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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 11-29-2005, 10:14 AM   #376
Incoherent
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
Only it doesn't

Is that a qualified statement pHaestus?
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Unread 11-29-2005, 10:19 AM   #377
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

much worse than BS, more like productcide
they had a "best product' for a kit no less (group buys on hOCP !), now they have an argument

an idiotic segue
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Unread 11-29-2005, 10:20 AM   #378
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
. . . . .
Only it doesn't
TTVitus or CPUitus ?
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Unread 11-29-2005, 10:47 AM   #379
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

edited for less speculation.

I would be EXTREMELY surprised to the the Apogee perform better than the Storm on my Socket A testbed. Comment was based upon my own testing results on that system
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Unread 11-29-2005, 10:53 AM   #380
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Ooooh here's a good Apogee and Storm perform similarly post

Probably an MCW6000 and the Storm would also perform pretty similarly in such a system, eh?
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Unread 11-29-2005, 12:10 PM   #381
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee
It is CNC milled.
Please take a look at that picture.
The scracthes on pins shows the block is not milled but sawed:
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Unread 11-29-2005, 12:17 PM   #382
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

See... that is what I thought when I cracked mine open too. The edges are sawed anyway.

Perhaps the middle grid array is milled, but I doubt it. Would be cheaper and faster to saw it.
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Unread 11-29-2005, 03:33 PM   #383
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
Ooooh here's a good Apogee and Storm perform similarly post

Probably an MCW6000 and the Storm would also perform pretty similarly in such a system, eh?
a spiral should do as well with that mounting access
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Unread 11-29-2005, 07:28 PM   #384
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy_EK
Please take a look at that picture.
The scracthes on pins shows the block is not milled but sawed:
Sure looks like it. Needs to be brushed or blasted after cutting, by the looks of it.
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Unread 11-29-2005, 08:37 PM   #385
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Looks milled to me anyway. Also maybe Swiftech is lying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiftech's Site
The CNC machined C110 copper base plate is at the heart of Apogee's cooling efficiency. The Patent Pending Diamond Pin Matrix was optimized using Computational Fluid Dynamics analysis to yield the remarkable results recorded by the water-block. In the process, thickness of the base was reduced to 3mm. This resulted in a higher compliance of the base with its mating surface (i.e. the CPU heat spreader) thanks to the base plate added flexing ability.
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Unread 11-30-2005, 02:02 AM   #386
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

'cnc machined' doesnt have to be milled (end milled, at least). CNC is computer numeric control, a laser is a CNC device...

It would be extremely foolhardy to injection mould a top, and then use standard mill bits to make the bottom - removes any savings in the top, by adding more machining time to the bottom (and greater replacement of bits, more chance of breakage and machine down time...)
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Unread 11-30-2005, 02:11 AM   #387
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

It is CNC machined, bu that doesn't mean it is milled. It is CNC sawed with special tools.
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Last edited by Eddy_EK; 11-30-2005 at 05:02 AM.
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Unread 11-30-2005, 02:53 AM   #388
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

If it isn't an endmill then not sure what it is. I have not seen a saw of any kind leave a tailing like that only endmills running at the wrong feed rate/RPM ratio. Saws usually leave a clean cut. They are usually not that precise either.

Anyway I digress.
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Unread 11-30-2005, 03:48 AM   #389
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

It's milled with a saws train (don't know the exact english term), several saw wheels spaced on a single axis. One saw :

A lot faster than end milling...
Could have some little defects on edges due to the milling way and copper thickness/weakness, not disturbing.
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Unread 11-30-2005, 03:57 AM   #390
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

In carpentry we call it a stacked dado blade, not sure about metalworking though, never heard of a metal cutting dado.

Not sure how you could use any kind of dado blade to cut groves that small....the blades would have to be too thin and hence fragile.

For whatever reason you wouldnt catch me anywhere near a machine trying to run something like that through metal, its bad enough sometimes in wood.

