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Water Block Design / Construction Building your own block? Need info on designing one? Heres where to do it |
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06-25-2003, 12:04 PM | #226 | |
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06-25-2003, 12:51 PM | #227 | ||||
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Bob
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06-25-2003, 01:03 PM | #228 | |
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#2 isn't really relevant, it just applies to the design, as needed. #3 again, only if the design calls for it. Otherwise, the product's appeal would be both function and form, and would be a high-end product, and that's a pretty small audience. #4 Now there's something I've explored before (aka running the water in a circular motion), but gave it up when I realized that the cold water molecules would be thrown outside of a circumference, because of their higher density, and I didn't have (couldn't figure out) any way of taking advantage of that. The twisterbong itself can't be applied directly to a waterblock, because of the air involved. There's also the issue of added heat, from the stirring action required to force the water to run in a circular motion. I think it's clear that it comes down to reducing the thermal resistance, and with water, that means throwing it into turbulence. Since we can't do it with sheer pumping action, we're down to turbulators and/or jet inpingement. This is where I'm stuck. Either there's another (third or fourth) way to get turbulence, or there's something radically different out there than what we've been thinking, to reduce that thermal resistance, between the copper baseplate, and the water.:shrug: You know, there's another part of this that's so significant, that it might be worth approaching again: the TIM joint is now a very significant part of the temp difference, between the CPU and air temp. As Cathar recently wrote in AMDMB's forums, it's ~70% of the whole temperature gradient. It's also detailed in the OCAU thread. |
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06-25-2003, 01:08 PM | #229 | |
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GTA's #4 lol. If you accomplish such a thing then get one of them micro spy cams to go along with it and usb it out to the monitor. Now that would be eyecandy. |
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06-25-2003, 01:13 PM | #230 | |
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A radical approach would be to incorporate an actuator in the block itself. There are other considerations though. The cycling would wreak havoc on a paste style tim. |
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06-25-2003, 01:26 PM | #231 |
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I have a couple of ideas (probably useless)
Can a middle plate be made out of brass/al/copper (whichever expands most) and then heat it up and inser the eyelets or copper capillery tubing (after being frozen)? (shrinkfitting I think it's called). I don't know wheter you'll find this kind of tubing though. Can capillery tubing made out of acrylic (like the ones used in chemistry labs for small samples) be used by manually cutting and pasting into the middle piece?
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06-25-2003, 01:36 PM | #232 | |
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We might as well look into the pumps too: a propeller, in line with a straight tube section might be more efficient, but I digress... Maybe we could tweak the jet inpingement, by inserting a needle point into the small tube: it might help reduce the wide spreading of the inpingement area. (Borrowed from LeeJSmith's thread, who's been doing excellent work, BTW): |
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06-25-2003, 01:39 PM | #233 | |
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I like the idea of using glass microtubes. Anything that's got a smooth surface inside might help: the drilling process leaves a restrictive mess, but probably not relevant here, because the flow is laminar. |
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06-25-2003, 07:23 PM | #234 | |
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06-25-2003, 07:27 PM | #235 | |
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06-25-2003, 07:36 PM | #236 |
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I wouldn't throw off #4 as an idea just yet.
