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Water Block Design / Construction Building your own block? Need info on designing one? Heres where to do it

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Unread 11-05-2004, 04:00 PM   #1
kryptyk666
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Default is there something i am missing??

ive been lurking around the forums for some time now, and it seems to me that the general consenus amongst the most knowledgeable here, is that the majority of mass produced waterblocks on the market are mediocre at best, both in quality and performance.

now this isnt a big deal, because like they say, "if you want something done right, do it yourself." and that is just what a lot of people do; they sit down and design well built, very high performing blocks.

but what about those of us that lack the time, finances, resources, or general knowledge to build our own water blocks? are we at the mercy of the corporate market which has been relegated to nothing more then an insitiution of producing quantity at the cost of quality?

i know that there is more than a wealth of information avialable on these forums and others like it, and i have learned more than i had ever expected from reading these forums, but the knowledge only goes so far when you are not able to apply it in a beneficial manner.

perhaps there is something that i am missing, but it seems to me that people that are unable to build their own blocks are stuck having to settle for moderate (at best ) performance from the large companies that do not feel it is "cost effective" to mass produce some of the more effecient, performance oriented designs.

im curious about everyone else's thoughts on this matter. its possible that i am reading waaaay too much into all of this, but it seems to me that there are not many options for people that lack access to the resources to build their own blocks. i welcome your comments.

-KRyPTyK
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Unread 11-05-2004, 04:12 PM   #2
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Actually, some of the commercial products will run quite well. Example: Swiftech, DangerDen, ... to name a few.

But it's always possible to extract more performance, hence the Cascade and Storm blocks. JayDee116 has a site running for fellow block makers: customcooledpc.com .

The simplest DIY block to make is the #Rotor block.
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Unread 11-05-2004, 04:40 PM   #3
BillA
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http://www.procooling.com/html/pro_testing.php
look at the wbs that can be purchased, and also at their respective cost

#1 DD and Swiftech are not equal (the Dtek WW would have been a more appropriate comparison)
#2 the G4 is clearly better, but there are reasons why such a design may not be suitable for the 'mass market'
#3 a DIY wb WILL be inferior to the MCW6000 (anyone who thinks not, send your wb to pH), despite what is said by wannabes

in short your entire premise is flawed, the best wbs are made by one individual in limited quantities at almost twice the price of the 2ed best wb which has lower maintenance and pump requirements

does not seem too complicated to me
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Unread 11-05-2004, 04:47 PM   #4
kryptyk666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
in short your entire premise is flawed, the best wbs are made by one individual in limited quantities at almost twice the price of the 2ed best wb which has lower maintenance and pump requirements

does not seem too complicated to me
that is exactly my point. the best performing blocks are made by individuals, and are not readily available to the general public. for those of us that are unable to make our own high performance blocks, for whatever reasons, we are left with few options.

personally, i would love to try my hand at making my own waterblock, but as a single father of an autisitc child, i lack both the time and funds to do it. so what is the other option? sacrifice performance and buy a mass manufactured block???
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Unread 11-05-2004, 04:59 PM   #5
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what makes you think that you could make a wb to equal the G4 ?
or the MCW6000 ?

no one else seems to be able to do so either as a company or an individual
(the European wbs still being something of an unknown at this moment)
be candid; you lack not only the 'time', but more significantly the expertise as well

the difference is ~ 1°C (depending)
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Unread 11-05-2004, 05:18 PM   #6
kryptyk666
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a very valid point BillA..... i gues that i wasnt aware that there were such high performing blocks out there such as the MCW6000. i knew they performed well, just not nearly as well as they do. the comparison chart in the previous post cleared alot of that up.

all in all, i am guilty of failing to fully research what was available before trying to make my argument. i stand corrected. thanks for the input BillA.

-KRyPTyK
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Unread 11-05-2004, 05:26 PM   #7
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Bill, the latest blocks I have made are probably worth saying they pin the quality right on the noze, performance isnt completely known because I am lacking a completed testing setup and pH doesn't seem to want to test my blocks without showing pictures of the internals. If you can convince him otherwize, I am more than happy to send a couple peices his way.

-edit- The insides would get exposed sometime or another if I was to sell them, but in order for me to even go there I gotta know where they stand. After I decide to do that, I wouldn't care whats out there for pictures of the block.

