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-   -   Any news on the cascade xxx? (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=9144)

Halo_Master 03-09-2004 09:57 AM

Any news on the cascade xxx?
 
THe copper prototypes should be ready by now.
Cathar, any new info?

Cathar 03-09-2004 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halo_Master
THe copper prototypes should be ready by now.
Cathar, any new info?

I have a fairly casual relationship with my machinists, in that I'm not a large high-paying industrial customer. As such, all the jobs that I want done get shoved to the side the moment something more important comes along, which is the exact reason why the recent Cascade SS batch has only just started going out the door (half of the batch gone by today - rest by end of this week) despite me wanting to have it gone in January.

So the CNC machine is set up and has been since Friday, the pieces are in the vice, just as I physically witnessed, and then they had to attend to a customer on Friday. Monday was a public holiday, and yesterday they had another customer issue.

Hopefully today they'll consider pushing the green button.... :( Not for lack of me ringing up in excitement though.

|kbn| 03-09-2004 07:53 PM

Cathar Im interested in buying one of your blocks but ive noticed nowhere sells the cascade in the UK (I assume this thread is about a different version), are these commercially available at the moment or should I get a D.Tek white water instead?

Cathar 03-09-2004 11:47 PM

Well they started it up, but when it came to machining the jets the tubes fell apart. We're now exploring our options for different materials and/or machining methods. Just had a good long chat about what the machinists will try, going through a wide range of possible materials to use.

Basically it'll happen, one way or another, but it'll just take some time to get it sorted. It's just general teething issues when attempting to push the boundaries even further than what we are at present.

kbn, the Cascade was never a commercially sold block. I only offered it directly due to the number of people who had asked me to make one up for them. The Cascade SS is a solid silver version of the copper Cascade, which has its design slightly modified. The Cascade XXX is a block based on similar principles to the Cascade, but 3x the number of jets/cups in the same area. It is just an experimental block to see how far water-cooling can be taken, and it's presently at the stage of trying to figure out whether or not the thing can even be machined.

UberBlue 03-10-2004 02:03 AM

Have you considered hypodermic needle tubing? It's relatively cheap, stainless steel, and available in every size down to gnats ass.

Example.

Halo_Master 03-10-2004 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathar
I have a fairly casual relationship with my machinists, in that I'm not a large high-paying industrial customer. As such, all the jobs that I want done get shoved to the side the moment something more important comes along, which is the exact reason why the recent Cascade SS batch has only just started going out the door (half of the batch gone by today - rest by end of this week) despite me wanting to have it gone in January.

So the CNC machine is set up and has been since Friday, the pieces are in the vice, just as I physically witnessed, and then they had to attend to a customer on Friday. Monday was a public holiday, and yesterday they had another customer issue.

Hopefully today they'll consider pushing the green button.... :( Not for lack of me ringing up in excitement though.

Couldn't you ask the machinists to add one more cascade SS????? ;)
I want one so bad, but can't seem to find one.

Cathar 03-10-2004 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberBlue
Have you considered hypodermic needle tubing? It's relatively cheap, stainless steel, and available in every size down to gnats ass.

Example.

The hypodermic needle's 304/316 Stainless Steel (as with all stainless steels) will rust if left sitting with still water in contact with it. What this means is that once the block is installed, you basically cannot then take it out and leave it sitting about unless taking a good deal of care to dry it totally.

One of the materials we're looking at making the middle plate out of is 420 Stainless Steel (commonly used for cutlery), but again has the same issues with rust if left damp. The plate would be machined, drilled, and EDM'ed into a single solid piece.

The corrosion process is also accelerated if the steels are left sitting in damp contact with copper or silver, possibly leading to blocked tubes. As long as the water is flowing, it's all good.

I'd like the blocks to be fairly maintenance free in terms of corrosion, without the need to pull them apart and dry them out every time the block is removed from the system.

We're still trying to see if we can conventionally machine the middle plate. The first material we tried was too brittle.

UberBlue 03-10-2004 03:07 AM

I didn't realize SS would do that. Rust that is.

Must of been some freaky SS alloy we had. Exposed to hot sea water without a spot of rust the entire time I was around.

Instead of a polycarb middle, what about something like brass or bronze then?

Just tossing out ideas. I'm sure you and your machinist know what yer doin.

PS, get my mail about the Cascade thread sizes?

leejsmith 03-10-2004 03:08 AM

are you going to add something to help align a cascade when you put one back to gether after a clean even if it's a small mark on one side ?
when i clean mine i can never be sure even when there is a bit of water inside you still cant see it that well.

good luck with the xxx do you think you can get temps any lower with the amount that the tim will effect your rise over ambient ?
i remeber you saying that you are very close with the original cascade anyway


Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathar
The hypodermic needle's 304/316 Stainless Steel (as with all stainless steels) will rust if left sitting with still water in contact with it. What this means is that once the block is installed, you basically cannot then take it out and leave it sitting about unless taken a good deal of care to dry it totally.

