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-   -   Apogee from Swiftech... (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=12376)

Egon 11-17-2005 05:59 PM

Apogee from Swiftech...
 
Looks like the new block is out. What do the pros think of it?

http://www.swiftnets.com/products/Apogee.asp

Long Haired Git 11-17-2005 06:32 PM

Page has been pulled?

HAL-9000 11-17-2005 06:32 PM

Its an interesting block. Almost a "hybrid" between a Storm and MCW6000. If the restriction is as low as they say, it probably is pretty nice I would guess. Maybe it will be a hot seller and bail Swiftech out of insolvency...HAR!

EDIT: Yeah, the page has been pulled. I wonder what the deal is there. Its not in their menus either. How was it found in the first place?

tong 11-17-2005 06:53 PM

yup got pulled, as was stated it looks like a cross between a 5000 series block with and their version of the storm.

From my memory so pls don;t take it as writen in stone.

The base being 3mm thick, and the rest of the upper section of the block being made like their storm version. Delrin top that's molded allowing it to be mass produced at a low price, the universal moutning bracket like their storm, 3/8ths and 1/2 inch swappable fittings. can;t explain the charts from memory but the low down was that it was less restrictive and more effecient then the storm.

It's using the same diamond shapped pins as the 5000 series blocks. The 6000 series used round posts.

Edit:

oh starting price at teh bottom of the page was (and i remeber this clearly) 49.9? + $3.00 for something else taht was an option, but did come with all the retaining hardware for all diff cpu types. If i rember correctly the extra $3 was for the Itanium retention stuff, that was the only thing not included.

Bloody_Sorcerer 11-17-2005 07:11 PM

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=80366
some guys pulled loads of info off the page before it went poof. Looks insanely sick.

jaydee 11-17-2005 07:31 PM

http://www.sourcekills.com/gallery/album26

nikhsub1 11-17-2005 07:43 PM

I just dont see the side to side diamond pin grid array beating the storm, at all. pH you ready to come out of retirement for this one? :D

bigben2k 11-17-2005 07:46 PM

MSRP $49.95. It'll drop.

This is just the Delrin version of the 5002 (IMO), probably with some jetting added.

JFettig 11-17-2005 07:57 PM

I supose theres no pictures of the inside of the cover eh?


Jon

AngryAlpaca 11-17-2005 08:00 PM

What is this, the third Swiftech new product page that we've found shortly before release, just to have it pulled? Marketing? Or just carelessness, over and over and over?

(Block looks awesome!)

pHaestus 11-17-2005 08:10 PM

**** it

If Rocky can do it then so can I

This time it's for all the bananas!

9mmCensor 11-17-2005 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca
What is this, the third Swiftech new product page that we've found shortly before release, just to have it pulled? Marketing? Or just carelessness, over and over and over?

(Block looks awesome!)

Do they throw the page up to test it?

Maybe throw it up at a specific time and give vendors a heads up, to check it out.

Maybe throw it up and watch threads like this one discuss it... make changes... ect.

jaydee 11-17-2005 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikhsub1
I just dont see the side to side diamond pin grid array beating the storm, at all. pH you ready to come out of retirement for this one? :D

I have been preaching pins for years and pins have been the main reason I strayed from the jet blocks back in ther day. I belive this block will perform well. However I am not sure of it beating the Storm. They tried to cover their ass with that "Storm may be better" in such and such situation.

I am going to try and get my dP Xmitter working this weekend.

nikhsub1 11-17-2005 10:22 PM

No doubt it should perform well, perhaps match the storm at a certain flowrate, but 1C better? I dont think so at all.

jaydee 11-17-2005 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikhsub1
No doubt it should perform well, perhaps match the storm at a certain flowrate, but 1C better? I dont think so at all.

We will get to the bottom of it sooner or later.

Les 11-18-2005 12:42 AM

4 Attachment(s)
A first stab at modeling.
May/will change as details of the Apogee emerge and when check sums for my usual boobs.
Probably won't modify today - seeing medical man(re Handlebar Syndrome) and then going to pub.

Edit1 Amended Model.
Now using real dimensions.

