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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 10-08-2004, 02:02 AM   #1
psychofunk
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Default What is your ultimate solution to performance & noise?

Just like the title says, I want to know what your own ultimate solution to the high performance and ultra low noise cooling system is. A laundry list of items if you like or simply some important things to consider. Even ideas on low noise projects you have planned.

I especially would like to hear about the items like what Cather recently brought up, using a 1 inch rad with low power low noise fans. Whatever you can think of. I used to think that I could just get the greatest of everything and put papst fans on it and I would have great performance with low noise but it would seem this thinking is wrong.

Is there anything special with regard to cooling principles. Like is low flow better for low noise. How does going for low noise affect the science in water cooling? Since the Euros seem to be especially interested in quiet does that mean that they have discovered/determined that use of 3/8" or 1/4" ID hose is better when going for low noise? Whatever! Teach/guide/advise me please.

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Unread 10-08-2004, 05:52 AM   #2
Cathar
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Default My "ultimate" low-noise performance kit

First, just to re-iterate my "ideal" radiator specs. I'll call it the WAFO radiator - for "Weak Ass Fan Optimised" radiator. Single-pass, single-row heater-core style radiator. 16mm thick core area. 12 fins-per-inch. 16x16cm core facial area. Shrouded to a 12cm fan (Papst 4412FGL). Shroud is 7.5cm deep from core surface to fan intake.

Fittings/tubing:
1/2" OD fittings
7/16" ID tubing with 3/32" wall thickness

Radiator/fannage:
2 x WAFO radiators
Single Papst 4412FGL fan on each WAFO rad
Rheobus for the fans

Pumpage:
2 x Eheim 1048's in series as the best balance of noise and power and heat. If there's a single DC pump that offers the same sort of PQ curve (an MCP600 pretty much does) but is as quiet as the Eheim 1048's (the MCP600 isn't at all), then use that. i.e. "ultimate" would be the MCP600, but silent. Perhaps the March 893-09 if only I could stop this damn motor's faint tingling sound.

Block(s):
silver Storm/G5 CPU block
"Hydra" GPU block

Am happy to explain my choices in more detail - but am too tired to do so right now.

Last edited by Cathar; 10-08-2004 at 07:41 AM.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 12:29 PM   #3
PieEyedPiper
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wow, yeah that was a late (or early?) posting. I would love to hear more about it. I was getting all excited writing down my xmas list haha, but then i realized I don't have room for all that stuff!
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Unread 10-08-2004, 12:34 PM   #4
Prlwytkovsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
[snip]
Pumpage:
2 x Eheim 1048's in series as the best balance of noise and power and heat. If there's a single DC pump that offers the same sort of PQ curve (an MCP600 pretty much does) but is as quiet as the Eheim 1048's (the MCP600 isn't at all), then use that. i.e. "ultimate" would be the MCP600, but silent. Perhaps the March 893-09 if only I could stop this damn motor's faint tingling sound.
[snip]
Am happy to explain my choices in more detail - but am too tired to do so right now.
How does a single Eheim 1250 compare to two Eheim 1048 in series in generating noise ? Or is the Eheim 1048 simply unbeatable noise wise.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 01:06 PM   #5
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Mostly, the trick is to have the largest radiator possible as it requires less fannage to achieve the same cooling performance. I use the bonneville heatercore with 2 evercool aluminum fans @7v. I have a whitewater block which works great for the money I paid for it. The mag 3 is overall very quiet, but because of the vibration from my crappy aluminum case it seems somewhat louder than it is. When I pick it up and hold it in my hand, it is almost totally silent.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 02:15 PM   #6
Etacovda
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If the 1046 is anything like the 1048, then the 1048 is pretty much silent. I didnt even know the 1046 was on until i picked it up, when i was running a loop with one. I know the 1250 has a definite hum.

Basically as Cathar said - large, low fin density rad is the way to go.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 02:20 PM   #7
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Undervolt a blower, that's my solution. Massive airflow, with very low noise. A bit more work, but ought to well be worth the effort. The bonus is that the frequency of the noise is lower, making it even more tolerable, but everything is subjective...
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Unread 10-08-2004, 02:29 PM   #8
BarryG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigben2k
Undervolt a blower, that's my solution. Massive airflow, with very low noise. A bit more work, but ought to well be worth the effort. The bonus is that the frequency of the noise is lower, making it even more tolerable, but everything is subjective...
Any good suggestions for blowers (manufacturers/models) that would be appropriate for a radiator that would normally accomodate 2x120mm fans?

Thanks!
-Barry
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Unread 10-08-2004, 02:31 PM   #9
BarryG
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Cathar,
For pumps... what about Iwaki? I thought that these pumps were the "nes plus ultra" of silent pumps, am I incorrect?

Thanks,
Barry
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Unread 10-08-2004, 02:39 PM   #10
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Hi Barry!

Some fellow recently posted that he used a dual blower from a Mercedez Benz (he didn't specify the model).

