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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 01-10-2003, 06:26 PM   #1
pippin88
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Default This ones for Bill

Redid case install again.

The res thingo is a 3 tap system.

Im in a hurry so:
www.users.bigpond.net.au/pippin88/case001.jpg
www.users.bigpond.net.au/pippin88/case002.jpg
www.users.bigpond.net.au/pippin88/case003.jpg
www.users.bigpond.net.au/pippin88/case005.jpg

The radiator now has a push/pull fan arrangement too.

Cheers,
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Unread 01-10-2003, 07:01 PM   #2
nOv1c3
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Oops I,m not Bill But i took a peek
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Unread 01-10-2003, 07:32 PM   #3
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ok by me
doesn't look as spiffy, but I'll bet it cools better
change that
cooling depends on many things, I'll bet it flows more (at the least)

you do like those valves, eh
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Unread 01-10-2003, 07:46 PM   #4
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Default Nice...But.....

Sorry I am not bill either but I had to look But I must ask should you not connect the output of the pump directly to the CPU block – The whole Hi/low pressure thing???
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Unread 01-10-2003, 07:50 PM   #5
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hmm... doesn't the turbulence and force go down as you get further from the pump? If joemac is right.. then the cpu, gpu, then radiator, resevoir then back to pump? Wouldn't that be the most efficient configuration?
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Unread 01-10-2003, 07:54 PM   #6
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Yes winewood that is what I was thinking..
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Unread 01-10-2003, 08:22 PM   #7
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Unless there is a leak, the flowrate will be the same throughout the whole loop.

This is fundamental.

All else being equal, it is best to put the radiator before the waterblock. This provides the hottest water at the inlet of the radiator, and the coolest water at the inlet of the block.
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Unread 01-10-2003, 08:33 PM   #8
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From my experience the flow rate and pressure drop as the water flows through the system. Ideally you want fast flow and high pressure in the block and a slow flow rate, low pressure in the radiator.
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Unread 01-10-2003, 08:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by joemac
From my experience the flow rate and pressure drop as the water flows through the system. Ideally you want fast flow and high pressure in the block and a slow flow rate, low pressure in the radiator.
So you believe that water is flowing more slowly into the pump's intake than it is going out the outlet?

If this were the case, the pump would be "making" water.

WRT slower flowrate through the radiator being better, check the attached chart from Lytron.
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Unread 01-10-2003, 08:49 PM   #10
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Bill recommended (THIS) site to me. I think it says what joemac and I are thinking.

It is by "myv65 (Dave Smith)" and I believe this is the best article I have read on pumps and flow rates. It measures temperature as well. Look at the 3rd graphic.

Basically the pump is pulling water into itself faster that water is provided. Therefore there is a change of pressure in the loop.
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Unread 01-10-2003, 08:49 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Since87
So you believe that water is flowing more slowly into the pump's intake than it is going out the outlet?

If this were the case, the pump would be "making" water.

LOL I knew that was coming

Last edited by joemac; 01-10-2003 at 09:23 PM.
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Unread 01-10-2003, 09:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by winewood
Bill recommended (THIS) site to me. I think it says what joemac and I are thinking.

It is by "myv65 (Dave Smith)" and I believe this is the best article I have read on pumps and flow rates. It measures temperature as well. Look at the 3rd graphic.

Basically the pump is pulling water into itself faster that water is provided. Therefore there is a change of pressure in the loop.
It is an excellent article. However, it is an article about pump issues. While the pump issues need to be considered in the overall design of the system, the effect of flowrate on radiator effectiveness can be considered in isolation from the pump. (As shown in the Lytron charts.)

Perhaps some study of the phrase "incompressible fluid" would be in order.
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Unread 01-10-2003, 09:11 PM   #13
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what the heck am I looking at?

A space age res?!
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Unread 01-10-2003, 09:31 PM   #14
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Its not a matter of being compressable. In an open ended system (access to different atmospheric pressures and not a vaccum). Take into effect.. If you were to have an open resevoir then turn the pump on.. the fluid level would go down using that pump. (If you had a close ended system full of water, the fluid wouldnt flow) As the water exits the loop into the open resevoir, the the vaccum of pulling is broken. The water is then at atmosheric pressure. Then it is sucked into the pump again increasing the pressure and this pressure goes down is it gets closer to outside atmopheric pressure.

