Need suggestions Copper or Aluminum

maskedgeek · 08-24-2002, 10:49 PM

Ok heres the deal. I'm gonna get some metal soon, copper or aluminum... Heres the other deal, a good waterblock will perform the same in Aluminum as in Copper.... Here's another thing aluminum is cheaper, aluminum is a ton easier to machine you wont have corosion if you use waterwetter and proper corosion prevention

Heres what I'm plannin on doing, I plan on making custom blocks(to an extent till i get my mill) and sell them, then raise money to buy my mill i need 300-500bucks THEN ill make ultra nice blocks!

So what I want to know is if you peeps would still buy them if they were aluminum vs copper.... Like If you would refrain from buying them or anything, Im gonna order the metal prob monday or so... they are gonna be sealed by solder(aluminum solder) or a gasket and screwed together, and I can make them the rite sizes for your mounting....

Thank You

tokamac · 08-25-2002, 01:47 AM

I would definately go with copper because here is the deal:
If you assign copper a value of 100 for it's "Relative thermal conductivity" then the following table applies:

Silver 108
Copper 100
Gold 76
Aluminum 56
Magnesium 41
Iron 17
Steel 13-17

Table 6-1 Smith, "Structure and Properties of Engineering Alloys, 2nd ed." 1993
(partially reproduced)

As you can see the thermal conductivity for copper is almost twice that of Aluminum. You may get similar results with well designed blocks if the copper is significantly alloyed (structural grade copper, adding even small ammounts of strengthening elements reduces the conducitvity significantly.)

Tokamac

Can O' Beans · 08-25-2002, 04:18 AM

Well, we know copper is better as a thermal conductor than aluminum but is that difference even noticeable when comparing 2 equally created, highly efficient waterblocks?

It might be slightly noticable in low end WC systems, but probably won't show any difference in a high end system.

I wouldn't buy a block, as i like experimenting with my own. But for my current project, I'm going to initially try Aluminum blocks as I've recently learned how to solder them.

But if an Al block were shown to be equal in cooling to a Cu block, then I would buy the AL block.

BaconGrease · 08-25-2002, 09:00 AM

be forewarned, making a product and selling it are two different things.
You should be prepared for service emails,

general bitching about your product,

calls for refunds

and replacements etc.

maskedgeek · 08-25-2002, 01:06 PM

you wanna help me out on the soldering? i know of some solder paste that i can get for aluminum but what do you know about soldering aluminum

yes i know about that bacon, im basicly gonna cuztom mill these for the people who cant... and who want them, make them fool proof, like soldered together no problems with leakage etc.. mounting perfect, perfect finish on base... its really not that difficult...

bigben2k · 08-25-2002, 05:47 PM

MaskedGeek: I like your idea, and I for one would certainly make use of your services, but I do require copper.

Additives will help prevent corrosion, but they don't actually stop it, they just delay it. That being said, there are ways around the problem, by using an all Aluminium rig. If I was you, I'd concentrate on sourcing an Alu heatercore.

maskedgeek · 08-25-2002, 07:08 PM

aluminum heatercores arent that hard to get, i had one once.... dont remember whathappened to it, i still have part of it

but i would still do copper... it would just cost more for both reasons, material is 2x the price and millling time is more than 2x

Gnozo · 08-26-2002, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by maskedgeek
aluminum heatercores arent that hard to get, i had one once.... dont remember whathappened to it, i still have part of it

Hmm...I have more trouble finding copper/brass heatercores, than finding alu ones? I would kill for a Chevette heatercore though...that model ya all use?

maskedgeek · 08-26-2002, 06:18 PM

i dont knwo the model i dont have a al core rite now... i have 2 copper cores sitting infront of me, chevette and camaro core...

