TC-4 Changes Made To The Tubulators

[DodgeViper]

MadDogMe, yes I made the shrouds and yes they are soldered to the heater core. Yes I am running the flow backwards from what others do. This is an updated photo of the block I am using. The one that Gone_Fishing has a problem with.

[DodgeViper]

This is the heater core I am using today. The one above is being finished and waiting a few other parts to arrive to finish my new system.

[LiquidRulez]

WOW.......that sure is pretty!

I meant the VIPER in your avatar.
Just kidding

[DodgeViper]

Here are the results of MBM5 about a week ago. I have nothing to hide of my temps. The 41c is while the system is running a program called FOLDING@HOME. The 36c is while the system is idled. The high temperature of 46c was the result of having no cooling on inside the house while folding and the ambient temps had risen causing the CPU temps to rise. These temps are read from the die as I am using an EPOX 8K3A+ motherboard.

Gone_Fishing seems to have a problem with me and others modifying the TC-4, why? I have no clue. Just removing the stock turbulators while using an Eheim 1250 pump lowered my temps 3c while using an open channel block. Adding the copper coil dropped the temps another 1c.

He seems to say, “I can gather the claims of any gain are within the limits of a good or bad mounting”. How does he know how many times I mounted the block? Or how I mount the block? Or what steps I take to mount the block? Seems to me he’s a little out of touch and does not have the people knocking at his door steps requesting one of his blocks.

Then GF follows with “Ok, here's some more "hype" for ya since ya mentioned it The TC-4 would not outperform my block despite the text covered flashy photos you love to hate” or “The TC-4 is a basic wide channel maze, obviously in need of help to stay in the running, otherwise why the attempt to modify it? Again I ask where is the real proof of any gain?”


What do I say? Where is your f-----g proof of your block!!!!

[BillA]

DodgeViper

I'm having more than a little difficulty 'following' this TC-4 modding exercise

as I understand it (and do correct my errors):
- the initial Dtek wb was a 3-fold labyrinth,
- which was modded by Danny with the insertion of 'turbulators'
- which was then modded by you to remove the 'turbulators'
- which was then again modded by you to insert different 'turbulators'

now at each step of this process a reduction in temps was reported

my questions:
how did the TC-4 w/o turbulators differ from the initial wb w/o turbulators ?
you reported the last 3 of these progressions; any reasonably comparable data sets ?

I ask because I too have tested the TC-4 (reported elsewhere) and found it to be quite effective
-> I'm suspecting you may have a few too many uncontrolled variables obscuring 'what's really goin' on'

[gone_fishin]

Originally posted by DodgeViper
MadDogMe, yes I made the shrouds and yes they are soldered to the heater core. Yes I am running the flow backwards from what others do. This is an updated photo of the block I am using. The one that Gone_Fishing has a problem with.

A quick perusal of the thread will tell you I am not the only one skeptical of the claims.

I do not have a problem with the block. It is a good maze style block, I never said otherwise. I do not see evidence of these wire doohickeys making a positive impact. It was a good experiment but I do not see sound evidence or even theory of the beneficial claims you are trying to convince us readers of. One degree Celsius is most definately in the realm of variables. Tim joint? Mount allignment? Accuracy and resolution of probes? Control of environment?

BTW you are the one Dodge that brought my block into this thread discussion and the name's gone_fishin

[DodgeViper]

Once the stock turbulators were removed I saw a 3c drop in temps while using my Eheim 1250 pump. The block was run as an open channel block. I then decided to add my copper coils to add turbulance within the block. The coils are small enough not to restrict the flow but to drop the temps another 1c. Over the open channel block I only saw a drop of 1c.

Now I doubt that if another smaller pump is used anyone would see a difference. I have always based this info. while using a 1250 pump with it's 28 watts.

[DodgeViper]

I am not trying to convince any readers. It's up to those that have a TC -4 that they can make a change. There is not doubt that just removing the stock turbulators will improve the block while using a Eheim 1250 pump. I'm not going to loose sleep trying to convince you whether they work.

