to CNC as there are already a few different kits made just to do just that for it. This mill is better than the Grizzly one but still not great. I like it though. You can probably find a better manual mill though for $600, but it will not be as easy to convert to CNC in the future.

Another good link to browse. http://www.desktopcnc.com/

JAYDEE:
I had a sherline mill like you have and found it to be quite flimsy when cutting, so I opted to trade it in for a cast iron based mini mill(Grizzly)for added rigidness in the column and I must disagree with you on that one. It is certainly NOT by far, better than a Grizzly. Yeah, they arent precision machines but I can cut much thicker stock and faster without the column shaking like its going into seizures on speed,like the Sherline did. Glad I sold it and bought a Grizzly...best $500 I could spend on a small mill.

DAX:
The Sherline table is smaller(the whole mill is smaller)its made of Aluminum.Where as the Grizzly(or any mini mill made by Seig, is made of cast iron and very ridgid)And best of all it doesnt have a proprietary spindle taper that you will have trouble finding tooling for....the Grizzly mini mills have an MT3 taper which is pretty common.
Harbor frieght sells one that has an R-8 spindle which is even more common.
Just take a look at http://www.mini-lathe.com and read up. They have alot of info on smalll hobby machines that may answer some question for ya.
The Grizzly may not have ready made convertion kits available for CNC, but after using it for about 10 hours I was able to convert it myself to CNC with preloaded ballscrews replacing the leadscrews.Being a novice, the whole process took me aboyt 2 weeks to finish converting it
I have 0.005" of play on the whole table travel, and even less on the Y and Z, which is pretty damn good concidering the machine only cost $500. The whole conversion cost me a little over a $1000 and well worth the money and effort put into it.

Whatever you decide DAX, I hope you enjoy yourself.

And always wegar eye protection. I dont know how many times those gogles saved my eyesight even though they look corny and are even more uncomfortable to wear.;)

jaydee 02-03-2003 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JFettig
grizzly mill
Your smoking crack man! :D I know someone that has that grizzly in the link above, it is utter garbage. Their "small" mills suck donkey balls! Well they did anyway. Maybe the newest one's are better?

My Sherline is getting out of wack because of my own ignorance. It is actually a very solid mill for it's size. The weakest link is the Z axis. The backbone is not as strong as I would like. But everything else is good.

Anyway looking at www.grizzly.com (which is where I buy some of my end mills because they are only 300miles away :)) this is the one that compares to mine and is in his price range http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...9&site=grizzly I know someone that has one and it sucks! The table is utter garbage and it doesn't have the specs mine does. Doesn't have nearly enough X/Y travel.

There is non I see there around $600 that is worthy enough.

Althouh this http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...7&site=grizzly little guy maybe a #Rotor style block dream machine. :D Drills and mills.

This is a nice machine here: http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...9&site=grizzly

I don't like the low RPM though, but the "Tapping" features are nice.


I was looking at one of these http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...2&site=grizzly
when I was looking for mills. I could have bought it for the same as my mini CNC. Unfortuneatly I have no room for it. My little CNC is ran out of my bedroom in my Apt! :eek: It's a good little mill though. If I want a bigger mill in the future the CNC stuff can be transfered over. The stepper motors are plenty strong for a larger mill. But I am slowly gettin out of milling blocks as there really isn't much need for it anymore. It is entirely possible to make a block perform near if not aswell as the WW withOUT milling!

jaydee 02-03-2003 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
JAYDEE:
I had a sherline mill like you have and found it to be quite flimsy when cutting, so I opted to trade it in for a cast iron based mini mill(Grizzly)for added rigidness in the column and I must disagree with you on that one. It is certainly NOT by far, better than a Grizzly. Yeah, they arent precision machines but I can cut much thicker stock and faster without the column shaking like its going into seizures on speed,like the Sherline did. Glad I sold it and bought a Grizzly...best $500 I could spend on a small mill.


maybe they are hit and miss? The table came stock with .010 worth of slop in both axis on the one I seen, and NO it does not have as much travel as my sherline!

jaydee 02-03-2003 09:41 PM

I can't seem to find the mill I bought at accumotion anymore. The Sherline I got has 9" X and 6" Y travel and is 3000 max RPM. I do not see it there anymore. The one I linked is only 8"X and 4" Y and only 2,800RPM. :shrug:

Maybe they had troubles with the bigger table. Well whatever. I have to agree that the Grizzly does have a stouter backbone on the Z. But the tables are not good IMO. But I only seen the one. Maybe it was not a good one. You could easily feel the play when you grab the table. And the hand wheels, well we won't get into that.