It ties in with the turbulence idea. Think twister+pin heatsink over the core+method of water removal to give a semi closed loop. Okay, we're not talking super performance, but it would look AWESOME In my opinion, its an idea to be taken further. |
06-25-2003, 07:41 PM | #237 | |
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As you mention, okay, maybe not for the cup/straw design, but does the thought of pre-turbulence allow for other designs that way perform well, given that the furniture inside the block does not have to actually create the turbulence itself? These were not really meant as ideas to improve the Cascade, more as suggestions on possible avenues of thought on where we go next. Lastly, to Cathar, was Dtek releasing their WW a factor in getting this block to the market quickly? |
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06-25-2003, 08:32 PM | #238 | |
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Spent quite a deal of money playing with the Hydra micro-channel GPU blocks, and could not get a way to machine them cheaply with the limited setup funds I had. Accrued some largish bills along the way. Releasing the Cascade design became a financial necessity for me. Ideally I would've held onto it for a little longer, but I've got bills to pay, and a family to support with another child on the way, and a mortgage, and my machinists were getting antsy about when I was going to either deliver them some real business other than prototyping, or when I was going to cough up the bills and piss off and stop wasting their time. I guess that's the unglamorous side of the game eh? Whether you buy all the tools yourself, or you emply some professionals to do the job for you, it the end it all comes down to needing the funds to do the research. Still, I wouldn't say I rushed the block though. I took as much time as was needed and put a few hundred hours of research into it once I really started focussing on it. Up until 3 weeks ago I would say that even then I was still undecided as to whether to not I'd make them up, and would've just paid the machinists off out of my own money over time. |
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06-25-2003, 08:34 PM | #239 |
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You hired someone to make the blocks for you?
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06-25-2003, 08:35 PM | #240 |
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The pre-turbulence you mention would have to be induced, not pumped, and I'm afraid it would only help in distorting, and spreading the inpingement area further, which would reduce performance.
This design was created specifically for low flow rates. I'd still love to experiment with the needle, perhaps on a larger scale, to try to straighten up that jet. Oh to have a workshop, how wonderful it must be |
06-25-2003, 08:39 PM | #241 | |
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06-25-2003, 08:41 PM | #242 |
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Hmmm...so do I . Seems like a good idea to hire someone. How much does it cost to have someone do it?
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06-25-2003, 08:54 PM | #243 | |
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Prototyping a single block is anywhere from $50-$300 US depending on the complexity of the design and CNC programming involved, and then on the resultant machine time. Each Cascade prototype variant was costing a few hundred dollars US to make up, and that's only because the machinists were being nice due to our prior working relationship. To walk off the street unknown and ask for a Cascade prototype to be made up would be more like $500US, per variant. If you know someone who's willing to do it for you for cheap, and you can draw it all up in CAD, you might save a few hundred dollars. If you ask for more than one or two, then the prices come down. Ask for one hundred and the setup prices get amortised pretty well and it just becomes a matter of paying for parts, machine time and labour. It's the setup time (also called "tooling costs") which is the big hit. |
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06-25-2003, 08:55 PM | #244 |
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WoW thats so pricey. $500 for a perfectly done block. One more question, did you sell your WW idea to D-tek or did you "donate" it?
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06-25-2003, 09:10 PM | #245 | |
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DTek's and my relationship is private, suffice to say that the White Water design was not "donated". |
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06-25-2003, 09:11 PM | #246 | |
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06-25-2003, 09:17 PM | #247 | |
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Just doing a some rough assumptions, and going on my past experiences, maybe $400US or so to get a professional shop to make it up for you as a one-off. |
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06-25-2003, 09:22 PM | #248 |
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No its not finalized now. But it will be soon. I haven't got it drawn up fully. Still waiting for some 3D drawing help (thanks utabintarbo.) Have some more basic things to fix but then I'll be done.
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06-26-2003, 09:41 AM | #249 | ||
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Ok, for those who missed it, I pulled (and I mean "painfully extracted") a bit of relevant info, from the OCAU thread:
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06-26-2003, 10:21 AM | #250 |
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Exclusive?
Hi Cathar,
Is your relationship with DTEK exclusive or are you open to producing variants of the WW block you created? Looks like I might have missed a great opportunity if its an exclusive. I would hope that you make a great profit from the time you spent designing the block. I really am looking to get deep into watercooling since I think the timing is right. Do you think you can produce a lower cost, one inlet one outlet design? What do you think about silver plating a block? (I know a factory that can do silver plating very inexpensively) I would like to take watercooling products (all in one unit(s) and waterblocks) to the mainstream; something that could be used by Dell or Gateway and something an enthusiast would be happy having in his system. Andrew |
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