[BillA]

DV
I understand what you did, let me explain what, and why, I'm asking

a 3°C drop due to increased velocity alone is VERY large
the TC-4 with the turbulators is VERY good

the 1250 does not have enough head to boost the flow 'all that much' with the removal of the turbulators
and the re-insertion of different turbulators returns one effectively to about the initial flow rate

you can not get here from there

OR your initial measurements were wrong
OR your subsequent measurements are wrong
therefore I asked if you have some comparable data for the 3 tests

no, a response is NOT : well now it is 3° better . . . .
do/did you record the complete data sets such that others can compare them ?

your claims appear to be inconsistent, and extravagant
but before I suggest that you are blowing smoke, I'm asking to see the data

[DodgeViper]

Hard data that you or others would welcome I do not have. What I do keep are my records that I type into WORD what my case/cpu/ambient were before I made changes to the block in MY system.

Once the ambient air temp is maintained to the same temp I take readings. Nothing has changed in my system. I still use the same heater core/fans/pump/water block and air flow through the case.

Billa, if you want to tell me I am blowing smoke go for it. I won't be the first to receive your blessing and sure won't be the last.

[BillA]

no one needs any test equipment to see that your 'numbers' don't - and won't - match up
- this is about logic and deductive reasoning

I think this stuff might be better suited to some of the more gullible forums

if it talks like a duck, and walks like a duck . . . .
must be [H]ard data 'test' results

testing with a computer system is rather difficult;
you spouted the numbers, up to you to justify them; I do not believe them

the disservice you have done is to Danny, got that ? -> to Danny

I don't give a rat, far be it from me to purge bogus 'tests' from the forums;
only asked 'cause you're posting this junk all over

[DodgeViper]

Yep, just what I thought you would say. Damm I feel so much better now being blessed by BillA.

[BillA]

you might be better off by trying to figure out where the testing problem is,
than congratulating yourself on joining ecu pirate and maskedgeek
they your peers ? (swimming with the big fish now, eh ?)

you have to deal with numbers if you want to 'talk technical'
and you have to be able, and willing, to answer questions

[DodgeViper]

Seems one of your own use the same method for testing his micro block. What would that be? Testing with his computer. WOW....

[DodgeViper]

A quote from Cathar:

As near as I can tell it's 3C better than my Cyclone 5. Buying a new motherboard that reads the on-die diode to test it out properly.

I bet 99 percent of users use their computer to post results. Other than my on-die CPU temps all other temps are collected from my Fluke temp probe, but that would not be good enough for you, would it Mr. BillA?

[pippin88]

But Cathars results are backed up by the theory.

He has also been able to achieve a better max overclock, and hes now got a board that reads the onchip diode. He states a reduction in temp from them.

You can say his testing is comparable to yours but as Bill is trying to point out, where are the reasons for your claimed gains? Why would removing turbulators gain a large amount, and then putting others back in drop more.

If you still have the originals could you please test them and see what results you get?

[MadDogMe]

I don't give a rat, far be it from me to purge bogus 'tests' from the forums;

...

[DodgeViper]

He has also been able to achieve a better max overclock, and hes now got a board that reads the onchip diode. He states a reduction in temp from them.

Hmmm, the last time I read the EPOX 8K3A+ reads from the ONCHIP DIODE. Wow thats the board I have.....

Why would removing turbulators gain a large amount, and then putting others back in drop more.

To remove the restriction the stock turbulators had on the Eheim pump. Replacing the stock turbulators with the copper coils added turbulance without the restriction.

I could care a less if any of you believe what I have posted. Another forum member (nikhsub1) got nearly the same results, using the same W/B, with nearly the same setup, excluding tubing size. CLICK

So I and nikhsub1 are trying to deceive the members correct?

the disservice you have done is to Danny, got that ? -> to Danny

I do beleive Danny has tested the copper coils and are shipping his blocks with the copper coils installed. Considering I shipped Danny enough coils to build 60 blocks. Did not even charge a dime for the coils, even shipped the coils at my expense.....

