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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 11-24-2005, 01:40 PM   #301
Eddy_EK
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Great post Orkan.

The tool was not fully sharp, anyway I think that it was not made with mill because it would take too long.

Did you take any measures of pins and channels?
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Unread 11-24-2005, 02:40 PM   #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
well,
Cathar said the results were due to a flawed test methodology
and I said the methodology was fine and the Swiftech results 'good' data (quite reproducible) but not (apparently ?) intelligible - missing a correlation permitting these numbers to be compared to others
Bill, I NEVER said that the testing methodology was flawed.

I said that the testbed (TTV) was.

Can have the world's best sculpter. You can give him a blunt tool, but don't expect miracles, that's all I'm saying.
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Unread 11-24-2005, 02:45 PM   #303
Orkan
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Approx Pin array dimensions -

34mm x 34mm
1mm channel between the pins.
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Unread 11-25-2005, 04:32 AM   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
we have multiple subjects going on (I think ? lol)

if the IHS is loose it solves the wear/maint issue (by replacement)
if the IHS is the die top then there is a problem that may preclude progress

how will one 'know' that the die is flat ?

in ANY case, how is the IHS edge to be supported ?
is the mechanical issue understood ?
put this heat die into a BTX mounting frame

About the HS mechanical issue, could it be practical and efficient to use a IHS like this one below and then to secure it in place using the same kind of lever system that Intel has for the socket 775?


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Unread 11-25-2005, 07:12 AM   #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboTech
. The temperature probe is mounted into a tiny hole drilled into the bottom of the copper heat spreader and is potted with thermal epoxy. The temp probe lead wires exit thru a hole drilled up thru the center of the heat die. This places the temp probe ~0.5mm from the top surface and eliminates the variability’s caused by the TIM joint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
...would set the sensors differently ...

Lee, I like this arrangement for many reasons but there is one problem with the vertical hole for the temperature sensor that I think is insurmountable.

Basically it means that there is a large uncertainty in the vertical location of the point that is measured which makes it impossible to use the data for any kind of modelling. The vertical shaft will have a different temperature gradient than the copper around it and the position of the sensor is uncertain.
Compare this to a horizontal hole. The gradient (in the vertical direction ) is the same as the surrounding copper, the measured temperature is some kind of average of the temperature of the hole surfaces and does not vary by more than a tiny amount along the length of the hole. In the case of the vertical shaft the same applies, namely that the measured temperature is some kind of average of the shaft surfaces, except that the temperature is varying hugely along these surfaces and a small "position error" would have a large impact on the measured temperature.

Edit: I have drawn something to try and explain explain this, I believe it is very important that you don't do this. The holes should be horizontal. Always. Their effects (heat shadowing) can be modelled, the effects in a vertical shaft can't.
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File Type: gif tc_errors_from_pos.gif (16.4 KB, 17 views)

Last edited by Incoherent; 11-25-2005 at 07:32 AM.
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Unread 11-25-2005, 08:11 AM   #306
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even with the horizontal locating is a bit of a question mechanically
- I guess the 'effective' location could be back calculated with some accuracy

and, as has been discussed here before, need to quantify the clamping force (with load cells ?)
load cells will reveal mounting hardware issues clearly and provide repeatability

more and more sophisticated, how many still in ?
(not to be negative, but these inevitably become so complex than none continue)
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Unread 11-25-2005, 08:21 AM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag
About the HS mechanical issue, could it be practical and efficient to use a IHS like this one below and then to secure it in place using the same kind of lever system that Intel has for the socket 775?


if those are solder tabs that may be a TTV, all TTVs are mounted in their respective sockets
since the CPU/socket/mobo will have to be replicated (as part of the source) to mount a sink or wb that locates off the mobo, there is a lot of hardware involved;
other systems let the mobo float between the chassis and the sink,
and it will be a brand new exercise for BTX
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Unread 11-25-2005, 10:20 AM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy_EK
Great post Orkan.

The tool was not fully sharp, anyway I think that it was not made with mill because it would take too long.