We have a Harbor Freight locally and last time I checked their mills out non of them had good tables either. Even after messing my table up it still has less slop then the one's I seen at Harbor frieght. maybe i just got lucky to get a tight table with my Sherline. It was real nice up untill I broke a flute on a 3/8" carbide endmill by accidentally setting the Z to drill to fast. Full speed 3/8" end mill into Copper is a bad thing! After that I got some slop in the X axis. It is about .015 worth of slop now. :( un-noticable on most things but deeper channeled blocks that require multiple passes show the slop a little. Shallow stuff and drilled patterns are still great though.

LiquidRulez 02-03-2003 09:53 PM

Well, the HF models seem to be of a cheaper quality than the Grizzly, based on a few peoples reactions to them in forums I browse. Most people that get HF mini mills end up sending it back and buying something else. All the people Ive spoken to that also own a Grizzly, feel the same way I do about it. A great buy.

Well maybe the older Grizzly's suck, but for the money I payed for the one I have, it was a better buy to me then the Sherline was(Maybe sherline's used to suck and are better made now?)

Yeah, the table travel in Y is a little bit smaller on the little Griz, (but plenty of big enough to cut a block;) which is what I purchased for in the beginning anyway.

Besides I finally did get a bigger mill , but not becuase of the Griz's lack of quality ....just started getting business on large peices of work that required a much larger table travel.

And rigidness of your machine will definately make a difference in the accuracy of your work...Unless the laws of physics dont apply to your machine, that is.
Maybe they dont apply to mine, and thats the whole confusion

:shrug:

Well no matter what you get DAX, it will definately be an improvement to what you have now.
And being one who has owned both of the mills in question, I would have saved some money and jsut boght the Grizzly to begin with, had I known how the Sherline was put together.

LiquidRulez 02-03-2003 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
It was real nice up untill I broke a flute on a 3/8" carbide endmill by accidentally setting the Z to drill to fast. Full speed 3/8" end mill into Copper is a bad thing! After that I got some slop in the X axis. It is about .015 worth of slop now. :( un-noticable on most things but deeper channeled blocks that require multiple passes show the slop a little. Shallow stuff and drilled patterns are still great though.
Have you tried adjusting the gibs or the split nut on the table to get rid of the slop?
Maybe you cracked something on the table drive.have you looked at it to see if yoiu did?

jaydee 02-03-2003 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
laws of physics
What's this you speek of? :shrug: :D

The biggest complaints I have about my sherline is the weak backbone and the drive screw setup. I don't like the exposed drive screw on the front and the Z axis drive screw has fatal flaws if you do not keep it well lubed and tightened just right.

I seen a kickass vriation of my Sherline that had a custom backbone, better table, and much improved drive screw setup. Ahh found the link! http://www.desktopcnc.com/minitech.htm

What I like about the sherline parts is they are small and easy to take apart! Perfect for me as i have to use it in my Apt. :(

jaydee 02-03-2003 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
Have you tried adjusting the gibs or the split nut on the table to get rid of the slop?
Maybe you cracked something on the table drive.have you looked at it to see if yoiu did?

I havn't had time to take it apart yet. I tried the adjust screws to no avail. I think I tweaked it pretty bad. That little high tourque DC motor they got on there is almost to much for that mill! I am going to take it apart here in the next week or so.

LiquidRulez 02-03-2003 10:08 PM

Hey, Im not trying to make anyone mad , but isnt the backbone as you put it and the drive screw setup the most important thing on a mill?
With inferior on both parts youre only asking for trouble IMO.:cry:


You do great work for what youre using Jaydee;)
Just thought Id point that out:D

LiquidRulez 02-03-2003 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
I havn't had time to take it apart yet. I tried the adjust screws to no avail. I think I tweaked it pretty bad. That little high tourque DC motor they got on there is almost to much for that mill! I am going to take it apart here in the next week or so.
I would........Id hate to be cutting with a flycutter and have the damn thing fly off and cut off a finger or something.
If it were me(this is just my point of veiw) I would definately take that thing apart before I make any more chips with it.

LiquidRulez 02-03-2003 10:13 PM

Jaydee, Hve you check out the Sherline yahoo groups?
They got some guys and gals in there that have done quite a few good mods to those little mills that make them really shine.

Hell, I learned to convert my mini mill in there in just a few days.

jaydee 02-03-2003 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
Hey, Im not trying to make anyone mad , but isnt the backbone as you put it and the drive screw setup the most important thing on a mill?
With inferior on both parts youre only asking for trouble IMO.:cry:


You do great work for what youre using Jaydee;)
Just thought Id point that out:D

Well, I don't think a solid backbone and Z drive screw is any good if the table is garbage. :D Works the same the other way around I suppose! :D True enough though better backbone is probably better overall. I never called it anything other than backbone! :D

Yeah I am not goin to use is anytime soon. I don't have the time. I do have time to take it apart though one of these nights. I just can't run the mill much after 4pm. Neighbors get a little irritated. :D

jaydee 02-03-2003 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
Jaydee, Hve you check out the Sherline yahoo groups?
They got some guys and gals in there that have done quite a few good mods to those little mills that make them really shine.

