Go Back   Pro/Forums > ProCooling Technical Discussions > Xtreme Cooling
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar JavaChat Mark Forums Read

Xtreme Cooling LN2, Dry Ice, Peltiers, etc... All the usual suspects

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 07-13-2002, 11:51 PM   #1
SonixOS
Cooling Savant
 
SonixOS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 282
Default Phase Change

Hey guys. I got a bunch of money and nothing to do (except for try to get an A in chem during summer school and study for the SATs) so i thought i should go for phase change. I recently bought a maze 3-1 and a 226w peltier. So now i thought i could push even more cooling and get awesome temps with the peltier and the phase change. I was wondering if any of u seasoned pros got tips or suggestions i should follow. (linkages would be helpful too). I'm about to reread #rotor's guide on how to use a dehumidifier to cool ur processor. Oh yeah, which one is better to use: a fridge core or dehumidifier core?
__________________
-sonix-
=======================
Antec SX830
Abit KR7A-133
MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128
TV-IN and TV-OUT
Sound Blaster Audigy
Linksys LNE100 V2.0
Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x
IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig
Watercooled
http://www.sonixnet.tk
=======================
SonixOS is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-14-2002, 09:22 AM   #2
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

Glad to see that I'm not alone being crazy!

I'm also thinking about pretty much the same as you, except with a TC-4 (modded) block.

In my research, I've found some theory, but very little practical info.

In short though, there are 3 ways to phase-change cool a PC:
1-stick the PC in the fridge (usually a bad idea)
2-stick a bucket of water in the fridge (easiest)
3-run the phase change lines through the waterblock (very hard)

Personally, I'd stick with the fridge, rather than the humidifier, simply because the fridge is probably a bit more powerful, with a higher duty cycle. Also, it's possible to mod a fridge to run continously, and I'm not sure how you'd do that with the dehumidifier unit.
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-14-2002, 12:16 PM   #3
SonixOS
Cooling Savant
 
SonixOS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 282
Default

I disagree, i discussed this with pH, and u kno pH is NEVER wrong, he said use a dehumidifier because it usually has higher BTU. As for continuous system running, if you read the #rotor guide u would know that he asks that the thermostat be removed.
__________________
-sonix-
=======================
Antec SX830
Abit KR7A-133
MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128
TV-IN and TV-OUT
Sound Blaster Audigy
Linksys LNE100 V2.0
Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x
IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig
Watercooled
http://www.sonixnet.tk
=======================
SonixOS is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-14-2002, 01:44 PM   #4
ECUPirate
Hottest Stank of them All
 
ECUPirate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Washington, DC area
Posts: 533
Default

you could take some of that cash and buy a better video card...

my .02
__________________
Does a radioactive cat have 18 half lifes? --Kenny

my pimpin' rig: ...previously poorly cooled...
486DX-2 66mhz @ 75mhz, 4Mb ram, shared, 256Mb hard drive
Onboard VGA, watercooled, of course
16-color monitor, labtec speakers, 28kbs USRobotics modem
Windows XP (think about it)
Maze 3, DDen GF3 block, Eheim 1250, econoline van HC, 1/2" hose w/ 5/8" fittings Comair 172mm fan
ECUPirate is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-14-2002, 04:47 PM   #5
_Mike_
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 29
Default

Well, your options are a little different than Bigben2k mentioned. Sticking a PC in the freezer, in my book, is air cooling. Putting your resivoi/radiator in a freezer isn't extreme enough to be worth it, in my opinion (again). Now, you could run the evaporator coils in a insulated tub, and use that for your resivoir, but generally you will need to make a new evapotator, find that a better condensor design is necessary, and you need access to a refrigerant.

Now, you mentioned running the refigerant through a waterblock type thing. This is the method used by Vapochill and other "clamshell" type setups you see. This is very hard, I'm am not even sure of the exact setup, and the fact then of getting it to run efficiently is a huge task.

I suggest the water chilling method I described, if possible.
_Mike_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 08:09 AM   #6
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by SonixOS
I disagree, i discussed this with pH, and u kno pH is NEVER wrong, he said use a dehumidifier because it usually has higher BTU. As for continuous system running, if you read the #rotor guide u would know that he asks that the thermostat be removed.
Thanks SonicOS, that was usefull.

I agree that it's possible that a dehumidifier might be more powerfull. I think that both are very close, and that they should be looked at individually.