Did you take any measures of pins and channels?
It is CNC milled.
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Unread 11-25-2005, 10:26 AM   #309
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You'd think it would be sawed... but it looked milled to me.
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Unread 11-25-2005, 11:06 AM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incoherent
Lee, I like this arrangement for many reasons but there is one problem with the vertical hole for the temperature sensor that I think is insurmountable.

Basically it means that there is a large uncertainty in the vertical location of the point that is measured which makes it impossible to use the data for any kind of modelling.
Thanks Incoherent,

Yes, I agree with what you are saying. I did a quick calc and for a 14mm^2 cross-area with 100W load thru copper, I get ~1.3 deg C per mm... not so good.

"Today" I am leaning towards a one-piece heat die and heatspreader with two or three temp sensors located in the sides of the die to generate a heat flux curve and that use an extrapolated temp value for calculating the WB dT and C/W. I also like the idea of a rectangular die (maybe 14 x 16mm?) since that seems to be the direction more of the newer CPU's are going in. (I know, much controversey there... )

Bill: Yes, I have considered integrating a load cell underneath the die and creating the upwards force by regulating the air pressure to a small cylinder instead of a spring. Considered "clamping" the WB under test and then pushing the die/heat spreader up with a known force. This is great for analytical testing but removes the variability of specific mounting hardware that the end user will have to deal with. As you said though, complexity often leads to no action...
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Unread 11-25-2005, 11:14 AM   #311
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Quote:
I have considered integrating a load cell underneath the die and creating the upwards force by regulating the air pressure to a small cylinder instead of a spring.
knew there'd be a proper name for what was going thru my mind... *makes a note of Load Cell*
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Unread 11-25-2005, 11:37 AM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incoherent
Lee, I like this arrangement for many reasons but there is one problem with the vertical hole for the temperature sensor that I think is insurmountable.

Basically it means that there is a large uncertainty in the vertical location of the point that is measured which makes it impossible to use the data for any kind of modelling. The vertical shaft will have a different temperature gradient than the copper around it and the position of the sensor is uncertain.
Compare this to a horizontal hole. The gradient (in the vertical direction ) is the same as the surrounding copper, the measured temperature is some kind of average of the temperature of the hole surfaces and does not vary by more than a tiny amount along the length of the hole. In the case of the vertical shaft the same applies, namely that the measured temperature is some kind of average of the shaft surfaces, except that the temperature is varying hugely along these surfaces and a small "position error" would have a large impact on the measured temperature.

Edit: I have drawn something to try and explain explain this, I believe it is very important that you don't do this. The holes should be horizontal. Always. Their effects (heat shadowing) can be modelled, the effects in a vertical shaft can't.

hmm - just a (lateral) thought, but could you overcome this by using a spring to push upwards on the sensor in the vertical hole?
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Unread 11-25-2005, 12:51 PM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboTech
+ Heat die is spring-loaded to insure good contact pressure at all times
There's a spring variant known as a constant force spring. It's a tightly wrapped band of spring steel that has a known load force, which varies very little over its active range because it has a very small spring constant and a very large range (most of which is not active).

I haven't seen a constant force spring that's designed for compression, only tension, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. You might be able to rig some kind of crazy lever system to get compression. I'd go that route before looking at using pneumatics.
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Unread 11-25-2005, 02:28 PM   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldenton
hmm - just a (lateral) thought, but could you overcome this by using a spring to push upwards on the sensor in the vertical hole?
I don't think so. The problem isn't so much the sensor position itself, it's the position of the focus of measurement. Hard concept to get across, but in a vertical shaft you are measuring the temperature of the air (or whatever it is filled with) in the hole as well as the surrounding copper. The point within the sensor that the temperature reading represents is in an unknown location but in a horizontal hole it will be more sure that it is halfway between the top and the bottom of the horizontal hole (in terms of gradient) with the conditions in the Axis of interest (vertical) being the same, as opposed to the vertical one where the conditions up and down are totally different (copper one side, air (or whatever) on the other).


