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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 02-11-2006, 06:21 PM   #26
BillA
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

seems there is more $ than sense here
solid state ram drives
let us know the cost eh
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Unread 02-11-2006, 08:42 PM   #27
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

I think it possible to do submersion cooling with HDDs but kinda conflicts with having raid 5 storage. Totally defeats purpose of redundancy.

If you put it in an enclosure around HDD the problem is you will still transfer alot of heat from hdd>air>enclosure.

http://www.svc.com/lhd-v05-uk-19.html.

*For submersion cooling*
Buy 5 of these. Remove faceplate and build a new faceplate and back plate. They already have a bottomplate so just seal it airtight.

Doesn't work out you can still use the enclosures and use some foam and the drives should stay pretty silent.
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Unread 02-16-2006, 03:05 PM   #28
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobo5195
FC-77 is for cooling due to its properties. As a cooling fluid it is actually no where near as good as water. I had a little design check and i reckon that at best i could get storm performance out of a direct die cooling of pcs with fc77.
Hmm... I use PF-5080 on a dual Opteron 250 and Radeon 9800Pro, the whole lot cooled by a single BIX with a quiet Panaflo low-flow fan; coolant flow is 1.73 litres/min. Temps are in the 42C to 47C max. range in a room at 20C. Not as good as water, perhaps, but I'd say Fluorinert does OK.

Agree with BillA though: more money than sense. It is so easy to build an elegantly simple, quiet system without having to resort to complex cooling solutions and sound-proofed walls and all that jazz.
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Unread 02-16-2006, 04:50 PM   #29
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

I have a watercooled HTPC I'm building and an air cooled HTPC. I'm doing simultaneous builds. Guess which one is quieter? Oh, and guess which cooling system is cheaper and easier to maintain.

More to come, of course, but the idea is that the "obvious" solution to extreme quietness is often more trouble than it is worth and may even be less effective.
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Unread 02-16-2006, 06:54 PM   #30
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

I'm guessing the air is both quieter (and obviously cheaper/easier to maintain).

pumped liquid cooling is always going to lose in noise to air (assuming same case design). You'd have to do some serious noise isolation etc to make water quieter; not hard, but pretty pointless especially for an htpc.

Personally, id probably look at making a passive heatsink/heatpipe solution like the zalman cases, with a single 120mm @ 800rpm to move heat over the componentry. Wouldnt be too hard to make a pumpless system if you really wanted to use water.
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Unread 02-16-2006, 07:01 PM   #31
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

Current watercooling gear is aimed at performance with a bend to silence. HTPC market should be silence first.

As per BillA's post in another thread, need a radiator designed for passive operation. PA160.1 is close.

My goal is single 120mm fan @ 7v (eg: tricod) for the entire system.
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Unread 02-17-2006, 12:28 AM   #32
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Haired Git
My goal is single 120mm fan @ 7v (eg: tricod) for the entire system.
Identical to mine. Have constructed a makeshift case out of mdf, but will be doing a better job in the future once money permits.
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Unread 02-17-2006, 01:42 AM   #33
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etacovda
Identical to mine. Have constructed a makeshift case out of mdf, but will be doing a better job in the future once money permits.
Link? Photos? Performance? Issues?

I was going to put my fan above PSU sucking out of it, and then seal the case so that air could only get into the case via the radiator. Yes, everything in the case runs a bit warmer, but the things I care about will be WC and thus cooler.

You?
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Unread 02-17-2006, 04:20 AM   #34
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

no links, only plans at this stage. I deem watercooling to be a pointless complication for the power requirements of the parts im using, so im going all air.

I plan to use a passive psu mounted in a seperate compartment, to not be effected by the heat of the case. A series of ducts with the 120mm fan pulling over hdd heatsink, graphics/pci slot stuff, cpu, then out of the case. Im relying on multiple chambers w/ dacron + foam walls to reduce noise levels, along with a duct drawing from underneath my ht cabinet.

Basically ill be trying a few fans, and getting the most airflow I can without hearing it significantly (and my noise tolerance is pretty low, but mdf is a damn fine noise insulator). The HDDs will be connected to a large passive heatsink which will be mounted with the fins in the intake area of the case. I have a relatively small area to work with and want to have ease of maintainence along with several hdd's in the space.

