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Testing and Benchmarking Discuss, design, and debate ways to evaluate the performace of he goods out there.

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Unread 11-02-2005, 06:26 PM   #101
bobo5195
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I'll have a reread of that book (its 1000 pages long) i could of mis read and such.

The dt from wcooling rads is exceptionally low this effects things alot. I have a feeling that i might be wrong about this eff thing but i will have a look.

Some more extrapolation form bills results maybe need as energy disipated looks low and results need to be filled. I could of made an algerbra error as my maths as gone cack.
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Unread 11-03-2005, 02:12 AM   #102
Les
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Maybe can be rationalised if consider airflow's Velocity rather than Volume rate
Possibly a universal graph for Effectiveness vs Velocity can be produced
Attached revamped Post 58 Graph2&3 (m/s=(1.22 >>1.3)xm^3/min)
Very unsure whether is universal as regards radiator area and volume.
Car Radiator zone is that investigated by Delphi
Possibly,with quieter engine development(dunno whether electric vehicles have a rad), the car radiator industry will further enter the PC zone

Dunno how realistic Zones are.
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File Type: jpg Monash15.jpg (75.0 KB, 7 views)

Last edited by Les; 11-03-2005 at 07:02 AM.
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Unread 11-03-2005, 07:09 AM   #103
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That could well be the case.

A large differential between Cair and Cwater is going to result in very high design efficantcies i suppose. Anyway it kind kills using eff as a number, perhaps this is what delphi was talking about in their paper.
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Unread 11-03-2005, 07:16 AM   #104
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Or perhaps,unfortunately,opens the way for its abuse by the unscrupulous
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Unread 11-07-2005, 03:39 AM   #105
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Deleted
Or have I screwed-up,Bobo?

Edit: Deleted = think have screwed-up.
Will rethink

Last edited by Les; 11-07-2005 at 04:05 AM.
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Unread 11-07-2005, 05:28 AM   #106
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ur alright just ive got alot work on (Mckinsey interviews n stuff) so cant post alot goign to have a read of the heat exchanger book on the train.
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Unread 11-07-2005, 08:33 AM   #107
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Bobo
Deleted contained big boob and has lost its attraction.
Was suggestions re
"
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobo5195
A large differential between Cair and Cwater is going to result in very high design efficantcies i suppose. .
Dunno, but may also lead to a variation in SD(W/C, 1/"C/W") with Water(in)-Air(in) Temperature differential larger than both Delphi's 1% and our acceptable(?) 10%(?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
Les
I had data sets showing 1% (and less) differences, but |absolute| accuracy at this level is questionable - though the results were repeatable
"

Deboobed amounts to little more than specimen 4 Temperatures(Tai,Tao,Tci,Tco) checks at Low((say 20cfm(0.57m^3/min)) and High ((say,130cfm(3.68m^3/min)) fan ratings with Low(1lpm) and High(10lpm) coolant flowrates.
Thoughts are welcome Bobo.
However has lost its attraction due to complexity.

The Crunch is that any verification efforts would be solely Bill's toil
How difficult would be it be experimentally, Bill?"
Why should the onus always fall on Bill, all?

Last edited by Les; 11-07-2005 at 08:39 AM.
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Unread 11-07-2005, 10:01 AM   #108
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worms for breakfast
the test is to determine the correction factor for the hydraulic resistance of the cross plus 6" of tubing used for the instrument and DUT connections
for the test shown the coolant and the ambient were held as close as possible (0.3 to 0.45°)

the connection correction for pressure drop is typical,
the flow effect is puzzling

to preclude some of the obvious; 1/3 DIN RTDs individually/simultaneously caled with their inst using a quartz ref thermometer and a bath (bath thermal pattern cked)

am rerunning for more accuracy, then will reverse to ck
will try a larger tee to drop the velocity around the RTD tip
??

EDIT
units should be lpm in temp 'corr' graph
Attached Images
File Type: gif temp - flow corr.gif (11.5 KB, 14 views)
File Type: gif conn corr.gif (12.8 KB, 9 views)

Last edited by BillA; 11-07-2005 at 10:06 AM. Reason: graph axis units mislabeled
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Unread 11-07-2005, 10:16 AM   #109
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Quote:
Why should the onus always fall on Bill, all?
Consistency?
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Unread 11-07-2005, 10:30 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marci
Consistency?
hey !
didn't I just get shelled for my lack of objectivity ?
bench moving along Marci, debugging is a pain, building confidence longer
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Unread 11-07-2005, 11:27 AM   #111
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Quote:
hey! didn't I just get shelled for my lack of objectivity ?
Not by me...

if frame of reference is continually to be the original ThermoChill data, then logic states (to me) testing of further theories in line with that is all done by the same person that produced the original data if only for consistency purposes (assuming current testrig results can be compared satisfactorily to the test rig used originally)... others then need to test to confirm methodology across other platforms / testrigs...
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Unread 11-07-2005, 12:34 PM   #112
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Cos Bill can be arsed?

Bill what exactly are you saying? Some nice scribbles would be good.
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Unread 11-07-2005, 12:56 PM   #113
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post #108
saying that I'm measuring a delta T related to flow, w/o dissipation (independent of amb/ext temp)
the delta T is negative; and while I have a passing notion about frictional heating and pressure drop, am stumped explaining a 'substantial' temp drop
- this is an experimental issue I suspect
??
more scribbles re your question ?
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Unread 11-07-2005, 01:21 PM   #114
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I mean a scribble of your appartus so i can see what it is happening to. Paint doodles will do. 108 is a very les style post cant see exactly what you are talking about.

Is it a well insulted setup? As the tubing could be cooling stuff down.
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Unread 11-07-2005, 01:24 PM   #115
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Would go along with "experimental issue". turn a blind eye and wait for someone else to resolve.
Unfortunately there is no-one else and you have to resolve.
Have you tried prayer or incantations?