Hell, I learned to convert my mini mill in there in just a few days.

No I havn't! I will check that out!! :)

LiquidRulez 02-03-2003 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
Well, I don't think a solid backbone and Z drive screw is any good if the table is garbage. :D
:p My table was pretty good until I tightened the gibs up too tight and bentthe table dovetails inwards in the middle. Those steel gibs that come stock on it.... i soon replaced with custom bearing bronze ones that are split like the big boys use(they wont bind no matter how far I tighten them) and havent had to tighten them up so far to get a 0.003" of an inch of runout with my Starrett dial indicator, and smooth travel that I could push from end to end with my finger(before I put the stepper drive back on) on the x axis full travel. Pretty damn accurate for a chinese mill IMO.

But DAX.....just save yourself some time and get a big boy mill.
I would have if I wasnt so broke when I first purchased the Mini mill!

jaydee 02-03-2003 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LiquidRulez


But DAX.....just save yourself some time and get a big boy mill.
I would have if I wasnt so broke when I first purchased the Mini mill!

Thats actually good advice! Drop a few bucks on a decent drill press instead and save up for a good mill later. you can always find real good USED mills if you looki hard enough and have patients! You can make very good blocks with a drill press!!!

LiquidRulez 02-03-2003 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
Thats actually good advice! Drop a few bucks on a decent drill press instead and save up for a good mill later. you can always find real good USED mills if you looki hard enough and have patients! You can make very good blocks with a drill press!!!
Yep... i made quite a few good looking blocks with a drill press.
Killed my hands though from cutting the channels(arcs and such.... I DO NOT ADVISE DOING THIS>>>IM LUCKY IS STILL HAVE FINGERS TO TYPE THIS)
But well worth it.
My first completed and assembled block, that didnt leak all over the place made on that little craftsman drill press made me feel like I was Benjamin Franklin man..........Like I just invented time and space or something!!

jaydee 02-04-2003 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
Yep... i made quite a few good looking blocks with a drill press.
Killed my hands though from cutting the channels(arcs and such.... I DO NOT ADVISE DOING THIS>>>IM LUCKY IS STILL HAVE FINGERS TO TYPE THIS)
But well worth it.
My first completed and assembled block, that didnt leak all over the place made on that little craftsman drill press made me feel like I was Benjamin Franklin man..........Like I just invented time and space or something!!

Hehe, I ment you can make very good drilled blocks WITHOUT cuting of anykind and just drilling. :p I just brought my drill press home. Going to be making some examples here in the next few months when I can find some time.

dax 02-04-2003 10:11 AM

jaydee116: Those sherline mills don't look too bad, but it doesn't look that rigid... I do think that I can get sherline mills around here though.
I don't think Harbor Frieght's are available around here either, correct me if I'm wrong though.

JFettig: Correct me if i'm wrong, but I don't think Grizzly's are available here. I don't know about Homier though (their small mills are Seigs as well, so they should be comparable to grizzly).

LiquidRulez: Quickly looking at both Sherline and Seig mills I must agree with you that the Seig mills look more solid. And about the CNC convertion, if there was a kit available, I wouldn't get it anyhow... I'm a DIY guy, else I would just buy a waterblock, and a 19" cabinet, and a few 19" cases, etc... :D The eye protection part seems obvious to me...
Hmm and yes everything would be better than what I have now (read: no mill), except for a crappy aging drill (belonged to my grandfather) and a drillpress-like attachment for it, still works though...

And I wouldn't be too suprised that the quality of both Seig and Sherline mills depends alot on your luck.

Hmm and what would a "big boy mill" be actualy? I really don't want to spend too much on one, not (too much) more than $1000. And yes I know it's possible to make perfectly fine blocks with a drill press, but metalworking just seems interesting, and I think I'll do many other things than waterblocks on a mill.

Think I replied to most things here... maybe I missed something, dunno... I'll check out some more links and try to find out what I can get around here (shipping from the USA would be uhm... expensive I think)

LiquidRulez 02-04-2003 10:34 AM

Dax:
Well then if youre a DIY kind of guy, why dont you just build a gantry mill or the like.
Its not really a complex machine to build. And if you search around Ebay, you could probably find everything you need to put it together for around a grand.
The ballscrews can begotten from Reidtool.com cheap....the ballscrews are @$12.00 a ft. for 5/8"dia.with 0.004"per ft. accuracy. And the ballnuts@$24.00 each.....combine two on each screw and preload them against eachother and you have zero backlash and good repeatability. Thats what I did, I made my own preloaded ballscrews.
You can either use pillow blocks,ball bushing bearing blocks and linear shafts on it or go with linear rails for each axis.I would go with the former becuase its more versatile and cheaper if you decide to change it later.
Stepper motors and drives can be gotten cheap on Ebay too. I bought a set of 3 305oz-in hybrid steppers on there for $40 , and they have plenty of power to move my 25 pound head on the Z axis quite fast.
The drives...well you can buy them second hand, but I figured that they are the most important thing on the mill convertion, so I opted to buy new ones @$149.00 each, rather than buy cheap ones.
There are many ways that you can put a mill together, but will be impossible to do without some sort of accurate equipment to build it in the first place.