Edit2 Added 1x1mm Die predictions
Edit3: Added 32x32mm Die predictions

Marci 11-18-2005 05:24 AM

Jus' duplicating what I said over at OCAU...

Quote:

Looks like a nice n' easy scenario to summarise - refresh design of old block to match the visual appearance of the Storm... cash in on visual similarity... give it a flashy name. Questionable performance data... partially irrelevant. Marketshare of those in the know will buy Storm. Uneducated n00b will buy whatever marketing powers tells them to buy... irrelevant of accuracy of measured performance. Cheapgits will buy whichever is cheapest. Those buying for looks will likely choose the Apogee due to symmetrical appearance.

For the majority of customers that this block is aimed at, the above will be the defining factors for it's success, not actual performance (imo)

billbartuska 11-18-2005 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marci
Jus' duplicating what I said over at OCAU...

After reading a slew of posts about 4 gigs @200 on an Athlon64 (which can't be done)I think you hit the nail on the head!

pHaestus 11-18-2005 08:29 AM

Posting test results like that before product is released WILL result in wb tests that show it as a top performer. Not necessarily because reviewers are lazy and dishonest (though some are) but because reviewers like to be able to feel like they are in line with other tests.

So if you mount the block that's supposed to be a badass and it performs poorly you'd mount it again. Maybe adjust thermal paste application a little. Maybe increase pressure on springs a bit. Etc etc. Sooner or later you'll get that "perfect mount" and the block will perform as shown there vs. average mounts on other blocks.

I also wonder if we're seeing a new Swiftech tester's first results graphed on top of the older results. I could be wrong and BillA did this testing too though and the Apogee is simply a beast.

Roscal 11-18-2005 09:00 AM

We see well the limits of testing here. Swiftech made several new dozen of measurements on different systems with Apogee and Storm, data are valid (some will be made on a true processor very soon to get more data) and finally, they got opposite results according to the testbeds. What to conclude then? Yes it's a good block but is it the best? Not ! What best mean? on which system? With which others parts? Etc. Swiftech want principally to reduce costs manufacturing without reduce performances too much, they suceeded a priori and they could release good blocks at lower price, so more people could enjoy in WC because it's cheaper. It's not a Storm bis, apparence is almost the same because of their process. It's not a crime to keep a design to be their new design reference, or it's like to said "all radiators use the same design", it's the same ridiculous sentence. We need to have a global view of their decision, not only to be stubborn on performances which don't make any interesting differences on most real configurations in typical applications anyway (mounting, paste, load, etc.), some people forget this point...Swiftech is honnest and they say clearly that core geometry will affect efficiency between their 2 top notch WBs, no mystery here. Global and universal statements can't be made on a such complex field like thermal management for processors due to diversity and a lot of people here forget this point too !

Some are playing with dies which are, per definition, far from actual reality and non linear systems like true CPU with an IHS. Robotech will show soon that he got better results with Storm than Apogee on his large naked die. Does it mean Storm is always better? Absolutly not, it's better on his specific testbed, not in all the real cases and perhap's Apogee is always the best in real applications (with multiple processor geometries), who's know. Argue that Storm is the best of the best is true BS, and the same could be applied to any WB obviously, not especially to Storm. It depends of the context and if you aren't be able to understand or extrapolate what differences could be provided between different heated systems, it is because you don't know anything to thermal management, no less no more.... It makes me laugh when I see people on varied forums who are very surprised that Storm could be outperformed a bit by another WB in particular circumstances. No one made an giant & perfect WB testing with all WB worldwide to give an universal answer I believe, so why they need to impose a biased point of view? There's so much mind restrictions that it's impossible to be better for these people, false statement again. It's always the game of who gets the bigger...You look at american forums, you'll see Storm is sainted, you look at european forums, you'll see that Alphacool or others european manufacturer are sainted. Who's right? Let people choose what they want...

