is there something i am missing??
ive been lurking around the forums for some time now, and it seems to me that the general consenus amongst the most knowledgeable here, is that the majority of mass produced waterblocks on the market are mediocre at best, both in quality and performance.
now this isnt a big deal, because like they say, "if you want something done right, do it yourself." and that is just what a lot of people do; they sit down and design well built, very high performing blocks. but what about those of us that lack the time, finances, resources, or general knowledge to build our own water blocks? are we at the mercy of the corporate market which has been relegated to nothing more then an insitiution of producing quantity at the cost of quality? i know that there is more than a wealth of information avialable on these forums and others like it, and i have learned more than i had ever expected from reading these forums, but the knowledge only goes so far when you are not able to apply it in a beneficial manner. perhaps there is something that i am missing, but it seems to me that people that are unable to build their own blocks are stuck having to settle for moderate (at best ) performance from the large companies that do not feel it is "cost effective" to mass produce some of the more effecient, performance oriented designs. im curious about everyone else's thoughts on this matter. its possible that i am reading waaaay too much into all of this, but it seems to me that there are not many options for people that lack access to the resources to build their own blocks. i welcome your comments. -KRyPTyK |
Actually, some of the commercial products will run quite well. Example: Swiftech, DangerDen, ... to name a few.
But it's always possible to extract more performance, hence the Cascade and Storm blocks. JayDee116 has a site running for fellow block makers: customcooledpc.com . The simplest DIY block to make is the #Rotor block. |
http://www.procooling.com/html/pro_testing.php
look at the wbs that can be purchased, and also at their respective cost #1 DD and Swiftech are not equal (the Dtek WW would have been a more appropriate comparison) #2 the G4 is clearly better, but there are reasons why such a design may not be suitable for the 'mass market' #3 a DIY wb WILL be inferior to the MCW6000 (anyone who thinks not, send your wb to pH), despite what is said by wannabes in short your entire premise is flawed, the best wbs are made by one individual in limited quantities at almost twice the price of the 2ed best wb which has lower maintenance and pump requirements does not seem too complicated to me |
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personally, i would love to try my hand at making my own waterblock, but as a single father of an autisitc child, i lack both the time and funds to do it. so what is the other option? sacrifice performance and buy a mass manufactured block??? |
what makes you think that you could make a wb to equal the G4 ?
or the MCW6000 ? no one else seems to be able to do so either as a company or an individual (the European wbs still being something of an unknown at this moment) be candid; you lack not only the 'time', but more significantly the expertise as well the difference is ~ 1°C (depending) |
a very valid point BillA..... i gues that i wasnt aware that there were such high performing blocks out there such as the MCW6000. i knew they performed well, just not nearly as well as they do. the comparison chart in the previous post cleared alot of that up.
all in all, i am guilty of failing to fully research what was available before trying to make my argument. i stand corrected. thanks for the input BillA. -KRyPTyK |
Bill, the latest blocks I have made are probably worth saying they pin the quality right on the noze, performance isnt completely known because I am lacking a completed testing setup and pH doesn't seem to want to test my blocks without showing pictures of the internals. If you can convince him otherwize, I am more than happy to send a couple peices his way.
-edit- The insides would get exposed sometime or another if I was to sell them, but in order for me to even go there I gotta know where they stand. After I decide to do that, I wouldn't care whats out there for pictures of the block. Jon |
did you not notice pH taking a can opener to the 6000 ?
expect the same A-B testing can pretty easily differentiate - though not quantify post your numbers |
lol, yeah I saw what he did to it, not like its hard to take off the 4 screws and pop it open;) I told him what I wanted and offered him some machining services.
Right now all I have set up is a c-systems pump, 80mm swiftech rad and 1/4" ID tubing and with all that said, My block performs 6 degrees better than the maze4 The fan was only pushing about 30cfm quietly. 24v delta 80cfm on 7v Jon |
the cover is soldered
+6°C (C not F, eh?) below the Maze4 puts you 1.5 to 2°C better than the G4 at 0.75gpm or 0.5°C better than the MCW6000 at 0.5gpm possible, but not likely |
Bill, this is on what I tested on, athlon 900mhz:) and thats °C And this is cpu over air temp so radiator is into this mess if it makes a difference. Like I said I dont have a decent testing bed.
My block is based on a little bit different design than most others, I have seen similar in part of the concept, and the internal structure is quite different. Jon |
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Given the weakest commonly used pump, the Eheim 1046, we're talking about 2.7LPM vs 3.3LPM. G4 starts off in front at this point and stretches the lead from there. While I will agree with respect to finely structured blocks demanding clean water on install and efforts to keep it that way, which is as simple as not having the water exposed to the open air, I do not agree to the lower pump requirements comment unless we're talking about some forced low-flow scenarios, such as with 8mm tubing on everything and 3 or 4 blocks in the loop. Just nit-picking though. I do agree though that designing and building such high-end waterblocks, whether we're talking about the Storm or MCW blocks, it is rapidly moving further and further out of the reach of the DIY person unless they both have an extremely good understanding of what it is that they are attempting and, for making one-offs, a lot of patience with the machining time and access to not-so-cheap tools. The days of a DIY'er whipping up a top-end block in the house shed with a drill-press, a dremel, and a couple of other backyard tools is long gone. |
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The two I made in the graph are not even close to tweaked for performance yet they are pretty close to your as it.... |
/sets up deck chair + opens popcorn & beer ;)
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so you're holding out on us jd ?
sending pH ringers, tsk tsk get it on guy focus on the 6000, the 6002 is not better |
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I, for one, am continually humbled at how 1C differences on my testbed always seems to translate to 0.4C differences on Phaestus's testbed. If you reckon you're sure you have a design that can beat the Swifty's or the Storm blocks, better make sure that your design is showing up with an improvement to be 3x better than what you normally would think would be enough to rein in the difference on your own testbed. Phaestus's testbed is incredibly unforgiving. |
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I do agree with your statment about DIY blocks though. I find it unlikely the average DIY'er could match the MCW6000 series blocks let alone beat it. I maybe full of myself but I think I am a level or two above the average DIY'er. :) |
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jd, both you and Rotor could have developed first rate wbs
- but it takes one hellofalot of effort to do so, prototyping and testing as the Cooling God said, bring it on |
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Like I said, I dont have a problem with him opening it, I just have a problem of him posting my goods on the internet or showing anyone else at the moment untill I decide on what to do with the design.
Cathar, I have the ability to make another one of these in about 2 hours, otherwize it would take about an hour a peice depending on how many I do, and this is on my machine. I work in a rather large machine shop that I would have no problem putting these in production if it became necessary;) Jon |
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Derek/Phaestus is someone you can trust if disclosure is a problem for you prior to the block's formal release. The MCW6000 that he tested was already a released block - which I believe explains his attitude towards opening and revealing it. If you are thinking of going commercial, I believe it would be a good idea to at least get an independent assessment of the design's performance. Even if you're not going to go commercial, better to know what it's performance is when independently assessed by a good testbed so you have can some weight behind your claims, otherwise it's just your word against people's inherent skepticism. When you're throwing around claims as impressive sounding as you're describing above, it'd surely be nice to know that private reality matches public reality. |
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