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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 02-06-2004, 06:16 AM   #1
tobyed2
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To Lap or not ?

Bought a Danger Den RBX, bit concerned about the review here with regard to fiiting it to an AMD (which I am about to do) , the base has been hand lapped to 1200 grit, there appears to be what looks like black finger prints on one side. Yeah, a picture would be great but cant get hold of my camera just now... I'll add one just as soon as I can find it... Organised chaos...

I have read a couple of acrticles (googled) where people recommend NOT lapping actually saying that it would "ruin" the block. Some saying having a too flat a surface makes the thermal past "swim" between CPU and block (the pastes function being to fill the microscopic valleys in CPU and block).

Is there anything to gain hand lapping @ 1200 grit an already hand lapped block @ 1200 grit ?

I know higher grades of paper exist, finding them here in the UK is another matter. My local Hombases idea of "Fine" is 650 !!!

Also with regard to these accelerator fittings is the general consensus that a #4 is optimal ? (My system is - MCP600, Danger Den HC, Maze4 GPU, Z chipset, 1/2" ID).
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Unread 02-06-2004, 09:04 AM   #2
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I don't klnow much about lapping except the better the contact the better heat will travel between the two surfaces.... so the flater you can get it the better.

As to the RBX being diiferent to any other block is byond me.. except for the fact that the RBX is a B**** to mount properly so it could be that will be impacting on the results.

NB: Homebase rocks! Only place I can find locally that stocks the right sort of modding paraphanial.

~ Boli
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Unread 02-06-2004, 09:22 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boli
I don't klnow much about lapping except the better the contact the better heat will travel between the two surfaces.... so the flater you can get it the better.

As to the RBX being diiferent to any other block is byond me.. except for the fact that the RBX is a B**** to mount properly so it could be that will be impacting on the results.

NB: Homebase rocks! Only place I can find locally that stocks the right sort of modding paraphanial.

~ Boli
I can see from your rig stats that youve got an 1800+, are you using the RBX ? I guess I'll know if its mounted correctly by the temps ?

I guess we are talking about equal turns on all 4 sides to make even pressure on the core ?

What I am planning to do is cut a hole in the mb case tray so that I can get to the mounting screws for the WB from the opposite side, that way just need to remove a side panel and tighten away rather than fumble between all the pipework ... Doesnt help if I have to reseat the whole block though ...

Dont get me wrong, Homebase great store, redecorated my whole house using them saved a fortune with Spend & Save Just funny how package just says "3 Course, 3 Medium, 3 Fine", I had to open it to see what grade they really were !
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Unread 02-06-2004, 09:26 AM   #4
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Forgot to add -
Just noticed your internet server 2000+, I guess youve had more luck overclocking the 1800+ than the 2000+ ? Just curious as I have both chips too.
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Unread 02-06-2004, 09:49 AM   #5
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I lap everything, (I have a granite slab someone threw out) so things come out flat enough and need just a tiny bit of paste. Auto stores have all the 3m sandpaper I need (1000/1500/2000) and for final polish, flip over the 2000 and use some ceramique and water (I have .6 micron polishing compound but I get a nice shine when I buff in the ceramique too.)
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Unread 02-06-2004, 03:32 PM   #6
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Yep, Lapping is the best thing you can do. The less heat paste, the better. it does not matter what type you use, compated to sollid, they all "suck".
As it is not possible to make a solid cpu and waterblock in one, we have to deal with it.

With a compleate flat surface, you won't need heatpaste at all. Just press the air out, and it won't come lose. (like 2 glass plates) Ju might want to use some silicone oil for the micro gaps.
There are construction factories who can do this. I'm not sure if they will do it for a private person, but it will be costly
And as we like DIY, a mirror, sandpaper up to 3000, polish, as3, as5, ketchup will do wonders. (as3 and AS5 used for lapping) (ketchup contains accid, and it laps the last micron's)

Please look also at :
http://guides.pimprig.com/modding/mi...sh_lapping.php
http://www.stellafane.com/atm/atm_grind/atm_rough.htm
http://www.stellafane.com/atm/atm_grind/atm_fine.htm
http://www.stellafane.com/atm/atm_polish/atm_polish.htm

After you have followed the guides, you know what I mean, and you'll have the lowest temps possible with your current gear and setup.
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Unread 02-06-2004, 04:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobyed2
I can see from your rig stats that youve got an 1800+, are you using the RBX ? I guess I'll know if its mounted correctly by the temps ?

I guess we are talking about equal turns on all 4 sides to make even pressure on the core ?

What I am planning to do is cut a hole in the mb case tray so that I can get to the mounting screws for the WB from the opposite side, that way just need to remove a side panel and tighten away rather than fumble between all the pipework ... Doesnt help if I have to reseat the whole block though ...

