direct die cool a heatspreader

sandman · 04-12-2004, 12:03 AM

I geuss it isn't really direct die, but it was the best word for it I thought.

A few people did this with Athlon XP's, but eventually the water saturated the silicon and shorted the cpu out from the inside. Namely the cache, so they tended to die after a few weeks/months of use. So, people stopped doing it.

But, now that CPU's have heatspreaders, it seems perfect. You could just cut some small grooves on the heatspreader to increase surface area, and you wouldn't have to worry about the water shorting out the cpu because there'd be a peice of copper there.

It's just an idea, but what do you think?

Cptn. Foo Foo · 04-12-2004, 02:32 AM

Depends on how thick the spreader is I guess. Sounds better than direct die.

Maybe it should be called "direct spreader"

jaydee · 04-12-2004, 09:30 AM

We been over this a few times already. The problem is the heat spreader needs a LOT of pressure to make good contact with he CPU Die. The spreader is kind of "floating" on it when a HS/WB is not installed and making poor contact. If you can find a way to put a lot of pressure in the middle of the heat spreader and still come up with a jet impingment style setup then it might work ok. Especially on AMD FX's as there is some serious copper in that IHS.

sandman · 04-12-2004, 10:48 AM

ahh....I see. What would happen if you were to take off the IHS, kind of fil in the area with like Arctic Silver creamique, then glue the heatspreader back on?

I'd think it shouldget decent contact then.

(I'm just throwing out ideas)

j813 · 04-12-2004, 11:04 AM

design & make a block that can specifically address the heatspreader "floating issue". hopefully there's something innovative on the horizon.

MadHacker · 04-12-2004, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandman

A few people did this with Athlon XP's, but eventually the water saturated the silicon and shorted the cpu out from the inside. Namely the cache, so they tended to die after a few weeks/months of use. So, people stopped doing it.

What about putting a thin coating on the die.
Nail pollish? Don't think that would last.. Is there anything that would?
Something that won't break down with water...
Then the die would not get saturated...
Would that work?

UraX · 04-12-2004, 02:22 PM

a sealing to make the water stay in the block and a top of a waterblock+ a mounting device could work, like a swiftech block without the cooper base

Butcher · 04-12-2004, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandman

ahh....I see. What would happen if you were to take off the IHS, kind of fil in the area with like Arctic Silver creamique, then glue the heatspreader back on?

I'd think it shouldget decent contact then.

(I'm just throwing out ideas)

Why not just take the heatspreader off and use a normal block in that case?

jaydee · 04-12-2004, 09:34 PM

It wouldn't be to hard to make it work. Just need a solid pin in the middle to push the IHS down. If I had a CPU with a IHS I would work on it but as of now I don't need nor want any CPU with an IHS.

Pug · 04-19-2004, 06:13 AM

Maybe this is one occasion to think inside the box...

http://www.alsic.com/n1.html

jaydee · 04-19-2004, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pug

Maybe this is one occasion to think inside the box...

http://www.alsic.com/n1.html

Not sure what your point is yet again? :shrug:

Pug · 04-19-2004, 09:44 AM

Did you not notice the pics of something that looked awfully like a liquid cooled IHS?
Maybe I'm misinterpreting but I don't think so.

Quote:

Below is shown an example of the practice of this patent with cooling tubes integrated within a microprocessor lid.

http://www.alsic.com/images/lidcooler.jpg
http://www.alsic.com/images/uslidcooler.JPG

jaydee · 04-19-2004, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pug

Did you not notice the pics of something that looked awfully like a liquid cooled IHS?
Maybe I'm misinterpreting but I don't think so.

http://www.alsic.com/images/lidcooler.jpg
http://www.alsic.com/images/uslidcooler.JPG

*Shruggs*. Doesn't even look like water passage to me. Looks like a hot plate. :shrug: If that is a water passage then I don't see how that would work.

j813 · 04-19-2004, 09:42 PM

What types of Metal are used in these Heatspreaders?
Can it stand-up to the pressure of a jet block, for how long?

bigben2k · 04-19-2004, 09:43 PM

Nickel plated copper. Will take ~30 mph jets without noticeable degradation. (figure is very rough, ask Cathar for details).

snowwie · 04-19-2004, 10:00 PM

well, what about heatspreaders that are epoxied onto the die (intel's prescott and EE northwoods)?

