Design improvements

grassi3000 · 09-07-2003, 01:54 PM

Hi,

In the near future my waterblock will be drilled. The current design looks like this:

Unfortunately I have to redraw the plans because I can't convert it into the cnc format due to a program error) and so i thought about doing some Improvements.

This blocks measures are ~ 60 x 40 mm

the bp is between 2 and 4 mm thick.

There are 7 1mm jets in the inlet.

Does anybody of you know some Improvements? (I want to keep the basic idea of the U shape, but I'm also thinking of resizing this thing , e.g 50 x 50 mms)

This block should fit a P4 and an Athlon by different mounting holes in the cover.

Thanks for your help

bigben2k · 09-07-2003, 04:32 PM

That looks familiar!

There's still a few unecessary elements in it, for cooling a CPU, but if you want to leave the option out for a pelt, then it's fine.

How are you going to seal the top? RTV?

grassi3000 · 09-08-2003, 07:05 AM

I'll take an O-Ring. (whats RTV?

?)

So you don't know about some improvements. I'm thinking of enlarging the block
(unfortunately it's not possible to make larger tubing....)

What elements are unnecessary in your opinion (currently im no pelt user, but that might change

)

bigben2k · 09-08-2003, 09:22 AM

The "U" is somewhat important (see below). The rest of the obstructions that you have don't do anything to help the cooling, because they don't act as fins: they're too far from the heat source. So what they do is restric flow, that's all.

If you're going for multiple jets (7 jets?) then the "U" shape isn't needed at all, except for the structure, i.e. making sure that the top doesn't collapse, and/or that the baseplate of the block doesn't bend under the mounting pressure.

So if you remove that "U" and replace it with 4 small posts, you might be better off. You can either mill those posts, or you can solder them on, it doesn't matter.

It's also an opportunity for you to reduce your machining time. You might consider building this block in 3 layers:
1-the baseplate (copper)
2-the outside wall (acrylic/polycarbonate,...)
3-the top (also plastic)

and bolt it all together, with RTV (a silicone sealer).

grassi3000 · 09-08-2003, 12:49 PM

Well, I thought about the "U" shape, because otherwise the water will take the shortest way to the outlet (in my opinion). because of the "U" it will be forced to flow through the whole wb, and not only the direct way

(like pic below, blue cold flowing water, red the water that is warmer than the rest, because it isn't in the direction of the flow)

Because of this thought, I have also implemented the obstructions.

Maybe my thoughts go into the wrong direction.

So you say, that I should only keep the U shape, and throw all the other obstructions away?

even the quad like samples, that are ony 1mm deep ( I have thought that they would make the water swirl a little bit; a friend said this would be good to)

I have also thought to replace these samples with drill holes, 1mm diameter and 1 mm deep.

bigben2k · 09-08-2003, 01:13 PM

Yeah, do away with them.

This added turbulence that you mentionned, isn't over in an area that will put any significant amount of heat into the water, so it's better to optimize that outside area for flow, giving your jets that little extra pressure.

In fact, if you do go with jets, you can do away with the whole "U", but you'll have to replace it with some kind of support, to hold the top.

grassi3000 · 09-08-2003, 01:18 PM

An shall i leave the bp exept below the jets flat, or shall i do some drilling left an right of the U to have some swirls?

(without the U, it would be a smaller cascade and not my idea

)

bigben2k · 09-08-2003, 01:29 PM

Anything that you do outside of a central 15mm by 15mm square, is irrelevant.

grassi3000 · 09-08-2003, 01:31 PM

I've also thought about your idea of having three layers, but more like the cascade.

So I thought about the cooper base (with the layout like discussed) and two layers of acrylic. The top layer will have the holes for mounting it on the mainboard and the inlet and outlet.

the second layer will be of acrylic too. under the inlet there is an open box with more jets than 7.

How thick should these two acrylic layers be, in order not to break and to seal properly.

I thought about having two o-rings like the cascade.....

please don't take the dimensions of the pic for granted

bigben2k · 09-08-2003, 01:34 PM

Acrylic: 1/2" thick

Polycarbonate: 1/4" thick.

grassi3000 · 09-08-2003, 01:37 PM

Thanks....

So I'm going to start redrawing my block

It will be an "Omega" Cascade

grassi3000 · 09-08-2003, 03:03 PM

So these are the three parts, i constructed during the last hour.

the materials in order from above

acrylic 12mm
acrylic 12mm
copper 5mm (cups- 1mm) thick

What do you think about them?

bigben2k · 09-08-2003, 05:10 PM

Nice. Very nice.

Pritorian · 09-08-2003, 06:24 PM

i must say, DITTO!

But do you really need the two parts of Acryl 12mm thick, or is i just too be on the safe side?

winewood · 09-08-2003, 10:39 PM

It seems that the originality is usually eliminated as people funnel others toward designs that are "tried and true". I frankly would like to see the 1st design attempted minus a tweak or two. Not to say dont help.. just lets allow some creativty and unique blocks to come about...

jaydee · 09-08-2003, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by winewood
It seems that the originality is usually eliminated as people funnel others toward designs that are "tried and true". I frankly would like to see the 1st design attempted minus a tweak or two. Not to say dont help.. just lets allow some creativty and unique blocks to come about...

What he said.

bigben2k · 09-08-2003, 11:13 PM

Yeah, but look at that first design, and picture how much CNC time (and tooling) would be required to make it. Then look at the last variation, and notice how much simpler it is.