Course, as with any project, revisions are pretty common at the moment. What i have built now is a simple dual chamber box with PSU/hdds/DVD in one compartment, and the motherboard in the other, with a 120mm fan drawing out the heat over the cpu HS. Its not as quiet as id like it at present, and its definitely pretty botchjobish, but i wanted to get it done quickly.
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Unread 03-01-2006, 02:36 PM   #35
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

I've been gone for a while, but have been giving this project a lot of thought and am still planning on pursuing it. I appreciate all of the advice so far and welcome more, but we seem to be stuck on a particular issue: I say I want a silent computer and am countered with how easy it would be to make a quiet computer. We're not on the same topic when we do that and a rational discussion is impossible. The presence of a single fan is too much and too loud. One of my computers is an old P-2 with a single quiet 120mm fan plus the PSU and it was too loud. So I built a wooden enclosure for it and it was quieter, but still too loud. Now I have a resistor wired between the mobo and fan to lower the RPM's and it's quieter yet, but still too loud. So a two fan system with a custom made box at low RPM's is too loud for my application. Now, granted, I can still hear the hdd's in this system over the fans at times. And this is what originally got me thinking of watercooling--I wanted a way to cool the hard drives while being able to seal them in something as close to soundproof as I can design. Then the idea expanded to include total watercooling with a large passive radiator and fanless PSU's, then I stumbled upon submersion cooling and here I am.

It certainly appears that dunking the hard drives would be a bad idea and I have decided against this. I'm thinking of picking up 4 of http://www.koolance.com/shop/product...roducts_id=231these to cool the 8 drives and then sealing them behind mdf/insulating foam/whatever to silence them.

From there things get a bit fuzzy... I'm envisioning a small custom fish tank that is only big enough to house the mobo/pci cards and a submerged pump or two (and possible a PSU--need help here). The mobo would be mounted vertically and the top of the tank would be plexiglass. I could use a dremel to cut out the plexi to exactly fit the mobo and cards and probably even seal the two with silicon or something. With the exception of the cables (sata, maybe even power if the PSU is in there) this will create a sealed system. I would love some suggestions on how to get the cables out too.

I would like to use an eheim 1046 (maybe two) because it seems to be considered the quietest pump and can be submerged which I thought would further quiet it. I'm not sure if only 1 could be used for the 4 hard drive cooling blocks and a large radiator or if I'd need 1 for the hard drives and another for just the radiator. These lines would also enter and exit through the top plexi.

Here are my two biggest hangups right now and both seem to depend on the other. My original idea was to get 2 Antec Phantom 350's and just split the load (run them in parallel). However, if one were to fail I would lose half the RAID array and that would be disastrous. It seems to make more sense to use one large PSU to power everything, however, these all have fans. Now I'm considering sticking the fanned PSU in the Fluorinert but that would be adding a whole lot more heat to my system, require the use of a larger radiator which in turn would require a lot more Fluorinert to fill it and that's just a lot of money (It seems I can get the Fluorinert for $200-250/gallon and I would really like to stay in the 2-3 gallon range for the whole system) I would love some help in this area. I'm also looking at radiators outside of the computer or automotive arenas as they seem too small for passive cooling. I'm not sure exactly how big of a radiator I need though because I don't know how much heat it is that I'm going to be dissipating.

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my opening paragraph. I'll agree with you, this is not practical. It's a hobby and a projectand something challenging I've never done before. A lot of the impetus is to just see if it can be done, and if it's done well, I will be thrilled. Any suggestions are very much appreciated.
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Unread 03-01-2006, 02:47 PM   #36
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

you should do more testing, (then post)
there is no shortage of fanless psus, buy some with the other equipment you plan on using and see how well they handle the load
- and do they too have an objectionable hum ?

I've tried several and they do smell toasty, is odor objectionable ?

once you resolve the psu setup, move to the next phase

talking about this and that all in a jumble is just talk, but hey - thats fun for some too
opinions never substitute for data
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Unread 03-01-2006, 03:05 PM   #37
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

Do you plan on having the Galden unpumped? If so, be prepared for bad temps. If you do pump the galden, be prepared for an unsilent computer. Pumps make noise just like fans.
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Unread 03-01-2006, 04:06 PM   #38
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

As far as the PSU goes, the largest completely fanless PSU of any quality that I am aware of is 350 watts. I can add, and I don't need to buy that to discover it won't power an 8 drive RAID-5 server. So I either need two, or one large PSU (with fan) in which case I will dunk it in the Fluorinert to silence and cool it. But you're right, I'm presenting too many options--there's too much going on. So for now, I am planning on buying a nice quality PSU with fan, say 500+ watts, and submerge it. How would I determine how much extra heat this is adding to my system? Besides the Fluorinert, it's looking like the radiator is going to be the most expensive part of this project. I don't want to just buy one and "whoops" find out it won't cut it, or conversely, get one that 's way too big and have to buy and unecessary amount of coolant.