BillA · 08-26-2002, 09:56 PM

Lytron ES0707
specs on their site
special connections; 3/4in. inlet, 1/2in. outlet - barbed
172mm fan mounting plate

PM me if you want one

maskedgeek · 08-27-2002, 12:15 AM

hey billA would you be interested in testing aluminum vs copper if i supply the blocks, exaclty the same??? or have you already and waht were the results???

thanx

BillA · 08-27-2002, 08:17 AM

you would be well advised to start believing in the body of knowledge called 'material science'

when your test results are in conflict with known material characteristics, your results are "wrong"
- due to test design, equipment, and/or procedures

as part of a test series (still unfinished) I have looked at aluminum and copper bps of different thicknesses mounted on 'The King of Testing Waterblocks', an old style MCW462

out of curiosity, where are you getting slugs of pure aluminum ?
- all alloys have much lower thermal conductivity

maskedgeek · 08-27-2002, 08:33 AM

no its not pure aluminum its 6061 and the copper is 110 the copper isnt pure either, so whats the diff, would you be interested in testing identical blocks??? they are cnced... i will have the aluminum one done in a little while,

BillA · 08-27-2002, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by maskedgeek
no its not pure aluminum its 6061 and the copper is 110 the copper isnt pure either, so whats the diff, . . . .

try google to find "the diff"
it would seem that you do not know what C110 is, try this page
(citation #8 under "C110 copper" from google)

you should investigate BEFORE you post, so as to seem less, ahem, ignorant

maskedgeek · 08-27-2002, 09:35 AM

ok maby im rong, we arent always rite its a simple question, would you like to test the diff between copper and aluminum on a high performing waterblock?

BillA · 08-27-2002, 09:53 AM

thanks for the offer, but I've already done such
which is better ?
copper, as would be expected
how much better ?
depends on a number of factors related to the wb's configuration

but copper will always be better

is copper cost effective ?

THAT is a value judgment made by the purchaser

question: why target the 'low' end of the market ?

(you are not displaying any technical sophistication)

bigben2k · 08-27-2002, 10:20 AM

Maskedgeek: for what it's worth, here's a couple of websites where you might be able to double check BillA's info:

www.copper.org

http://www.busbymetals.com/wire.htm

http://www.ccbda.org/

and the google search:
http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=copper+alloy

(Always confirm your data from at least 2 other sources)

maskedgeek · 08-27-2002, 11:20 AM

thanx for the links, billa what was the diff between copper an al in your tests? i would like to see this? and was it with identical blocks?
question: why target the 'low' end of the market ? what do you mean 'low' end? just because its aluminum its low end? not exactly...

bigben2k · 08-27-2002, 11:28 AM

From what I've seen of BillA's graphs (or someone else at OC), the difference can be quite large, for similar designs, but it depends on a number of things: for example flow rate.

At 300gph, the difference between Alu and Cu is 3 deg C (core temp). The thing is, most people aren't running at 300 gph, and the difference is far greater at lower flow rates (10 deg C plus).

maskedgeek · 08-27-2002, 11:43 AM

you didnt see my popcan al vs cu thing did you? there was 1c diff, used a maxijet 1200 thats 295gph at head, and about 100 going thru the block...

BillA · 08-27-2002, 11:54 AM

perhaps reference is being made to Aesik's 'calculator' (as I call it)
which is very much in a prototype phase; it should not be used to quantify differences - rather it is 'illustrative'

bear also in mind that as 'we' characterize thermal impedance with the (hack) "C/W"
- which includes also the TIM joint
the temp diff between Al and Cu is directly related to the applied load

N.B. the applied load is NOT "W" from Radiate (for example) as "W" is overstated AND not corrected to reflect the secondary path heat dissipation

bigben2k · 08-27-2002, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by maskedgeek
you didnt see my popcan al vs cu thing did you? there was 1c diff, used a maxijet 1200 thats 295gph at head, and about 100 going thru the block...

No I didn't.

I would question your measurements, but I'll go find your article/posts first.

maskedgeek · 08-27-2002, 12:13 PM

yes the measurements werent perfect i can say that, the post was at overclockers but it did show that it wasnt much of a diff at all

and billa you saw that fixittt made a aluminum spir@l and got same performance as the copper spir@l?

bigben2k · 08-27-2002, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by maskedgeek
you didnt see my popcan al vs cu thing did you? there was 1c diff, used a maxijet 1200 thats 295gph at head, and about 100 going thru the block...

So you're Jon...