Dont get me wrong, Homebase great store, redecorated my whole house using them saved a fortune with Spend & Save Just funny how package just says "3 Course, 3 Medium, 3 Fine", I had to open it to see what grade they really were !

Just noticed your internet server 2000+, I guess youve had more luck overclocking the 1800+ than the 2000+ ? Just curious as I have both chips too.
Nope using a Maze3 (ala sig), and yes an 1800+ OCs better than a 2000+... I managed to pull my 2000+ up to 1.9gig on the same setup as my 1800+ which acheived a 2.2g (the 1800+ a ''B core the 2000+ an 'A' core) - Both stable.

Get some bolts or locking nuts for the back of the motherboards so you don't HAVE to cut the mobo tray. I myself have actually superglued the nuts onto the end of the threads for my block (thus making bolts) SO I dont have to remove my mobo or cut my tray.

RBX:

You should see a big difference is the block is very poorly mounted but the wrong mouting preasure (maybe too much on one side) could not ony crack the core but give worse temp readings (Maybe not much but, still woprse temps give worse OC), the RBX because of its shape is very hard to to mount square, thus you should allways take the RBX results with a grain of salt when reading up on the block (unless of course the tester has take this into account.)


Homebase:

Look for METAL sandpaper (enry(sp?) cloth/board) for thoe REALLY fine grits... it will be in a different section to the wood.

~ Boli
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Unread 02-06-2004, 05:10 PM   #8
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Try Halfords for fine sandpaper, they definitly stock up to 1500 and maybe above.
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Unread 02-06-2004, 08:20 PM   #9
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I got my mums boyfriend (who's an expert at this stuff as he is an engineer type) to do it for me, along with my shroud :P
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Unread 02-07-2004, 12:21 AM   #10
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I have to say, DD products are NOT lapped to 1200 grit, and, if they are, they are lapped VERY POORLY to 1200 grit. I saw improvement with 600 grit.
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Unread 02-07-2004, 04:01 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca
I have to say, DD products are NOT lapped to 1200 grit, and, if they are, they are lapped VERY POORLY to 1200 grit. I saw improvement with 600 grit.
Not just my imagination then

Right, wheres that block ...

Someone mentioned TOMATO KETCHUP (!) is this used instead of the washing up liquid or water ? Dread to think what stuff does to your insides then.
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Unread 02-07-2004, 05:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobyed2
Not just my imagination then

Right, wheres that block ...

Someone mentioned TOMATO KETCHUP (!) is this used instead of the washing up liquid or water ? Dread to think what stuff does to your insides then.
You first lap it to 3000 grid, then use polish, then AS after this ketchup.
Ketchup also makes it nice shiny
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Unread 02-07-2004, 06:02 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhorst
You first lap it to 3000 grid, then use polish, then AS after this ketchup.
Ketchup also makes it nice shiny
Can any polish be used without harming the block ? I've got some Brasso here (its a metal polish, no idea whats in it).

Sorry must be really dumb, whats AS ?

Just lapped with 1200 the RBX and NB block, already a difference, cant beleive its aledgedly supplied as lapped to 1200 ...

I think i need to continue lapping, perhaps drop back to 600 ? I've got a shiny ring around the outside edge, the centre looks a bit cloudy, ah, I can feel a picture coming on.
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File Type: jpg Before.jpg (106.2 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg After.jpg (89.0 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg Cloudy.jpg (75.8 KB, 24 views)
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Unread 02-07-2004, 06:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobyed2
Can any polish be used without harming the block ? I've got some Brasso here (its a metal polish, no idea whats in it).

Sorry must be really dumb, whats AS ?

Just lapped with 1200 the RBX and NB block, already a difference, cant beleive its aledgedly supplied as lapped to 1200 ...

I think i need to continue lapping, perhaps drop back to 600 ? I've got a shiny ring around the outside edge, the centre looks a bit cloudy, ah, I can feel a picture coming on.
i would imagine AS is Arctic Silver...

can't help feeling that using a polish risks leaving a residue on the block
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Unread 02-07-2004, 06:51 AM   #15
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You can use brasso for the edges. it leaves a protective film on the copper, and that does not conduct heat very well. For me with and without braso was a temp diff of 0.5 degreees.

(Halfords, Brasso.. Are you from the Netherlands?)
- edit- I saw the penny... UK rihgt?

And if you use the right pollish, there will be no residue. Touthpaste also works fine!
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Unread 02-07-2004, 07:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhorst
You can use brasso for the edges. it leaves a protective film on the copper, and that does not conduct heat very well. For me with and without braso was a temp diff of 0.5 degreees.

(Halfords, Brasso.. Are you from the Netherlands?)
- edit- I saw the penny... UK rihgt?

And if you use the right pollish, there will be no residue. Touthpaste also works fine!
Yes, UK ! Water cooling is much more commercially available compared to 2 years ago, but finding the pro kit is still a challenge.