Removing the thermostat is not an easy feat. I re-read #rotor's guide, but didn't find the reference to removing the thermostat.

re-statement: 4 ways to phase change cool:
1-stick the PC in the fridge (usually a bad idea)
2-stick a bucket of water in the fridge (easiest, not very efficient)
3-stick the evaporator coil of a phase change unit in a bucket (easy, efficient)
4-run the phase change lines through the waterblock (very hard, extremely eficient)
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 08:38 AM   #7
gmat
Thermophile
 
gmat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: France
Posts: 1,221
Default

Hmm something's wrong here or i misunderstood. Let's review the different solutions

I'll use the following syntax:
+Element
[Heat transport medium]

Conventional watercooling loop:
+Core
+Waterblock
[Water]
+Rad
[Air]

'Usual' phase change loop: (quite easy)
+Core
+Waterblock
[Water]
+Chiller (evap)
[Toxic stuff]
+Chiller (condenser)
[Air]

'Vapochill-like' phase change loop: (quite hard)
+Core
+Chiller (evap)
[Toxic stuff]
+Chiller (condenser)
[Air]

In a 'usual' phase change setup the evaporator *should* be in contact with water.

Putting a water loop in a fridge does the following :
+Core
+Waterblock
[Water]
+Copper loop (or bucket or rad..)
[Air]
+Chiller (evap)
[Toxic stuff]
+Chiller (condenser)
[Air]

You're just adding a layer... No good, not efficient at all. Air is a very good insulator.
Why not chill water directly ? That's what most "phase changers" are doing.

Besides you dont want to add any extra layer after the condenser. That would only hinder its performance.
And remember you don't want air *inside* the loop. Let air stay at the end of the process.

(edit) oops i just saw last BB2K post. Well, that's it, i just confirmed
gmat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 09:21 AM   #8
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

I'm glad you chimed in gmat, because I didn't really care to go through all the details!

Adding a transition however, might not be such a bad thing. It adds inneficiency, but that innefficiency can be minimized, depending on how it's setup. In this particular case however, the extra layer is [air] and that's never good.
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 05:44 PM   #9
SonixOS
Cooling Savant
 
SonixOS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 282
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by ECUPirate
you could take some of that cash and buy a better video card...

my .02
uuh, buying a new vid card is no fun. first of all I (emphasizing the I) do not see much difference in the graphics, if i dont see the difference its not worth it. On the other hand, phase change will keep me busy and away from Jay.
__________________
-sonix-
=======================
Antec SX830
Abit KR7A-133
MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128
TV-IN and TV-OUT
Sound Blaster Audigy
Linksys LNE100 V2.0
Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x
IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig
Watercooled
http://www.sonixnet.tk
=======================
SonixOS is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 05:54 PM   #10
SonixOS
Cooling Savant
 
SonixOS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 282
Default

Quote:
'Vapochill-like' phase change loop: (quite hard)
+Core
+Chiller (evap)
[Toxic stuff]
+Chiller (condenser)
[Air]
well that was what I am thinking of. Use the actual coolant (Refridgerant 135a I believe) and use that to cool. I got a hardcore condensor pull from a Honda Civic (http://www.geocities.com/sonixos/). As for the evaporator, as I understand it from a brief talk with Amperage a while ago, its basically a think piece of copper, maybe 1/2" thick that conducts the heat from the core to the refridgerant causing it to gain energy (Heat) and then changing phase to liquid and then go back to the cooling stuff. Is that correct? and could someone explain how the coolant is then cooled again? Oh yeah another thing, could I steal some cool gas from my central air conditioning system? My PC is right next to the A/C room. hehehehe . . just a thought.
__________________
-sonix-
=======================
Antec SX830
Abit KR7A-133
MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128
TV-IN and TV-OUT
Sound Blaster Audigy
Linksys LNE100 V2.0
Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x
IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig
Watercooled
http://www.sonixnet.tk
=======================
SonixOS is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 06:04 PM   #11
#Rotor
Cooling Savant
 
#Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dione, sector 4s1256
Posts: 852
Default

Mind if I chirp in...

One very very important fact to keep in mind with direct core phase change , i.e., Vapochill style, the fact that the refrigerant is in a state of phase-change, while being in the "block" or evaporator. What does this mean? Well for one, it means that it's boiling, which means it's fluid and gas mixed..... This is not a good thing, when the evaporator is as small as it needs to be for this job, because every little bubble in there touching the side, means a loss in thermal conductivity.