Here's mine, from a Ford Mustang (still installing the darn thing):
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Tellie-R1-13A.jpg (40.8 KB, 107 views)
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Unread 10-08-2004, 02:57 PM   #11
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For fans, I'd like to use heavily undervolted Delta TFB series fans, only if the noise was acceptable (~60 dBa @ 12V!). Would probably need a kick start circuit though. I haven't gotten my hands one one yet, so I can't say whether this is really viable for a low noise solution.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 03:57 PM   #12
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My ideal quiet system:

- Swiftech MC6002 block (it does well with low flow)
- A low-impedance GPU blocks like the Dangerden GPU block (others out there also seem adequate)
- A fanless PSU like the 350W model by Thermaltake
- Hard drives using fluid dynamic bearings
- 1/2" tubing
- 12" by 12" rad of the design that Cathar is proposing
- 12" SLOOOOOW fan such as is used by the room box fans on a variable output switching power supply (to avoid the noise caused by PWM)
- pump would probably be one or two Eheim 1048's, as suggested by Cathar (I've not gone quiet before, preferring MCP650/D4 or Mag3 pumps)

For performance, I'd switch to a MCP650/D4 and use one of Cathar's new spiffy waterblocks (if I could actually acquire one!).


The only parts that aren't easily available are the huge DC fan, and the thin/wide radiator. It would definitely need ducting though.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 04:57 PM   #13
ferdb
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People keep recommending the papst and panaflo 120mm fans but I have had no luck with them. Both my 120mm papst fans and the 3 Panaflo L1A's are not what I would call quiet when undervolted. They vibrate and make a sort of motor boat sound. Even my Sunon's sound better. I have some Panaflo 92's and 80's that are nice and quiet but I have yet to find a decently quiet 120mm x 38mm fan. What are people's hit rates for getting good vs bad 120mm fans amongst the papst and panaflo crowd?
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Unread 10-08-2004, 05:36 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
First, just to re-iterate my "ideal" radiator specs. I'll call it the WAFO radiator - for "Weak Ass Fan Optimised" radiator. Single-pass, single-row heater-core style radiator. 16mm thick core area. 12 fins-per-inch. 16x16cm core facial area. Shrouded to a 12cm fan (Papst 4412FGL). Shroud is 7.5cm deep from core surface to fan inta.
Why 12 FPI and not 30 FP! ?



Last edited by Les; 10-08-2004 at 05:42 PM.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 05:38 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les
Why 12 FPI and not 30 FP! ?

weak fan????
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Unread 10-08-2004, 05:47 PM   #16
psychofunk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Block(s):
silver Storm/G5 CPU block
"Hydra" GPU block
Don't mind if I do, I'll take one of each

Seriously though I have a list of cores with links to pics that I want to pick your brain about, but I have to get home first so that will be a couple more hours.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 05:50 PM   #17
Les
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenman100
weak fan????
Look at the thermal limitations.
Presented in above graphs

They may not be correct , but anyone got better?
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Unread 10-08-2004, 06:54 PM   #18
greenman100
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look at the weakest fan

it is apparent less fins = better cooling, unless fan is super strong
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Unread 10-08-2004, 07:00 PM   #19
Les
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenman100
look at the weakest fan

it is apparent less fins = better cooling, unless fan is super strong
No
Look again
These are only theoretical graphs - but



Last edited by Les; 10-08-2004 at 07:36 PM.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 07:46 PM   #20
JWFokker
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I'll have to look into blowers for my transmission cooler that should be arriving soon.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 09:05 PM   #21
Cathar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les
Why 12 FPI and not 30 FP! ?
Because I believe that the air-flow pressure drop with 30fpi is quite a deal higher than you've calculated...have a 24fpi rad here and it does choke air-flow quite subtantially. Am achieving better air-flow/performance with weak fans on the 14fpi rad than with the 2 x 24fpi rads. Other critical dimensions are within 10% of eath other.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 09:33 PM   #22
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It seems like Les's model actually slightly overestimates resistance if you look at Bill's data compared to the model.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 10:04 PM   #23
psychofunk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Because I believe that the air-flow pressure drop with 30fpi is quite a deal higher than you've calculated...have a 24fpi rad here and it does choke air-flow quite subtantially. Am achieving better air-flow/performance with weak fans on the 14fpi rad than with the 2 x 24fpi rads. Other critical dimensions are within 10% of eath other.
After lots and lots of searching, and seeing that prices for what I wanted ran pretty high, I had decided that I would go for the Black Ice Pro 3 ($105) and call it a day. But I did not realize that the BIP3 was a 24FPI. Assuming both rads are 1" thick max, how much of a temp diff is there from 24 to 14? Also how much cooling area do I need assuming a full loop like you described above as well as a submerged pump and a hardcore oc? Below are the heatercores I have been considering but again they don't look WAFO, but I figure if maybe one is 18 or 16 FPI it would be better then 24, but in the end I may be stuck with a best of 24FPI.

http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/2-763.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/2-681.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/94771.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/94496.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/94495.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/94483.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/94764.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/2-735.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/2-726.htm

I am liking the last one (2-726) best as it is single pass but it is pricey. Could I get away with one or would I need two and assuming it too was 24FPI would I still be better off with a BIP3?
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Unread 10-08-2004, 10:08 PM   #24
Cathar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
It seems like Les's model actually slightly overestimates resistance if you look at Bill's data compared to the model.
Hard to say - quite a number of subtle differences between different cores. I'm just going by what I've experienced. I also believe that the water-air heat transfer efficiency at 12FPI is a little better than calculated by Kryotherm at low air-flow rates, again based upon practical use. I suspect that this may be due to the fine cut-rippling that heater-core fins have.

My thoughts are more empirically based, and I just have a very confident feeling that 12FPI with weak low volume fans works out substantially better than calculated, and that when coupled with the air-flow resistance it just makes more sense for very low-flow/pressure fans.
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Unread 10-09-2004, 12:29 AM   #25
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Les' sim makes the 29mm cores look good. Cathar or Bill, would you care to comment from practical experience?
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