One of the materials we're looking at making the middle plate out of is 420 Stainless Steel (commonly used for cutlery), but again has the same issues with rust if left damp. The plate would be machined, drilled, and EDM'ed into a single solid piece.

The corrosion process is also accelerated if the steels are left sitting in damp contact with copper or silver, possibly leading to blocked tubes. As long as the water is flowing, it's all good.

I'd like the blocks to be fairly maintenance free in terms of corrosion, without the need to pull them apart and dry them out every time the block is removed from the system.

We're still trying to see if we can conventionally machine the middle plate. The first material we tried was too brittle.


Cathar 03-10-2004 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejsmith
good luck with the xxx do you think you can get temps any lower with the amount that the tim will effect your rise over ambient ?
i remeber you saying that you are very close with the original cascade anyway

The XXX is more about exploring better overclocking through better hot-spot management, than it is about getting better temperatures. I honestly don't expect anything more than a 1C gain over a Cascade SS.

Cathar 03-10-2004 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberBlue
I didn't realize SS would do that. Rust that is.

Must of been some freaky SS alloy we had. Exposed to hot sea water without a spot of rust the entire time I was around.

Instead of a polycarb middle, what about something like brass or bronze then?

Just tossing out ideas. I'm sure you and your machinist know what yer doin.

PS, get my mail about the Cascade thread sizes?

There are specialised variants of SS that are very rust resistant. Some are uber-expensive (as in they cost as much as silver does by weight), are others are just extremely hard to machine.

The issue here is looking for something that is both corrosion resistant, and is easy to machine, including drilling with 0.022" drill bits, and is going to EDM fairly easily.

The choice is either metal or plastic. If metal, then it has to be able to be crafted as required. If plastic, it has to be machinable to the level of finery required.

jlrii 03-10-2004 05:21 AM

Have they mentioned pressing tubing of one type or another into an intermediate plate, possibly polycarbonate. I imagine it would be quite expensive to do on a piecemeal basis but if production is at all in the future a jig could easily be made. I think brass tubing would stand up to being press fit into polycarbonate if it was internally suported by the jig used to press it into place, and the interference of the fit was not too extreme. Another option with press fitting is to cool the part to be inserted and heat the part that recieves it, contacting one and expanding the other resulting in an intrerference fit once the parts have reached equilibrium. While this aproach adds to assembly costs it will reduce machining time as the intermediate plate would only require chamfered holes to accept the nozzles. The nozzles, if a stock size tubing is available to meet your needs, would only have to be cut to length and possbly chamfered to reduce tip turbulence. Just a thought.

EDIT: if stock brass tubing of the proper size is not avalable another option would be to use brass round stock to be drilled after assembly. And if the space between the holes accepting the jets is too small for poly and cracing results brass could also be used for the intemediate plate and the the tubes either sweat or pressed into place.

JR

|kbn| 03-10-2004 10:16 AM

what about using a very hot needle the right size to melt/push holes in the polycarb?
Ive forgot what the top of the cascade looks like, but have you considered making the jets a seperate part, like the accelerator plate like with the dd rbx, as this would make it easyer as you wouldntneed to EDM it - not sure what this means but I assume the way the rest of the top is machined.. This might make it difficult to align the jets with the cups?

Cathar 03-10-2004 07:01 PM

jlrii, the biggest problem being faced right now is drilling. Need to drill down 6mm or so with an extremely fine drill bit (that's just 5-6x thicker than a human hair).

You're right, the other option to go with is press-fit, but then it's a matter of finding an appropriate material to use. Stainless Steel is very tempting, but on the whole it's not going to be great in the really long term unless one uses performance sapping water additives. I'd like for the middle plate to be durable, and that pretty much means using some plastic variant unless I can find copper/brass micro-tubes (ala 21 Guage hypodermic needle size).

I do have some Stimpson eyelets, in fact I have the smallest they offer, and they are still too big.

I'll see if I can hunt down some copper micro-tubing...

|kbn| 03-11-2004 12:25 AM

could the holes be made with a mold and cast using copper or other metal?
If they were plastic, could you make the jets by vacum foruming or melting/molding the plastic in some way?

Does the part with the jets have to be 6mm deep? would it affect performnace if it was 1mm or 2mm?

bigben2k 03-11-2004 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathar
...

I'll see if I can hunt down some copper micro-tubing...

Back to the original idea, eh? ;)

I was thinking about you today, when I came across a link to this site:
http://www.nyltite.com/
(Seems to be down right now)

They manufacture thin walled nylon components, as bearings, bushings, and standoffs. You can try e-mailing Mr Nyles directly: ncorporati at aol.com .

jlrii 03-11-2004 04:17 AM

Capillary tubing for refrigeration would probably be too large, it is only available down to 0.66mm ID...even if the ID was ok the OD would probably be a problem 0.66 mm would have an OD of 1.83mm. You could also try capillary tubing for medical use, that is available in plastic, silica or glass down to very small sizes with incredibly thin walls. Either could be held in place in the intermediate plate with adhesive or perhaps a thermal interference fit. Hmmm...glass jets....kind of exotic, I think the silica stuff has thinner wall though and would be less prone to breakage, it is somewhat flexible I dunno if that would be a hassle with close tolerences .