Brians256, the Fluorinert will be pumped through some large passive as yet undecided radiator (once I figure out how much heat I'm trying to dissipate). I will submerge the pump which should help quiet it, but remember, this whole contraption is going to be built into a piece of furniture. That is where I am expecting the bulk of the quieting to come from. Do you think I have a chance of silencing a pump like this?
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Unread 03-01-2006, 04:24 PM   #39
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

Europe is the mkt for fanless psus, ck there (try cooling-masters)
seeking specific answers to undefined questions for a totally novel project on a forum is . . . . .
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Unread 03-01-2006, 04:53 PM   #40
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

Thanks, I'll check that out and see if I can find a fanless PSU rated for more than 350 watts (though my French isn't that great and Google's translation is even worse...)
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Unread 03-01-2006, 06:14 PM   #41
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

I live in Sweden and these are the fanless PSUs I can think of.
Thermaltake W0050 350W
Antec Phantom 350W
Antec Phantom 500W, Not really fanless but they market it as fanless, maybe it could work if you removed the fans?

Maybe a couple of 350W PSUs?
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Unread 03-01-2006, 06:42 PM   #42
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

I dunno, submerging 12v components vs submerging 120/240v components - i wouldnt want to risk playing with that sort of fire, personally.

If the fans are 'too loud', you're not using the right fans... its as simple as that. If an undervolted nexus is too loud for you, hard drives should drive you NUTS.
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Unread 03-02-2006, 06:37 PM   #43
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

Passive Radiators
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Unread 03-03-2006, 05:32 AM   #44
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

A passive (=fanless) 550W PSU:
http://www.yesico.de/products/p_fl550atxt.htm

They're not lying on the ratings. Yesico are up there in quality terms with Antec, very good circuitry, high quality components, oversized heatsinks.
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Unread 03-03-2006, 07:44 AM   #45
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

lol, no US distributors
perhaps Mark @ Frozen will pick it up
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Unread 03-03-2006, 09:42 AM   #46
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

Note, on back of that PSU it states "230v only" - check if they actually do em in 110v / switching format first!!
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Unread 03-03-2006, 09:52 AM   #47
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

good point Marci,
I missed that completely;
(and those step-down transformers do hum, lol)
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Unread 03-03-2006, 11:06 AM   #48
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

Ha 110V forgot about that (and dont get me started on 60Hz either) - i suppose that if they want a US export model it wont be hard to change the plug and mains circuitry to handle the 110V..
Anyway i own a Yesico PSU myself, no hum, no whine, no noise at all, even when sticking the ear *near* it (it runs quite hot actually, esp. in my fanless setup).
I think other mfgers have similar PSUs, like Antec for instance ? I cant remember OTOH but you can dig SPCR. High power fanless PSUs are out there, they're not easy to find that's all
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Unread 03-03-2006, 11:59 AM   #49
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marci
Note, on back of that PSU it states "230v only" - check if they actually do em in 110v / switching format first!!
if you follow the "specifications" link it says "230 Volt / optional 115 Volt avaiable"

i imagine that the taiwan office may be the best bet - since their mains is 110V 60hz iirc...
http://www.yesico.de/buy_asia.htm
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Unread 03-03-2006, 01:03 PM   #50
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Default Re: Galden ZT 150

The power supply looks good, at least according to the specs, but being located in Boston, I really don't want to deal with the shipping or rma if there is a problem with it. The largest fanless psu that I've found available in the States is a 460watter by Luxurae or something like that--it's 12v rails are pathetic though and wouldn't cut it for the number of drives I want. I'm really seriously thinking I'm just going to dunk a fanned PSU. I'm a horrible artist and have no CAD like software, but I whipped this up in mspaint just so people can sort of visualize what I'm thinking and critique appropriately.

It's a glass case, dimension will depend on the pump, mobo size etc, but I'm hoping to make smaller than a typical midsize case. The top is plexi and I'll use a dremel to fit the mobo an pci cards nicely in there The blue blob is the PSU, I'm thinking of mounting it with the fan and cord facing upward. The pump (not drawn) I would like to suspend toward the top so it would be pumping the hottest liquid out. The outlet would go through 4 hdd blocks then to the radiator. The return, which I drew, I would have arranged such that it flowed directly over the processor. The cool liquid would sink and the PSU fan would sort of circulate it. I was/am still worried about the PSU fan's ability to push the liquid, but then I saw some guy who filled a fishtank with vegetable oil and has had the PSU fan running for over a year.

In keeping with BillA's suggestion to have specific questions, I have 2:

1.) I'm considering a smallish home heating radiator of the type seen here http://www.simplyradiators.co.uk/pages/aluminium.htm There is some data on it, but I'm having a hard time making it applicable to my situation. Considering the presence of a 500watt PSU in the liquid, near 0 airflow, but mounted on a cool to cold outer wall, how on earth do I go about figuring what dimensions I need for a radiator?

2.) What is the quietest pump that will work with this situation?
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