[gone_fishin]

You shipped him enough for sixty before he even tested them? Look, it happens all the time. Your want for it to be something as you were testing may have made you a bit overanxious. Retest and post your data sets. Ambient air at rad intake, water inlet temps, and cpu load temps (case temps mean nothing). Do so at least three times with three different mountings for each setup, stock with turbulators, no turbs, and your new turbs. That would be a minimum of nine data sets to show people your conclusions. Then perhaps if there is doubt it can be directed at and resolved through your test results in a more civil manner.

BTW your sig shows a 12.8C water delta with a 99watt heatload, very hard to swallow also. Check you water probe placement and use burnK7, also use voltage shown when at full cpu load. 1.95v, as shown in your upper post, is a 94watt heatload and 2.0v is a 98.9watt heatload as shown by computernerd (even lower at benchtest). You must abandon the tendency to fudge

[pippin88]

Originally posted by DodgeViper
Hmmm, the last time I read the EPOX 8K3A+ reads from the ONCHIP DIODE. Wow thats the board I have.....

Did I say you didn't? I stated that because of your uote about he was going to buy a board that reads the Onchip Diode.
The better cooling is also proved somewhat in the increase in max overclock.

Also if you don't care, then why post this stuff at all? Sounds like someone can't accept that people think his improvements arnt as good as he says

[DodgeViper]

pippin88, I posted to help those that have the TC. What anyone else says or does means nothing to me.

GF, I have not updated my SIG nor am I going to take my system down to prove a point with you or anyone else.

GF, Danny had the coils in his hands long before I shipped the sixty sets. Would you like to point out where I mentioned otherwise?

[MeltMan]

Holy crap!

I think its 3-5, hell maybe 10 degrees cooler now! It must have broken up the surface tension of my finger. But then again, I have no accurate measurement of temps to back up my claim.



Pinky up!

[gone_fishin]

Originally posted by DodgeViper
pippin88, I posted to help those that have the TC. What anyone else says or does means nothing to me.

GF, I have not updated my SIG nor am I going to take my system down to prove a point with you or anyone else.

GF, Danny had the coils in his hands long before I shipped the sixty. Would you like to point out where I mentioned otherwise?

Why ask when "What anyone else says or does means nothing to me."

It's up to you to do with your point as you wish, you started the thread.

Thanks for clearing that up as you were unclear of the timing when you mentioned it.

quote "I do beleive Danny has tested the copper coils and are shipping his blocks with the copper coils installed. Considering I shipped Danny enough coils to build 60 blocks. Did not even charge a dime for the coils, even shipped the coils at my expense" end quote

His claims then coincide with yours? Example: coils installed = better performance than no coils installed?

[DodgeViper]

Originally posted by gone_fishin
His claims then coincide with yours? Example: coils installed = better performance than no coils installed?

If you have not taken the time to visit D-Teks website, here is a copy and paste information from D-teks aluminum top TC 4.

This is the new TC-4 Revision 2 equipped with a hard anodized aluminum top and O-ring sealed to provide the option of removal for cleaning. Utilizing additional Ribs in the channels with Copper Turbulator coils to greatly increase water to copper surface area, water velocity and turbulance which makes the pumps flow more efficient. The block is made by very tight tolerances with high attention to fit, finish and a perfect O-ring design seal.

[gone_fishin]

Originally posted by DodgeViper
If you have not taken the time to visit D-Teks website, here is a copy and paste information from D-teks aluminum top TC 4.

This is the new TC-4 Revision 2 equipped with a hard anodized aluminum top and O-ring sealed to provide the option of removal for cleaning. Utilizing additional Ribs in the channels with Copper Turbulator coils to greatly increase water to copper surface area, water velocity and turbulance which makes the pumps flow more efficient. The block is made by very tight tolerances with high attention to fit, finish and a perfect O-ring design seal.

So now they make "the pumps flow more efficient" not the block more efficient? An interesting choice of words.