Sure, a heated die provides great accuracy if well done, but it ends here and correlations with reality are a real pain and not so easy as some people think. It's easy to see that comparisons between data provided by several people using a die are completly disparate generally ! Who's right? Who's false? None of them again... It depends, that's the universal answer to give you. An IHS has a role in heat flux spreading and almost all actual processors use one, you can't neglect it at all. It's not because a dozen of people pop off the IHS that it's an universal case ! The TTV Swiftech use, in parallel of the BillA's die, is surely nearer from reality than a naked die. IHS acts like a spreader (hot spots are filtered and flux on the IHS top appears to be more constant and a bit less important in terms of power density) and WBs are probably less sensitive to the core dimensions below... If you change the die area or contact, you change its behaviour too because flux are not the same (correlation are complex) and we have a good demonstration here. Is it bad? No. Personnally, I would prefer a controled testbed on real instrumented parts (mobo, processor, etc.) with multiple mounting to ensure consistency like Ph, or I, did. When after months you'll try again to measure again a WB to see if you were correct, and you get same data @+/- 0.1°C you could be happy of that, no need perfs @0.01°C in a world where designs variations are great (I don't say that precision is useless for all measurements, eh). One thing is sure, the more data you'll get from various persons, the more interesting it will be, true data are essential, assumptions or extrapolations remain extrapolations. Swiftech did that using several die systems to get more data, no complaints about that, they don't invent anything.

One key is the downscaling to achieve better convection efficiency thanks to mini/micro structure for example (next generation of Apogee will down scale probably with tinier pins), Storm and others american WB generally are enormous for nothing, 50-70% of their weight/volume is useless (it costs) and we can achieve same results and better integration with WB like my EDM protos if you know them (40x40x10mm only and I could reduce them by a factor 2 if one day I continue this project) or simple WB like MP05 or similar. But external design is a major problem because who want to have a simple small rectangular WB without bling or harmonious curves ? If these esthetics considerations were abandonned by people to keep only efficiency and simplicity, costs and manufacturing processes will be simpler, because Storm needs a lot of milling work for example. Jet impingement is a good technic (the second one with microstructures) but not an ultimate solution and principally because pumps are limited. Some tricks could be made to enhance thermal transfer and Cathar tried some, but you are always dependant of the jet speed and pressure drop related... Remember too that actual WBs are near hitting a effectiveness wall because it become more and more difficult to have a better performer, convection isn't the major factor in thermal transfer now... Apogee has some advantages in comparison of Storm for many circuits (less pressure drop, no clogging, etc.), why don't let it a chance? Not all people are restricted to get an hypothetical 0.5°C less @100W you know...

A lot of time I would say that because it hurts me when I read some headstrong people and their false perceptions. Open your mind a little, it's not a bad thing...

BillA 11-18-2005 09:08 AM

to answer the inevitable;
I left with this still as a prototype, with the obvious suggested development
such seems to have occurred (but I've not seen a bp), and if so the results are plausible given the 'starting' point
(and again, if so, good work by the designer)

all previous products graphed together were tested in the same manner with the same equip with the same cal
(at least it was so, and I suspect still is just due to the timing)

EDIT
nice post David, yes that is the direction

pHaestus 11-18-2005 09:16 AM

The advantage to using a real motherboard for testing imo has nothing to do with heat production.

I noticed a lot of design flaws in mounting and ease of use that one will never pick out with a die simulator. In some cases pointing out these problems made me quite unpopular in the community (ppl still think I am biased against DD because I didnt recommend one of their blocks heh) but it was good information.

The downside of testing with CPU and mobos are many: heat input is poorly qualified, many failpoints on cheap electronics parts (CPUs and mobos) lead to long downtimes and lengthy recalibration/retesting, people will complain when your test platform becomes obsolete or is not the same CPU type as the flavor of the month, and in general the testing is awkward to do when a whole computer gets thrown into the mix.

In a perfect world wbs would be tested on a platform like my old one for relative performance and on a die simulator/bench testing platform for results that could go into models etc.

BillA 11-18-2005 09:40 AM

I would observe that the devices being referred to can be used in an un-powered mobo, but such does not address heat from mosfets, etc

if mounting was complex before, try on BTX for some serious hardware

bigben2k 11-18-2005 10:50 AM

Thank you for your comments Roscal! (always appreciated!). Spot on.

jaydee 11-18-2005 11:08 AM

Swiftechs page has been resurrected: http://www.swiftnets.com/products/Apogee.asp


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