Last edited by Angry_Steel; 11-30-2005 at 04:03 AM.
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Unread 11-30-2005, 04:12 AM   #391
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

It's not difficult, you could mill with circular saws at a thickness=0.3mm in copper but life tool is not great (very small cut edges). 1mm is quite big here.
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Unread 11-30-2005, 06:25 AM   #392
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Incoherent
......This is exacerbated by TIM variations etc. which I have not modelled at this point. (too complex in a hurry) and even more significant with thin vs thick bases, concentrated cooling regions bla bla....
Post122

Possibly ,even,an understatement.
An illustration using simple ,possibly inappropriate,Waterloo approach

Only exploratory thoughts using simple h(eff) profiles.
Suspect that real profiles are more complex.
Particularly,for comprehension of Apogee data,that of the single inlet onto pin array

However,
Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
a spiral should do as well with that mounting access
possibly a spiral would do nearly as well in reality for modern CPUs where high Watt concentrates can develop.

Know SFA about CPUs however it is possible that it is the control of these local high flux densities that concerns the processor developers.
Maybe they do not care a monkey's 8888 about the performance of a Heatsink on a 10+ sq mm Heat Die.
May still be all about TIM.
Would classify an IHS as a TIM with HeatSpreading properties

Incoherent
Good to see some progress on flux and temperature modelling for the Flux-die.
Am mid-stream between rads and wbs and having focusing problems.
I have not yet formulated anything worth posting in the Flux-die thread.

Anyone have the real dimensions of the Swiftech MCW6000?

Edit1: Have graphs for intermediate dies an other wb models: may post as attachment later.
Edit2: Added attachment: Resistance vs Die-area graph
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Apogee12.jpg (53.0 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg Apogee17.jpg (19.7 KB, 1 views)

Last edited by Les; 01-11-2006 at 03:38 AM.
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Unread 11-30-2005, 11:03 AM   #393
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Slotting saws on an arbor.
Heres a pic of a .02" slotting saw I have on an arbor cutting .125" deep in aluminum:


It is very easy to rip through aluminum, I have not tried copper yet.

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Unread 11-30-2005, 11:07 AM   #394
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

... what I wouldn't give for a nice machining center.

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Unread 11-30-2005, 11:21 AM   #395
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

bigass sled, don't wanna mess with those raindeer

a LOT more difficult with ganged slit saws
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Unread 11-30-2005, 05:48 PM   #396
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

wow a lot of talk and no action..........looking forward to seeing ph's results

so is every customer going to have to crack their block open to clean it up.......
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Unread 11-30-2005, 06:43 PM   #397
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

maybe the blocks ship with a sand blasting setup
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Unread 11-30-2005, 07:43 PM   #398
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe
maybe the blocks ship with a sand blasting setup
lmfao... classic.
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Unread 11-30-2005, 08:56 PM   #399
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscal
It's milled with a saws train (don't know the exact english term), several saw wheels spaced on a single axis. One saw :

A lot faster than end milling...
Could have some little defects on edges due to the milling way and copper thickness/weakness, not disturbing.
That is pretty cool. Have not seen a saw like that before for metal. Makes more sense why the tailings are left attached.

Bruce at cooltechnica cuts .5mm slits in his bases and dosn't have any issues with shavings that I noticed. Probably just trying to cut to fast.
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Unread 12-01-2005, 04:25 AM   #400
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

The first I shown is a 3 cutting edges saw, generally too thick for milling such tiny channels. This one below is better with smaller cutting edges (like JFettig's pic) :

Thickness can be 0.15mm -> 0.15mm channels wide possible (need extreme care and slow advance ) . It's not a problem to use 0.5mm saw when channels are not too tall, which is the case in the MP05.

A polish friend made 0.3mm channels on 8mm height (!!) using saws, it's really the limit because copper is too soft and bend very easily under milling constraints (EDM is better here) :
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