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Unread 11-05-2004, 05:30 PM   #8
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did you not notice pH taking a can opener to the 6000 ?
expect the same

A-B testing can pretty easily differentiate - though not quantify
post your numbers
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Unread 11-05-2004, 06:18 PM   #9
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lol, yeah I saw what he did to it, not like its hard to take off the 4 screws and pop it open I told him what I wanted and offered him some machining services.

Right now all I have set up is a c-systems pump, 80mm swiftech rad and 1/4" ID tubing and with all that said, My block performs 6 degrees better than the maze4 The fan was only pushing about 30cfm quietly. 24v delta 80cfm on 7v

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Unread 11-05-2004, 06:46 PM   #10
BillA
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the cover is soldered

+6°C (C not F, eh?) below the Maze4 puts you 1.5 to 2°C better than the G4 at 0.75gpm
or 0.5°C better than the MCW6000 at 0.5gpm
possible, but not likely
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Unread 11-05-2004, 06:52 PM   #11
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Bill, this is on what I tested on, athlon 900mhz and thats °C And this is cpu over air temp so radiator is into this mess if it makes a difference. Like I said I dont have a decent testing bed.

My block is based on a little bit different design than most others, I have seen similar in part of the concept, and the internal structure is quite different.

Jon
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Unread 11-05-2004, 06:57 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
in short your entire premise is flawed, the best wbs are made by one individual in limited quantities at almost twice the price of the 2ed best wb which has lower maintenance and pump requirements

does not seem too complicated to me


Given the weakest commonly used pump, the Eheim 1046, we're talking about 2.7LPM vs 3.3LPM. G4 starts off in front at this point and stretches the lead from there.

While I will agree with respect to finely structured blocks demanding clean water on install and efforts to keep it that way, which is as simple as not having the water exposed to the open air, I do not agree to the lower pump requirements comment unless we're talking about some forced low-flow scenarios, such as with 8mm tubing on everything and 3 or 4 blocks in the loop.

Just nit-picking though.

I do agree though that designing and building such high-end waterblocks, whether we're talking about the Storm or MCW blocks, it is rapidly moving further and further out of the reach of the DIY person unless they both have an extremely good understanding of what it is that they are attempting and, for making one-offs, a lot of patience with the machining time and access to not-so-cheap tools.

The days of a DIY'er whipping up a top-end block in the house shed with a drill-press, a dremel, and a couple of other backyard tools is long gone.
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Unread 11-05-2004, 06:59 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
the cover is soldered

+6°C (C not F, eh?) below the Maze4 puts you 1.5 to 2°C better than the G4 at 0.75gpm
or 0.5°C better than the MCW6000 at 0.5gpm
possible, but not likely
One way to find out. Send it to Pheastus... He won't chop it open if it's your one-off baby.
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Unread 11-05-2004, 07:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
#3 a DIY wb WILL be inferior to the MCW6000 (anyone who thinks not, send your wb to pH), despite what is said by wannabes
I sent a couple blocks to pH and not even close to my best blocks at that.... I can beat your MCW6000(A) and probably already have. I was waiting for some more DIY blocks to challenge my existing one's before I sent them to pH though.

The two I made in the graph are not even close to tweaked for performance yet they are pretty close to your as it....
Attached Images
File Type: jpg compare2.jpg (88.9 KB, 25 views)
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Unread 11-05-2004, 07:22 PM   #15
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/sets up deck chair + opens popcorn & beer
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Hypocritical Signature I tried to delete: Procooling: where scientific principles are ignored because big corporations are immune to mistakes and oversights.
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Unread 11-05-2004, 07:23 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar

I do agree though that designing and building such high-end waterblocks, whether we're talking about the Storm or MCW blocks, it is rapidly moving further and further out of the reach of the DIY person unless they both have an extremely good understanding of what it is that they are attempting and, for making one-offs, a lot of patience with the machining time and access to not-so-cheap tools.

The days of a DIY'er whipping up a top-end block in the house shed with a drill-press, a dremel, and a couple of other backyard tools is long gone.
It just comes down to desire to do it. I don't think most people water cool let alone care to design and make a block. The one't that want to make a block seem to not grasp the basics of what makes a block work. There is more to it than just making pins in pretty pattern.
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Unread 11-05-2004, 07:24 PM   #17
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so you're holding out on us jd ?
sending pH ringers, tsk tsk
get it on guy

focus on the 6000, the 6002 is not better
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Unread 11-05-2004, 07:31 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
so you're holding out on us jd ?
sending pH ringers, tsk tsk
get it on guy

focus on the 6000, the 6002 is not better
Yep, bring it on indeed.