It is one of my concerns with the TTV which experiences a similar effect, but they are mitigated somewhat by a very concise description on how to affix the TC to ensure a good contact and thus ensure that the temperature measured is in fact the temperature at the point expected. I am reasonably happy with the TTV concept, although it is not the way I would have done it. In working with Intel I have found that they generally know what they are doing.
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Unread 11-25-2005, 02:38 PM   #315
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Is it just me.. or are many online retail stores not selling the Storm any more? And at the same time, the price seems to have increased.

This leads me to the conjecture that Swiftech is end of lifing the Storm.
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Unread 11-25-2005, 06:21 PM   #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowing
This leads me to the conjecture that Swiftech is end of lifing the Storm.
Kinda goes without saying doesn't it? They replaced the storm in all their apex kits. Their intentions seem pretty well stated.
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Unread 11-26-2005, 02:27 PM   #317
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Here's a good point: the Apogee will work well as a TEC block too.
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Unread 11-26-2005, 03:42 PM   #318
Orkan
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the pin array is only 34mm^2 ... that enough cooling area to work on a 50mm^2 TEC like a 200+ watt?
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Unread 11-26-2005, 04:08 PM   #319
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Maybe, maybe not.
Notwithstanding, predicted performance on 32x32mm Heat -Die is no better than MCW6000 - see up-dated Post133.
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Unread 11-27-2005, 10:09 AM   #320
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I don't know if you guys are aware of this thread on [H], slightly worrying :/
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Unread 11-27-2005, 10:50 AM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeum
I don't know if you guys are aware of this thread on [H], slightly worrying :/
Uhh, just look one page back in this thread. http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&postcount=300
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Unread 11-27-2005, 03:16 PM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
if those are solder tabs that may be a TTV, all TTVs are mounted in their respective sockets
since the CPU/socket/mobo will have to be replicated (as part of the source) to mount a sink or wb that locates off the mobo, there is a lot of hardware involved;
other systems let the mobo float between the chassis and the sink,
and it will be a brand new exercise for BTX
That's the complication I was worried about.

From my perspective, the IHS is mounted in a way to spread the applied mounting pressure between the core area and the rim of the IHS. In what proportion, we do not know.

To estimate it, we'd need all of the measurement of *everything* (core, substrate, IHS), then we'd need to know how thick the seal is on the rim of the IHS, then we'd need to know how hard it(seal) is; then we could quantify how the mounting pressure is spread out.

It's a nightmare.

The load cell idea is great, but I'd rather use the heat dies straight out (10 by 10 and 14 by 14mm), no IHS, and apply an offset for temperature calculations (if we can ever figure them out), which should make up for the missing IHS in the test bench.

Anyone disagree?

Alternatively, we could put on a free-floating IHS, and use mounting pressure similar to bare core mount specs (i.e. 24 to 30 lbs), but that assumes that that's the actual pressure.
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Unread 11-27-2005, 05:47 PM   #323
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Hummm,

If the IHS temp is all the TTV uses then how is that different than the die temp of a die sim? The only thing that bothers me about the IHS is the heat spread/flux. Without putting dozens of probes all over the IHS we really don't know how much of the IHS is being cooled/warmed. Therefor guessing a dimension is useless without the needed data from dozens of calibrated probes of insane resolution.

I say **** it and will be using a die sim.
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Unread 11-27-2005, 06:06 PM   #324
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Remember this? Even though a heat spreader is used, the heat die (core) size still plays a major role...



Post #57 by Groth http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...3&page=3&pp=25
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Unread 11-27-2005, 06:18 PM   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboTech
Remember this? Even though a heat spreader is used, the heat die (core) size still plays a major role...

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/water.gro...at-Flux1mm.gif

Post #57 by Groth http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...3&page=3&pp=25
Yup. This is why I don't understand/like the taking of the IHS temp only. It would be nice to see how well our dies are being cooled as well as the IHS. Also that image would very from block to block being the cooling area inside the blocks are not all the same.

More reasoning IMO to stick with die sim.
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