Some info :

Wide ranges of sizes with internal diameters less than 1 micron up to several millimeters and outer diameters down to 60 microns and up to several millimeters.
Unique internal and external geometries
Excellent chemical durability and inertness
Silica and quartz that are stronger than steel
Materials that are easy to cleave or cut
Tight yet economical tolerances

Link here

Pricing doesn't look bad either $15 US per meter $100 minimum

EDIT: Hmm.....proly enough left over to make a few extra blocks....wink...nod

liaisonextreme 03-11-2004 10:25 AM

I want a Cascade SS. Where can I get one???

8-Ball 03-11-2004 10:28 AM

Cathar,

What exactly is it you are having trouble with with regard to the machining of the middle plate.

If the plastic is melting, could you not connect each middle plate with the top side machined to a top plate and pump water through it.

I'm sorry if that's no good. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure how the middle plate is made. I guess that would only work if you drilled the holes then machined away the remainder.

Just an idea anyway.

Good luck mate!

8-ball

|kbn| 03-15-2004 05:33 PM

I just thought of something. What about body filler, its sorta like plastic/glue, you mix hardner then it sets to the shape you left it in. You could build a mould out of steel that has hyperdermic needles going through it (they were the right size wernt they? only prob was they are steel?). Then you mix up the resin with hardner, fill the mould and put a lid on it to sqaush it into the right shape/into the corners. The advantage with this is, assuming the needles are tapered at the end, you could achive very small holes. Infact you dont need hyperdermic needles, just any thin pin as the plasitc will set around it. there wouldnt be any mehcaniclal stress on it when being made, so it should be strong enough. I havent tryed using this on any blocks yet but I was originally going to use it to make a lid for my block as I couldnt get polycarb here in the UK. I think I may try this myself *IF* I ever try a jet impingemnt block.

guandi 03-15-2004 06:22 PM

This may be a long shot, but a few days ago i half watched a program about medical research that said something along the lines of metal needles for cell injection were too big, so they used high strength Glass ones. i heard something about glass being melted, and then suction formed into tube shaped down to "one millionth of an inch" ID.

I too want a Cascade, SS would be prefered but anythign will do :P

Cathar 03-15-2004 07:09 PM

Turns out the machinists were using acrylic, rather than polycarb. I explicitly asked for poly-carb, but they wanted to see if it would work with acrylic since they didn't have any suitable polycarb lying about.

8-ball, what was going on was that as the tubes were being machined down, the ends of the tubes would chip away, leaving a tubeless piece. This is exactly what I feared would happen if acrylic was used. Acrylic is quite a deal more brittle than polycarb and doesn't handle vibrational stresses that well. It'll just crack if you try to cut it too fine. The tubes have 0.20mm wall thickness while being cut, and the acrylic was just falling away as a result of the cutting action acting on so thin of a thickness.

The 0.20mm wall thickness is actually about the same that is on the current Cascade, for which the wall thickness varies between 0.20-0.30mm with the hexagonal shape of the tubes when being cut. They then get drilled out to around 0.10mm thickness at the thinnest bits, so I know that polycarb is capable of being machined to such levels.

The thing is now that they've been set back with the acrylic they are reluctant to re-try with polycarb. LOL - I always tell the machinists that it's my job to push them to levels that they never knew they could achieve, and the sales rep for the NC mill continues to be impressed at the levels being pushed, so I find myself (again) in the situation of trying to convince them that they can do it. They'll come around with a bit of pursuading. I seem to go through this with them every time I ask for something new.

|kbn| 03-15-2004 08:14 PM

Im interested whats the ID of the jets? 0.10mm wall thichness, you must have a lot of jets on this one then!
I havent used polycarb yet but polyethelene would seem to be a lot less brittle and wont crack when drilled/overtigtened/machined, dunno how well it would work so with holes so small though. The stuff I have is translucent though and clear would be best for blocks...

Cathar 03-15-2004 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by |kbn|
Im interested whats the ID of the jets? 0.10mm wall thichness, you must have a lot of jets on this one then!

149 jets

Yeah - I'd consider polyeth if needed. It doesn't have to be clear, so long as it works. The polycarb is very resilient though. You can grab a jet tube on the Cascade, fold it sideways completely, and then bend it back, and it won't have snapped, and will mostly retain its shape. Do that to acrylic and it'll snap as soon as you apply sideways pressure to it.

kronchev 03-15-2004 11:00 PM

just wondering, but why hasnt any of the major block makers picked up your design yet? or have you not let it go? large scale manufacturing would be great, I would actually get one :D


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