Ignore below Had wrong picture,rectified by Post 116
Know nothing, but thinking along lines of flattening of T gradient across section with ^ Reynolds.

Last edited by Les; 11-07-2005 at 01:49 PM.
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Unread 11-07-2005, 01:38 PM   #116
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insulated ? the DUT is in a environmental chamber, in this case set to the 'same' temp as the coolant
the DUT is 6" of 3/8"ID silicone tubing having a cross connected to each end, for both crosses one branch is for a 1/4" RTD and the other a pressure tap
- the pressure drop across this DUT will equal the 'connection pressure drop' which is subtracted from the gross readings of other devices
- likewise the strange temperature drop measurements
but I think not, some other issue - not new physics
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Unread 11-07-2005, 03:37 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
post #108
and while I have a passing notion about frictional heating and pressure drop, am stumped explaining a 'substantial' temp drop
- this is an experimental issue I suspect
Think should keep passing "notion about frictional heating "
Appears negligible (attachment)

Rather mystified with your pressure drop units.
mA=milli-atmospheres?
Taken as such and equated roughly as millibar.
But does not matter
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Test1.jpg (35.0 KB, 11 views)
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Unread 11-07-2005, 04:52 PM   #118
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the dP xmtrs have a 4 - 20mA output over their span range
y (in.H2O) = 31.25x-125

larger tees to be tested now
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Unread 11-07-2005, 05:41 PM   #119
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Corrected graphs
dT still small

Larger Ts
Could always give worse results - if related to flattening of T gradient across section with ^ Reynolds

Edit3: 3rd time lucky with attachment(I hope)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Test1.jpg (37.0 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg Test2.jpg (20.0 KB, 8 views)

Last edited by Les; 11-09-2005 at 12:15 AM.
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Unread 11-10-2005, 01:38 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
Les
I had data sets showing 1% (and less) differences, but |absolute| accuracy at this level is questionable - though the results were repeatable

should we attempt to list 'effects' considered 'too small' to justify climbing through our ear backwards ?
Am still climbing

Edit: Some words.
Think:
1) True SD varies as broached in Post 71 (probably small)
2)Delphi are observing difference between "Inferred" and Characteristic" but inappropriately(GIGO) analyzing using a CFD version of Post 71 .
3) "True SD", "Inferred SD" and "Characteristic SD" can all be used to describe radiator(If can calculate then are a properties).
4) Think approach of increasing "Set Temperature Differential" with decreasing SD(adopted by Bill for Swiftech's 80mm QP rads), is theoretically sound as well as experimentally sound .
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Test3.jpg (29.3 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg Test4.jpg (28.5 KB, 8 views)

Last edited by Les; 11-10-2005 at 03:43 AM.
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Unread 11-10-2005, 09:59 AM   #121
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some data tomorrow ?
lots of compression, and an offset, not addressed in all past data (so sorry)
a shame I cannot/will not talk with Stephen as he has the only other test bench

and how can I help a co that is stiffing me for $60k in past due wages ?
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Unread 11-10-2005, 03:40 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
and how can I help a co that is stiffing me for $60k in past due wages ?
Depends if they're stiffing you for greed or stiffing you out of need. If the latter, helping them may be the best way to get to your $60k....
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Unread 11-11-2005, 04:44 PM   #123
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Possibly the onus is on zytrahus to lurk here
Maybe inherent in his job description
Data today ?
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Unread 11-11-2005, 08:49 PM   #124
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having promised some data, . . . .
here is some describing the search for reality in calibrating a new test bench with commercial equipment, as contrasted with Incoherent rolling his own

For temps I started with some Keithley and Fluke RTD thermometers with 0.01C resolution, to which I added some ¼” 1/3 DIN B tol 4-wire sensors. Sent it off to the cal shop and got them back with nice certs, which did not seem to jive too well with my comparisons. So I accepted the thermometers as being ‘in spec’ per the certs, but would have to recal for more accuracy using a Haake A82 recirculating chiller with a HP 2804A quartz thermometer with 2 probes. The bath was ‘mapped’ and the probes then caled and cross checked, with the results shown in the RTD cal graph.

(Thanks for the help Les)
essential to this activity is the mapping of the bath at higher resolution, and the consistency

The next task was to quantify the head loss of the instrumentation fittings and the connecting tubing to the DUT. The crosses are (now) as shown in the photo, but were connected together for testing with a single piece of tubing. Using the 823DP data, a head loss curve was developed, but a temperature anomaly was noted; there was an ‘apparent’ temperature drop across 6” of tubing with no temperature difference between the coolant and ambient.

The connection temperature offset graph shows several crosses tested several ways, and my first inclination (and action, alas) was to use the Series 5 data as an offset of 0.054°C; more reflection suggests that the Series 4 equation is a better description.

temp related stuff is delayed ‘till I redo the spreadsheets, etc.

the cross head loss is as shown, but will be redone at a higher flow resolution of 0.001gpm.

so at the moment all I have is a head loss curve for the CoolingWorks CoolRad-12T

more later
BTW, "C" will be coolant inlet less air inlet
Attached Images
File Type: gif RTD cal.gif (25.4 KB, 14 views)
File Type: gif 823dp cal.gif (9.6 KB, 7 views)
File Type: gif old conn corr.gif (13.8 KB, 8 views)
File Type: gif conn temp offset.gif (17.2 KB, 12 views)
File Type: gif conn press offset.gif (13.6 KB, 11 views)
File Type: gif 12T pd vs fr.gif (13.4 KB, 10 views)
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Unread 11-11-2005, 09:17 PM   #125
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ah my head is going to hurt again.
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