Fhorst, when you say AS3, AS5 to lap with do you actually put Arctic Silver on the block and rub it onto the glass ?

Crickey, toothpaste. Macleans bright white

I'm still lapping at 1200, the "cloud" in the center is gradually going ...
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Unread 02-07-2004, 10:37 AM   #17
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Woohoo, cloud gone, well chuffed

And my metal work teacher said I didnt have a future ...

Now this is what I expected to receive ...
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Unread 02-07-2004, 11:25 AM   #18
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I got a DD RBX, it wasnt the best finish i have seen, but definatly not the worst *cough* amd stock hs *cough* i lapped with with 400 first, and then 1200, 1200 wet+fairy, 1200+silicon oil, brasso wadding, brasso on kitchen towel, brasso on duster. its now almost as smooth as glass, except for a scratch just outside of where the cpu would touch, due to my brother throwing his school bag onto the table where i was working

1200 was the finist grit i could find in nw london, which sucks.

(ps. i like brasso.)
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Unread 02-07-2004, 07:30 PM   #19
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I normally place the AS on the glass, and then rub the block.
Also givving a latest rub for about 20 minutes on plain paper will do wonders.
I now have a new problem.....

If I place my WW on my lapped CPU, it's dry, no addatives.
The CPU sticks to the WW It falls down afer a second of 20, and I did not apply any pressure. It is almost as flat as glass.

If I lap both again with AS5, the cpu won't stick. If I do it again with the paper, sticky again.

It looks like I have it smoother then AS5.

Should I still use it? It seems like the AS5 is bigger then the air gaps I have left..
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Unread 02-07-2004, 09:26 PM   #20
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fhorst : next time i re-design and rebuild my comp (next weekend) i will tell you :P
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Unread 02-08-2004, 05:57 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guandi
fhorst : next time i re-design and rebuild my comp (next weekend) i will tell you :P
As you might have noticed... I'm currently in that phase...
I decided to keep the SL6Z5 P4 2.8 M0 Stepping, and to do some serious CPU lapping.
I can tell you that the Z5 is NOT flat at all! They only come in contact with the cpu block at the edges, and a little in the middle. The edges are about 1/2mm high!
1/2 mm is a lot of space to fill with thermicalpaste!

I needed to start with 600 grid to get it flat, then 1000, 1200, 2000, as3, ceramique. I normally strat with wet, and "finnish" with dry.
Somehow I seem to have misplaced my AS5, so I can't do a finish with that one anymore .
So I finish with plain paper
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Unread 02-09-2004, 07:56 AM   #22
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Default Unlocked AMD ?

Before I install my freshly lapped waterblock, I figured I would unlock my 1800+, after other than the noise thats why I'm doing this ...

Used super glue, let it dry, "carefully" made flat with a knife, painted bridges with silver conductive paint. Damn, my eyesights bad ...

PC boots but no matter what multiplier I choose it says its a 1700+ !!!

I also tried unlocking my 2000+ not as overclockable but what the heck (hey gonna break something, lets do it big styly), it worked fine, though my mobo (a Soltek SL75DRV2) manual seems a bit screwy, the multiplier settings are not whats in the manual. After some guess work, the highest multiplier I can get is 11x (which still falls short of the default 12.5 for a 2000+)

Any ideas ? Have I succesfully unlocked these chips ?
(well obiously not the 1800+ !).

Sorry if this is OT, but I guessed there must be quite a few in here who have done this ...
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Unread 02-09-2004, 09:42 AM   #23
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My mums boyfriend lapped my blocks (does that only sound sick to me!?) but they are quite dull looking. Would it be better if I lapped further till it gets shiny? Do I need anything to make it shiny? Is that a good idea?
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Unread 02-09-2004, 09:53 AM   #24
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Compare your RBX to the pics of mine earlier in the thread.

Which one does it most resemble ?

They are pretty much posted in the order of how much lapping I did. All I used was 1200 grit with warm water and a drop of Fairy (tm).

Tilt your block to catch in the light, you should see fine scratches going in one direction (rather than arcs like when I received my RBX !).

I did notice the more I used a piece of paper the more it "wore" (logically enough), so after lapping 2 blocks, my first bit of 1200 paper was VERY smooth.
Just couldnt find anything finer than 1200.

Keep in mind that some polishes leave a residue as earlier said in this thread, though you might have a really shiny surface the residue causes LESS heat to transer (see Brasso above).

Oh, I tried the Tommy K, and toothpaste, made the kitchen stink, wife found very hilarious and took a photo ! (I dont recommend mixing TK and Toothpaste, yuck).
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Unread 02-09-2004, 01:22 PM   #25
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Um. It's kinda like the second but not so shiny. I think. I dunno, I live with my girlfriend and all the stuff is in my house and I can't remember :| I'll have a look again soon and then let ya know
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