You know, that's the only homemade gettho block I've seen that actually works well. Congrats!

In the article, you didn't specify the thickness of the Alu and Cu. The 3 deg C difference is a comparison of Al and Cu ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, so for the same thickness. Was this the case?

From the threads, I can see that you used 1/8 in. thick copper (that's 3mm).

maskedgeek · 08-27-2002, 12:20 PM

the base was 1/8 on both blocks. yep thats me im Jon, im gonna email joe and tell him to take out epoxy and silicone for glueing it jbweld is by far the best... and when i took the copper one apart i did see corosion on the aluminum can part...

08-24-2002, 10:49 PM	#1
maskedgeek Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: poop Posts: 145	Need suggestions Copper or Aluminum Ok heres the deal. I'm gonna get some metal soon, copper or aluminum... Heres the other deal, a good waterblock will perform the same in Aluminum as in Copper.... Here's another thing aluminum is cheaper, aluminum is a ton easier to machine you wont have corosion if you use waterwetter and proper corosion prevention Heres what I'm plannin on doing, I plan on making custom blocks(to an extent till i get my mill) and sell them, then raise money to buy my mill i need 300-500bucks THEN ill make ultra nice blocks! So what I want to know is if you peeps would still buy them if they were aluminum vs copper.... Like If you would refrain from buying them or anything, Im gonna order the metal prob monday or so... they are gonna be sealed by solder(aluminum solder) or a gasket and screwed together, and I can make them the rite sizes for your mounting.... Thank You

08-25-2002, 09:00 AM	#4
BaconGrease Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Richmond Posts: 85	be forewarned, making a product and selling it are two different things. You should be prepared for service emails, general bitching about your product, calls for refunds and replacements etc. __________________ Damn that is hot

08-25-2002, 05:47 PM	#6
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	MaskedGeek: I like your idea, and I for one would certainly make use of your services, but I do require copper. Additives will help prevent corrosion, but they don't actually stop it, they just delay it. That being said, there are ways around the problem, by using an all Aluminium rig. If I was you, I'd concentrate on sourcing an Alu heatercore. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

08-27-2002, 10:20 AM	#17
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Maskedgeek: for what it's worth, here's a couple of websites where you might be able to double check BillA's info: www.copper.org http://www.busbymetals.com/wire.htm http://www.ccbda.org/ and the google search: http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=copper+alloy (Always confirm your data from at least 2 other sources) __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

08-27-2002, 11:28 AM	#19
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	From what I've seen of BillA's graphs (or someone else at OC), the difference can be quite large, for similar designs, but it depends on a number of things: for example flow rate. At 300gph, the difference between Alu and Cu is 3 deg C (core temp). The thing is, most people aren't running at 300 gph, and the difference is far greater at lower flow rates (10 deg C plus). __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

08-25-2002, 01:47 AM	#2
tokamac Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: G-Town NC Posts: 51	I would definately go with copper because here is the deal: If you assign copper a value of 100 for it's "Relative thermal conductivity" then the following table applies: Silver 108 Copper 100 Gold 76 Aluminum 56 Magnesium 41 Iron 17 Steel 13-17 Table 6-1 Smith, "Structure and Properties of Engineering Alloys, 2nd ed." 1993 (partially reproduced) As you can see the thermal conductivity for copper is almost twice that of Aluminum. You may get similar results with well designed blocks if the copper is significantly alloyed (structural grade copper, adding even small ammounts of strengthening elements reduces the conducitvity significantly.) Tokamac

08-25-2002, 04:18 AM	#3
Can O' Beans Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Pa - USA Posts: 264	Well, we know copper is better as a thermal conductor than aluminum but is that difference even noticeable when comparing 2 equally created, highly efficient waterblocks? It might be slightly noticable in low end WC systems, but probably won't show any difference in a high end system. I wouldn't buy a block, as i like experimenting with my own. But for my current project, I'm going to initially try Aluminum blocks as I've recently learned how to solder them. But if an Al block were shown to be equal in cooling to a Cu block, then I would buy the AL block.