Depending on where you live, you can get a nice Bridgeport type mill on there for around $1500. Some already converted for around $2500....just best to go pick it up if you can casue shipping will kill ya on a 1500+ pound machine.

Which ever way you decide to go, I wish you the best and will gladly welcome you to the wonderful world of CNC......where you can sit back and watch the machine do all of the work!

Neomoses 02-04-2003 10:43 AM

You've picked a very expensive hobby. I started out with the intention to spend less than $1000 on my mill and everything, and to date I have spent well over $5000. It comes down to this: do you want to spend $600-$1000 on the mill, and have an OK mill or would you rather spend $1500-$2500 on a great mill? I would recommend trying to find a used bridgeport as your best option. They're huge, but they're the best available.

If you don't go for the bridgeport, the best quality mini-mill I've seen is a Rong-Fu. They're made in Taiwan, with much better quality standards than the chineese made mini mills. I would recommend a square column mill rather than a circular column, whichever way you go. Each time you move the head on a circular column mill, you'll have to re-index it to make sure it's square. It quickly becomes a huge PITA.

Another thing that I haven't seen much talk about is tooling. You'll likely spend about $500 on tooling. It's very hard to make anything nice without good tooling. A good vise, a set of parallels, and collets are necessary. You'll also need to purchase drill bits if you don't have them, and end mills. A good facing cutter is highly recommended, although not necessary.

For the vise, there seems to be a huge price increase once you get one that is guaranteed more precise than 0.003." 0.003" should be plenty good for making waterblocks, so unless you plan on recutting the heads on your car or something, I wouldn't spend the extra money. but make sure you get a good vise! a small vise will flex more than anything else, making it impossible to get a good surface finish or dimensional accuracy. My vise weighs about 90 pounds, for example.

Sorry to write such a novel, I just thought I would further inform you of some of the money pits that I have fallen into. Although this hobby is not cheap, it is very rewarding. I love going out and "making chips" rather than just sitting here at the computer. I would recommend it to anyone who can afford it.

dax 02-04-2003 10:44 AM

LiquidRulez:
Actualy I don't want CNC at the moment, I want to mess around with the mill myself... anyhow i guess i'll try to find a place selling mills around here... damn I don't even know how the hell they call it in dutch :(
And Ebay... blah most of the time you can't find anything on non-us ebays and most interesting items on ebay.com are by sellers who don't want to ship to belgium, or the shipping costs are too high :(

LiquidRulez 02-04-2003 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neomoses
You've picked a very expensive hobby. I started out with the intention to spend less than $1000 on my mill and everything, and to date I have spent well over $5000. It comes down to this: do you want to spend $600-$1000 on the mill, and have an OK mill or would you rather spend $1500-$2500 on a great mill? I would recommend trying to find a used bridgeport as your best option. They're huge, but they're the best available.

If you don't go for the bridgeport, the best quality mini-mill I've seen is a Rong-Fu. They're made in Taiwan, with much better quality standards than the chineese made mini mills. I would recommend a square column mill rather than a circular column, whichever way you go. Each time you move the head on a circular column mill, you'll have to re-index it to make sure it's square. It quickly becomes a huge PITA.

Another thing that I haven't seen much talk about is tooling. You'll likely spend about $500 on tooling. It's very hard to make anything nice without good tooling. A good vise, a set of parallels, and collets are necessary. You'll also need to purchase drill bits if you don't have them, and end mills. A good facing cutter is highly recommended, although not necessary.

For the vise, there seems to be a huge price increase once you get one that is guaranteed more precise than 0.003." 0.003" should be plenty good for making waterblocks, so unless you plan on recutting the heads on your car or something, I wouldn't spend the extra money. but make sure you get a good vise! a small vise will flex more than anything else, making it impossible to get a good surface finish or dimensional accuracy. My vise weighs about 90 pounds, for example.

Sorry to write such a novel, I just thought I would further inform you of some of the money pits that I have fallen into. Although this hobby is not cheap, it is very rewarding. I love going out and "making chips" rather than just sitting here at the computer. I would recommend it to anyone who can afford it.

Very expensive hobby indeed.
The more money you throw at it, the easier it becomes!

Yeah my bigger mill is a Rong Fu, also converted to CNC. They are great and the cadillac of benchtop mills IMHO


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