I thought that thermal epoxy needed no clamping force

Jabo · 04-20-2004, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee116

*Shruggs*. Doesn't even look like water passage to me. Looks like a hot plate. :shrug: If that is a water passage then I don't see how that would work.

It would require very strong pump to push coolant trough such a small cross section of a channel. Provided we use such a pump we could have something too look at here. Still traditional (has already became tradittional

? ) jet impingement thin base block is going to be much better solution without a shadow of a doubt!
Multilayer version of this (imagine ~5 of them stacked on top of each other and run in parallel) could be a step in the right direction for mobile water cooling.

Pug · 04-20-2004, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jabo

It would require very strong pump to push coolant trough such a small cross section of a channel. Provided we use such a pump we could have something too look at here. Still traditional (has already became tradittional

? ) jet impingement thin base block is going to be much better solution without a shadow of a doubt!
Multilayer version of this (imagine ~5 of them stacked on top of each other and run in parallel) could be a step in the right direction for mobile water cooling.

Actually, talk is of using the new Cooligy pump with it from what I've heard...

jaydee · 04-20-2004, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jabo

It would require very strong pump to push coolant trough such a small cross section of a channel. Provided we use such a pump we could have something too look at here. Still traditional (has already became tradittional

? ) jet impingement thin base block is going to be much better solution without a shadow of a doubt!
Multilayer version of this (imagine ~5 of them stacked on top of each other and run in parallel) could be a step in the right direction for mobile water cooling.

Or a really slow pump. Either way this design has nothing to do with performance nore is of any use in reality being it hasn't even been proved to work yet. Just a bunch of marketing BS so far. Also that design in the IHS above would nopt work for obvious reasons. Ity would still need a Air cooler on top to make up for the lack of water coverage. Seems to me these jokers don't have any idea what they are doing and trying to make it look like they do for marketing fluff. Looks are not always as they seem though.

|kbn| · 04-20-2004, 09:51 AM

the cpu die conducts doesnt it? would it then be possible to plate it with copper? I dont know how plating works and I wouldnt be suprised if any attemped would damage the core..? the package could be sealed with sillicone/paint/epoxy/other stuff...

Butcher · 04-20-2004, 10:44 AM

The die is made of silicon, which is not a good conductor of heat. I don't think you could directly plate it without imparing chip operation (i.e. creating a massive short).

|kbn| · 04-20-2004, 11:21 AM

I was refering to electrical conduction.
All I know about plating is you use a alkali/acidic? solution and use the core as an electrode to attract the metal from the acid.. I dont think the acid would really damage the core but using it as an electrode probably would unless low voltage/low current was used. Afaik the top of the core conducts which is above the sillicon? so if the core was connected at the top instead of at the pins, then it wouldnt damage the insides, and should work after...
I have a few dead cpus I could experiment with plating them if someone could give me ideas on how it should be done.

Jabo · 04-20-2004, 11:29 AM

If you want to check if plating kills CPUs whats the point of plating dead ones?

deathBOB · 04-20-2004, 02:27 PM

You dont need to chemically plate it, why not just press a thin piece of copper foil into it? Put an extremely small amoutn of AS on it and push it down with some force...

gruntledweasel · 04-20-2004, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathBOB

You dont need to chemically plate it, why not just press a thin piece of copper foil into it? Put an extremely small amoutn of AS on it and push it down with some force...

You just created an extra TIM joint. If going that route, why not just use a waterblock?

04-12-2004, 12:03 AM	#1
sandman Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 50	direct die cool a heatspreader I geuss it isn't really direct die, but it was the best word for it I thought. A few people did this with Athlon XP's, but eventually the water saturated the silicon and shorted the cpu out from the inside. Namely the cache, so they tended to die after a few weeks/months of use. So, people stopped doing it. But, now that CPU's have heatspreaders, it seems perfect. You could just cut some small grooves on the heatspreader to increase surface area, and you wouldn't have to worry about the water shorting out the cpu because there'd be a peice of copper there. It's just an idea, but what do you think?