08-25-2002, 01:06 PM	#5
maskedgeek Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: poop Posts: 145	you wanna help me out on the soldering? i know of some solder paste that i can get for aluminum but what do you know about soldering aluminum yes i know about that bacon, im basicly gonna cuztom mill these for the people who cant... and who want them, make them fool proof, like soldered together no problems with leakage etc.. mounting perfect, perfect finish on base... its really not that difficult...

08-25-2002, 07:08 PM	#7
maskedgeek Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: poop Posts: 145	aluminum heatercores arent that hard to get, i had one once.... dont remember whathappened to it, i still have part of it but i would still do copper... it would just cost more for both reasons, material is 2x the price and millling time is more than 2x

08-26-2002, 06:18 PM	#9
maskedgeek Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: poop Posts: 145	i dont knwo the model i dont have a al core rite now... i have 2 copper cores sitting infront of me, chevette and camaro core...

08-26-2002, 09:56 PM	#10
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	Lytron ES0707 specs on their site special connections; 3/4in. inlet, 1/2in. outlet - barbed 172mm fan mounting plate PM me if you want one

08-27-2002, 12:15 AM	#11
maskedgeek Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: poop Posts: 145	hey billA would you be interested in testing aluminum vs copper if i supply the blocks, exaclty the same??? or have you already and waht were the results??? thanx

08-27-2002, 08:17 AM	#12
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	you would be well advised to start believing in the body of knowledge called 'material science' when your test results are in conflict with known material characteristics, your results are "wrong" - due to test design, equipment, and/or procedures as part of a test series (still unfinished) I have looked at aluminum and copper bps of different thicknesses mounted on 'The King of Testing Waterblocks', an old style MCW462 out of curiosity, where are you getting slugs of pure aluminum ? - all alloys have much lower thermal conductivity

08-27-2002, 08:33 AM	#13
maskedgeek Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: poop Posts: 145	no its not pure aluminum its 6061 and the copper is 110 the copper isnt pure either, so whats the diff, would you be interested in testing identical blocks??? they are cnced... i will have the aluminum one done in a little while,

08-27-2002, 09:35 AM	#15
maskedgeek Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: poop Posts: 145	ok maby im rong, we arent always rite its a simple question, would you like to test the diff between copper and aluminum on a high performing waterblock?

08-27-2002, 09:53 AM	#16
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	thanks for the offer, but I've already done such which is better ? copper, as would be expected how much better ? depends on a number of factors related to the wb's configuration but copper will always be better is copper cost effective ? THAT is a value judgment made by the purchaser question: why target the 'low' end of the market ? (you are not displaying any technical sophistication)

08-27-2002, 11:20 AM	#18
maskedgeek Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: poop Posts: 145	thanx for the links, billa what was the diff between copper an al in your tests? i would like to see this? and was it with identical blocks? question: why target the 'low' end of the market ? what do you mean 'low' end? just because its aluminum its low end? not exactly...

08-27-2002, 11:43 AM	#20
maskedgeek Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: poop Posts: 145	you didnt see my popcan al vs cu thing did you? there was 1c diff, used a maxijet 1200 thats 295gph at head, and about 100 going thru the block...

08-27-2002, 11:54 AM	#21
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	perhaps reference is being made to Aesik's 'calculator' (as I call it) which is very much in a prototype phase; it should not be used to quantify differences - rather it is 'illustrative' bear also in mind that as 'we' characterize thermal impedance with the (hack) "C/W" - which includes also the TIM joint the temp diff between Al and Cu is directly related to the applied load N.B. the applied load is NOT "W" from Radiate (for example) as "W" is overstated AND not corrected to reflect the secondary path heat dissipation

08-27-2002, 12:13 PM	#23
maskedgeek Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: poop Posts: 145	yes the measurements werent perfect i can say that, the post was at overclockers but it did show that it wasnt much of a diff at all and billa you saw that fixittt made a aluminum spir@l and got same performance as the copper spir@l?

08-27-2002, 12:20 PM	#25
maskedgeek Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: poop Posts: 145	the base was 1/8 on both blocks. yep thats me im Jon, im gonna email joe and tell him to take out epoxy and silicone for glueing it jbweld is by far the best... and when i took the copper one apart i did see corosion on the aluminum can part...

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