I believe this is what Dave Smith was showing in his graph. But, I could be wrong.

pippen88's resevoir doens't seem to be a closed end system from the pics.

and mfpmax... I will tell you what you are looking at if you tell me what number I am thinking of. LOL
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Unread 01-11-2003, 09:46 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by winewood
Take into effect.. If you were to have an open resevoir then turn the pump on.. the fluid level would go down using that pump.
I'm not sure I'm following your logic.

Do you believe that in the system pictured below, that the average water level in the reservoir will be lower if the pump is on, than when it's off?

If so, where does the water (that's missing from the top of the reservoir) go when the pump is on?
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Unread 01-11-2003, 12:15 PM   #16
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I believe Winewood was referring to this:
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Unread 01-11-2003, 12:38 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by winewood

and mfpmax... I will tell you what you are looking at if you tell me what number I am thinking of. LOL
3.14480274837298374928734982374928723
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Unread 01-11-2003, 12:40 PM   #18
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You may be right Ben. That would make sense.

The flowrate through each component is still the same though.
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Unread 01-11-2003, 12:48 PM   #19
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Flow rate: yes
Flow speed: no
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Unread 01-11-2003, 01:10 PM   #20
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huh ?

the res level would go down because the empty return line(s), having drained (?), would fill up again ??

so what ?

or is it the low modulus hose exapanding under pressure suggesting a volume change ?
- this can be easily calculated, ain't much

what on earth are you guys talking about ?
and what is the difference between those 2 dwgs ?

"access to different atmospheric pressures" ?????
as related to time or location ?
gimmie a break

and the relationship between:
Flow rate: yes
Flow speed: no
and the level in the vented res is: ?

Confusion is King today !
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Unread 01-11-2003, 01:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by unregistered

and what is the difference between those 2 dwgs ?
The level of the water in the reservoir.

I knew you were going to catch me on the modulus of the hoses.
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Unread 01-11-2003, 01:23 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by unregistered
huh ?


Confusion is King today !
Pretty much the same most days Bill
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Unread 01-11-2003, 01:45 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by winewood
Bill recommended (THIS) site to me. I think it says what joemac and I are thinking.

It is by "myv65 (Dave Smith)" and I believe this is the best article I have read on pumps and flow rates. It measures temperature as well. Look at the 3rd graphic.

Basically the pump is pulling water into itself faster that water is provided. Therefore there is a change of pressure in the loop.
All right, to clear this up...

Winewood meant that the pump is pulling water into itself faster (i.e. at a higher flow speed, not flow rate) than water is provided.

Of course that was a typo as well. He should have written:
The pump inlet pressure is lower than the pump outlet pressure (that's what a pump does!). Since the relative pressure at the pump inlet is low, the coolant must be flowing slower (lower flow speed, not lower flow rate) than at the outlet.

Which of course isn't necessarily true. In fact, because the pump inlet has a pressure that is lower than atmospheric, suggests a restricted inlet.

None of this has anything to do with a res... but the level of coolant explanation refers to a res where the res inlet is located below the res outlet, which of course no one would do.

The flow rate remains the same throughout each component, in a simple loop. The flow speed however will vary with the diameter of a particular point in the same loop. Since pressure is directly proportional to flow speed, it should be easy to visualize that a narrow opening will create a "pressure point", aka a flow restriction, within a loop. Hence:
Flow rate: yes
Flow speed: no
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Unread 01-11-2003, 02:30 PM   #24
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now I very much like that third graphic in Dave's article,
but he proved (again) the maxim that comprehension is inversely related to complexity

I am not Job, lets hope Dave drops by
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Unread 01-11-2003, 03:27 PM   #25
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I agree. Thanks for the help bigben2k.

and mfpmax you guessed it right! As I fattening geek, pie is always on my mind. MMMMMM PIE. Its the only number I know in which is directly related to food. And, yes you were looking at a space age resevoir. It was made after 1969.
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