I, for one, am continually humbled at how 1C differences on my testbed always seems to translate to 0.4C differences on Phaestus's testbed.

If you reckon you're sure you have a design that can beat the Swifty's or the Storm blocks, better make sure that your design is showing up with an improvement to be 3x better than what you normally would think would be enough to rein in the difference on your own testbed. Phaestus's testbed is incredibly unforgiving.
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Unread 11-05-2004, 07:34 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
so you're holding out on us jd ?
sending pH ringers, tsk tsk
get it on guy

focus on the 6000, the 6002 is not better
I am pretty certain I know what makes the 6000 better than the 6002. That feature could be adapted to either of the blocks I sent to pH to boost performance somewhat (note there is no center inlet in either of those blocks). But I also got 2 other blocks with completely different designs 1/2 milled. I was working on them when the mill broke. Parts for the mill and more tooling are ordered though.

I do agree with your statment about DIY blocks though. I find it unlikely the average DIY'er could match the MCW6000 series blocks let alone beat it. I maybe full of myself but I think I am a level or two above the average DIY'er.
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Unread 11-05-2004, 07:36 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Yep, bring it on indeed.

I, for one, am continually humbled at how 1C differences on my testbed always seems to translate to 0.4C differences on Phaestus's testbed.

If you reckon you're sure you have a design that can beat the Swifty's or the Storm blocks, better make sure that your design is showing up with an improvement to be 3x better than what you normally would think would be enough to rein in the difference on your own testbed. Phaestus's testbed is incredibly unforgiving.
Can't beat the storm. Can beat the MCW6000 though. Fear not pH will get the blocks when I can finish them. I will also tweak the Lumpy Channel block and the Type-R for better performance. I belive either of those two can match the MCW6000. My other blocks are a level above those.
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Unread 11-05-2004, 07:37 PM   #21
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jd, both you and Rotor could have developed first rate wbs
- but it takes one hellofalot of effort to do so, prototyping and testing

as the Cooling God said, bring it on
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Unread 11-05-2004, 07:48 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
jd, both you and Rotor could have developed first rate wbs
- but it takes one hellofalot of effort to do so, prototyping and testing

as the Cooling God said, bring it on
I hope not to disappoint. If all goes well and my parts arrive before Thanksgiving I will have 4 days of nothing but mill time to finish these blocks during Thanksgiving. I will then test them the best I can and decide if they are fit to send to pH. Hope to have them to him by the end of the year. I got everything coded (I hope) so all I need is material, tooling, and replacement mill parts. All on order.

Last edited by jaydee116; 11-05-2004 at 08:39 PM. Reason: piss poor spelling
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Unread 11-05-2004, 08:24 PM   #23
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Like I said, I dont have a problem with him opening it, I just have a problem of him posting my goods on the internet or showing anyone else at the moment untill I decide on what to do with the design.

Cathar, I have the ability to make another one of these in about 2 hours, otherwize it would take about an hour a peice depending on how many I do, and this is on my machine. I work in a rather large machine shop that I would have no problem putting these in production if it became necessary

Jon
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Unread 11-05-2004, 08:49 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etacovda
/sets up deck chair + opens popcorn & beer
Hey, your the one I thought was going to pose a challenge to my blocks? :shrug:
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Unread 11-05-2004, 08:52 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFettig
Like I said, I dont have a problem with him opening it, I just have a problem of him posting my goods on the internet or showing anyone else at the moment untill I decide on what to do with the design.
I trusted Phaestus not to divulge the Storm block until I was ready to do so, and he did just that. He tested an early prototype for me nearly 3 months before the Storm block was properly revealed.

Derek/Phaestus is someone you can trust if disclosure is a problem for you prior to the block's formal release. The MCW6000 that he tested was already a released block - which I believe explains his attitude towards opening and revealing it.

If you are thinking of going commercial, I believe it would be a good idea to at least get an independent assessment of the design's performance. Even if you're not going to go commercial, better to know what it's performance is when independently assessed by a good testbed so you have can some weight behind your claims, otherwise it's just your word against people's inherent skepticism. When you're throwing around claims as impressive sounding as you're describing above, it'd surely be nice to know that private reality matches public reality.

Last edited by Cathar; 11-05-2004 at 09:01 PM.
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