04-19-2004, 06:13 AM	#10
Pug Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: UK Posts: 80	Maybe this is one occasion to think inside the box... http://www.alsic.com/n1.html __________________ Owner: Wizard Designs :: WizDforums :

04-19-2004, 09:42 PM	#14
j813 Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: southeast asia Posts: 164	What types of Metal are used in these Heatspreaders? Can it stand-up to the pressure of a jet block, for how long? Last edited by j813; 04-19-2004 at 09:44 PM. Reason: added message

04-19-2004, 09:43 PM	#15
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Nickel plated copper. Will take ~30 mph jets without noticeable degradation. (figure is very rough, ask Cathar for details). __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

04-20-2004, 10:44 AM	#21
Butcher Thermophile Join Date: May 2001 Location: UK Posts: 1,064	The die is made of silicon, which is not a good conductor of heat. I don't think you could directly plate it without imparing chip operation (i.e. creating a massive short). __________________ Once upon a time, in a land far far away...

04-12-2004, 02:32 AM	#2
Cptn. Foo Foo Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Posts: 95	Depends on how thick the spreader is I guess. Sounds better than direct die. Maybe it should be called "direct spreader"

04-12-2004, 09:30 AM	#3
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	We been over this a few times already. The problem is the heat spreader needs a LOT of pressure to make good contact with he CPU Die. The spreader is kind of "floating" on it when a HS/WB is not installed and making poor contact. If you can find a way to put a lot of pressure in the middle of the heat spreader and still come up with a jet impingment style setup then it might work ok. Especially on AMD FX's as there is some serious copper in that IHS.

04-12-2004, 10:48 AM	#4
sandman Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 50	ahh....I see. What would happen if you were to take off the IHS, kind of fil in the area with like Arctic Silver creamique, then glue the heatspreader back on? I'd think it shouldget decent contact then. (I'm just throwing out ideas)

04-12-2004, 11:04 AM	#5
j813 Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: southeast asia Posts: 164	design & make a block that can specifically address the heatspreader "floating issue". hopefully there's something innovative on the horizon.

04-12-2004, 09:34 PM	#9
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	It wouldn't be to hard to make it work. Just need a solid pin in the middle to push the IHS down. If I had a CPU with a IHS I would work on it but as of now I don't need nor want any CPU with an IHS.

04-19-2004, 10:00 PM	#16
snowwie Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 154	well, what about heatspreaders that are epoxied onto the die (intel's prescott and EE northwoods)? I thought that thermal epoxy needed no clamping force

04-20-2004, 09:51 AM	#20
\|kbn\| Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: W. Sussex, UK Posts: 329	the cpu die conducts doesnt it? would it then be possible to plate it with copper? I dont know how plating works and I wouldnt be suprised if any attemped would damage the core..? the package could be sealed with sillicone/paint/epoxy/other stuff...

04-20-2004, 11:21 AM	#22
\|kbn\| Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: W. Sussex, UK Posts: 329	I was refering to electrical conduction. All I know about plating is you use a alkali/acidic? solution and use the core as an electrode to attract the metal from the acid.. I dont think the acid would really damage the core but using it as an electrode probably would unless low voltage/low current was used. Afaik the top of the core conducts which is above the sillicon? so if the core was connected at the top instead of at the pins, then it wouldnt damage the insides, and should work after... I have a few dead cpus I could experiment with plating them if someone could give me ideas on how it should be done.

04-20-2004, 11:29 AM	#23
Jabo Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hertfordshire, England Posts: 164	If you want to check if plating kills CPUs whats the point of plating dead ones?

04-20-2004, 02:27 PM	#24
deathBOB Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 60	You dont need to chemically plate it, why not just press a thin piece of copper foil into it? Put an extremely small amoutn of AS on it and push it down with some force...

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