With running a significantly larger coil shaped evaporator, submerged into a secondary refrigerant, you will still get that phenomenon in the primary refrigerant, but the added surface area of the much larger evaporator will greatly negate the negative effect it has on thermal transfer. now you have the secondary refrigerant going through the "HOTSPOT" i.e. the block on the CPU, and this time round, there is no changing phase. 100% thermal transfer at all times.... This is the biggest benefit to chilling liquid with phase change. more practical ones is the ease with which you can now chill more than just one CPU......


To set some facts straight, with regards to the de-humidifier. They are designed to run 24/7. The reason for this is plain and very simple, the compressor has a nice 11" fan mounted right above it, hens nice fast moving air all the time. And that is all it takes to make any hermetic system run 24/7.. Also, a thermostat is needed(and recommended) only if you wish to have the ability to set the operating temp to a value other than maximum cold... for instance using it's vastly superior heat moving capacity at above 10ÂșC, to comfort say an cluster of 10 PC's, all at once.

What I meant to be removed from the De-humidifier is the humidistat. That is a device that acts on relative humidity. it could care less what the temperature is, and thus it needs to go.
#Rotor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 06:19 PM   #12
SonixOS
Cooling Savant
 
SonixOS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 282
Default

Quote:
With running a significantly larger coil shaped evaporator, submerged into a secondary refrigerant, you will still get that phenomenon in the primary refrigerant, but the added surface area of the much larger evaporator will greatly negate the negative effect it has on thermal transfer. now you have the secondary refrigerant going through the "HOTSPOT" i.e. the block on the CPU, and this time round, there is no changing phase. 100% thermal transfer at all times.... This is the biggest benefit to chilling liquid with phase change. more practical ones is the ease with which you can now chill more than just one CPU......

uuuuuhh, i dont exactly get what u are trying to say there. Correct me please, you are saying that I should use a liquid and then use a refrigerant to cool the radiator and running a loop through that? Doesnt make much sense to me man.
__________________
-sonix-
=======================
Antec SX830
Abit KR7A-133
MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128
TV-IN and TV-OUT
Sound Blaster Audigy
Linksys LNE100 V2.0
Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x
IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig
Watercooled
http://www.sonixnet.tk
=======================
SonixOS is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 06:29 PM   #13
#Rotor
Cooling Savant
 
#Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dione, sector 4s1256
Posts: 852
Default

what I'm saying is, have the primary refrigerant ( R134a or whatever) go through a nice large evaporater. Then make that evaporater cool down Water/glycol (secondary refrigetant.) in other words, use a phase change cooler to replace the radiator in a normal water cooling rig... you get the best of both extremes, put together into one.
#Rotor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 06:41 PM   #14
SonixOS
Cooling Savant
 
SonixOS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 282
Default

rtfm'ing
http://www.procooling.com/articles/h...plained1.shtml
__________________
-sonix-
=======================
Antec SX830
Abit KR7A-133
MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128
TV-IN and TV-OUT
Sound Blaster Audigy
Linksys LNE100 V2.0
Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x
IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig
Watercooled
http://www.sonixnet.tk
=======================
SonixOS is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 06:58 PM   #15
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by #Rotor
what I'm saying is, have the primary refrigerant ( R134a or whatever) go through a nice large evaporater. Then make that evaporater cool down Water/glycol (secondary refrigetant.) in other words, use a phase change cooler to replace the radiator in a normal water cooling rig... you get the best of both extremes, put together into one.
That's what I was looking for! On to e-bay...

How is this type of setup for noise?
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 07:27 PM   #16
SonixOS
Cooling Savant
 
SonixOS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 282
Default

humm, at last i think i got it. After reading Brian's section in that big beefy article. I think what u mean rotor is use the refrigerant and the condensor and all that nice stuff to cool WATER and that WATER will go to the processor and come back to the reservoir.

did i get it? huh? huh? did i?
__________________
-sonix-
=======================
Antec SX830
Abit KR7A-133
MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128
TV-IN and TV-OUT
Sound Blaster Audigy
Linksys LNE100 V2.0
Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x
IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig
Watercooled
http://www.sonixnet.tk
=======================
SonixOS is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 07:40 PM   #17
#Rotor
Cooling Savant
 
#Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dione, sector 4s1256
Posts: 852
Default

jip exactly..... the water is the secondary refrigerant.


don't get confused, I'm not saying mix the two refrigerants..... they stay very much apart from another... it's just the heat that is carried by them, that moves from one to the other, at certain stages....


noise.... well keep in mind that at the end of the day, the heat still gets dumped into the atmosphere, and for that you need an air-mover (fan) though with this de-humidifier, you have a 11" fan, so you can imagine it to be a lot less high pitched, from the fact that it just doesn't need to turn that fast. You might investigate a cheap ceiling fan controller, to give you nice 100% variability on it's speed.... my Chip-Chillers has them and I can set the fan speed to a point that I can not hear it running at all...
#Rotor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 07:46 PM   #18
SonixOS
Cooling Savant
 
SonixOS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 282
Default

can u point us into which dehumidifier we should get? Or maybe what we should look for (by ourselves) in the dehumdifier of choice (brand, btu rate, coolant, size, price etc..).


thx rotor. u've been a great help already. u too brian (is that brian256k ?).
__________________
-sonix-
=======================
Antec SX830
Abit KR7A-133
MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128
TV-IN and TV-OUT
Sound Blaster Audigy
Linksys LNE100 V2.0
Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x
IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig
Watercooled
http://www.sonixnet.tk
=======================
SonixOS is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 08:03 PM   #19
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

Yeah, you got it.

The point (again!?!) is that the area to be cooled is very small (inside the block, about as big as the core), and that may not be enough surface area for the phased substance (R-134A) to remain liquid while sitting on top of the hot area. If it's not entirely liquid, then it's partly vapor, ergo the heat transfer is not as efficient.

Under that logic, one would push to have the coolant cool the block, and not the block's hotspot. So, make the block's base plate thicker, so that this hot spot issue isn't so much of an issue anymore.

Even simpler, such a block only needs to have a baseplate that is solid (maybe even polycarbonate) but with a copper part that touches the core.

It'd be tricky to do with polycarb though, without endangering the core.

Maybe something like this:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg bbpc.jpg (4.0 KB, 528 views)
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 08:07 PM   #20
#Rotor
Cooling Savant
 
#Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dione, sector 4s1256
Posts: 852
Default

for single CPU application, even the smallest of small ones are still enough but, the golden rule by which all overclockers should govern there actions and choices are valid here too.... "MORE IS ALWAYS BETTER"

through price is the exclusion on that rule... of coarse it's actually the inverse, but not at the expense of performance or reliability though...


I know for a fact the box style de-humidifiers do work and can be retrofitted with minimal expenses and no need for cutting anything...... the newer ones I do not know yet, as I have not yet had the opportunity to do a conversion on them.... I suspect though that they might be a bit trickier to do properly...
#Rotor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 08:22 PM   #21
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

Ok, so I'm looking at the Sears website, and the smallest (cheapest) Kenmore dehumidifier.
Kenmore humidifier

It's rated 480 Watts, and goes for $150.
Add a block $40
a good pump $60

and voila, a $250 cooling unit.
(some mods required)

Use windshield wiper fluid, some tubing, some foam, a relay, a temp controller, ...
I am happy.

Now the big Q: do I still want to use a pelt with that?
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 08:23 PM   #22
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

... but I have a big box next to my comp, and it still makes some noise...
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 08:30 PM   #23
#Rotor
Cooling Savant
 
#Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dione, sector 4s1256
Posts: 852
Default

yes you still do want to use pelts with it..


and yes you still have a box, but that box does not have to stand next to your computer now, does it..... just imagine....
#Rotor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 08:37 PM   #24
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

Punisher is going to kick himself for missing this...
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-15-2002, 09:27 PM   #25
SonixOS
Cooling Savant
 
SonixOS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 282
Default

Got my Corsair 512mb XMS3200 today (Winbond chip v2.1).
I'm gonna run it on my Abit KR7A-133 mobo (PC2100).
Talk about serious underclocking.
Oh yeah, 226 watt pelt.
AND soon, drum roll plz... PHASE CHANGE COOLED!

adios.

BTW-did I mention i got the newest, elitest winbond chips on my hands? Jason ur getting none of this rich boy.
__________________
-sonix-
=======================
Antec SX830
Abit KR7A-133
MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128
TV-IN and TV-OUT
Sound Blaster Audigy
Linksys LNE100 V2.0
Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x
IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig
Watercooled
http://www.sonixnet.tk
=======================
SonixOS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(C) 2005 ProCooling.com
If we in some way offend you, insult you or your people, screw your mom, beat up your dad, or poop on your porch... we're sorry... we were probably really drunk...
Oh and dont steal our content bitches! Don't give us a reason to pee in your open car window this summer...