I just hate to see a guy put so much effort into something that doesn't need all that fancy extra. There's a fine line between taking pride in one's work, and putting too much time in it. (Did I say that?

)

jaydee · 09-08-2003, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
Yeah, but look at that first design, and picture how much CNC time (and tooling) would be required to make it. Then look at the last variation, and notice how much simpler it is.

I just hate to see a guy put so much effort into something that doesn't need all that fancy extra. There's a fine line between taking pride in one's work, and putting too much time in it. (Did I say that? )

Bah! I would just like to see it done. Screw practicality!

Sure it is one of the most severly flawed designs I have seen in a while but I would sure like to see someone try and mill that beast.

grassi3000 · 09-09-2003, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pritorian
But do you really need the two parts of Acryl 12mm thick, or is i just too be on the safe side?

They're that big, because I want to be on the safe side. It's my first waterblock, and as for that I don't want to have a waterblock with a cover that breaks when I mount it because the material doesn't cope with all that preassure.

Because this is my first waterblock I every constructed I decided to "copy" some design elements because primary I want a waterblock that performs well. I don't have a collection of blocks at home from wich I can choose if this one is performing bad.

Another reason is that I think the 7 Jets of my original design are too less, also if I use a Eheim 1250, and this is what I have in mind. Maybe I'll change the design of the copper part a little bit into the original design. I'm thinking of putting the "obstacles" ,like bigben2k called them, back into the design, but they should have the function of fins. What dimensions should they have? 1mm / 2mm thickness? should they reach the 2nd layer of my wb, like the "U" does, or should they only be half the height of the "U", say 1mm /1.5mm?

Edit: I'm also thinking of making the second layer half the height, because there isn't so much pressure on it, like on the top cover with the mounting holes. Are 6mm of this layer enough even if it is of acrylic?

grassi3000 · 09-09-2003, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by winewood
I frankly would like to see the 1st design attempted minus a tweak or two.

What would you say that I should throw away of the first design?
I'm open to every opinion

bigben2k · 09-09-2003, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
Bah! I would just like to see it done. Screw practicality! Sure it is one of the most severly flawed designs I have seen in a while but I would sure like to see someone try and mill that beast.

LOL!

Grassi3000: I agree: if you're going to use a 1250, you can use more than 7 jets: a good block designer always keeps the pump in mind.

grassi3000 · 09-09-2003, 10:52 AM

So as written above, I'm thinking of putting some fins into the design. See the pic below. The red lines should be 1mm high, the blue lines 1mm deep so between the red and the blue line there will be a difference of 2mm height.

Milling time is not a big problem because the CNC will do this over night.....

Would these fins be contraproductive, or will the increase performance?
Edit: sorry, i forgot the blue lines in the lower right part

bigben2k · 09-09-2003, 11:03 AM

It's outside of the 15 by 15 mm center area, so it's not going to do anything.

Your choice.

winewood · 09-09-2003, 11:42 AM

Water would just flow around them.. not through them. I kinda liked the bumps on the bottom, they added surface area and turbulence. Just a thought.

grassi3000 · 09-09-2003, 11:59 AM

So you mean something more like this?

09-07-2003, 01:54 PM	#1
grassi3000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Austria Posts: 46	Design improvements (edit: pics of the milled blocks) Hi, In the near future my waterblock will be drilled. The current design looks like this: Unfortunately I have to redraw the plans because I can't convert it into the cnc format due to a program error) and so i thought about doing some Improvements. This blocks measures are ~ 60 x 40 mm the bp is between 2 and 4 mm thick. There are 7 1mm jets in the inlet. Does anybody of you know some Improvements? (I want to keep the basic idea of the U shape, but I'm also thinking of resizing this thing , e.g 50 x 50 mms) This block should fit a P4 and an Athlon by different mounting holes in the cover. Thanks for your help __________________ P4 2,53 @ 3,02 \| 1 GB Infineon DDR 333 \| Chaintech Apogee 9ejl2 \| Radeon 9500 Pro @ 370 / 330 46xx 3dmarks2k3 Last edited by grassi3000; 10-31-2003 at 11:33 AM.

09-07-2003, 04:32 PM	#2
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	That looks familiar! There's still a few unecessary elements in it, for cooling a CPU, but if you want to leave the option out for a pelt, then it's fine. How are you going to seal the top? RTV? __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

09-08-2003, 07:05 AM	#3
grassi3000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Austria Posts: 46	I'll take an O-Ring. (whats RTV? ?) So you don't know about some improvements. I'm thinking of enlarging the block (unfortunately it's not possible to make larger tubing....) What elements are unnecessary in your opinion (currently im no pelt user, but that might change ) __________________ P4 2,53 @ 3,02 \| 1 GB Infineon DDR 333 \| Chaintech Apogee 9ejl2 \| Radeon 9500 Pro @ 370 / 330 46xx 3dmarks2k3

09-08-2003, 09:22 AM	#4
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	The "U" is somewhat important (see below). The rest of the obstructions that you have don't do anything to help the cooling, because they don't act as fins: they're too far from the heat source. So what they do is restric flow, that's all. If you're going for multiple jets (7 jets?) then the "U" shape isn't needed at all, except for the structure, i.e. making sure that the top doesn't collapse, and/or that the baseplate of the block doesn't bend under the mounting pressure. So if you remove that "U" and replace it with 4 small posts, you might be better off. You can either mill those posts, or you can solder them on, it doesn't matter. It's also an opportunity for you to reduce your machining time. You might consider building this block in 3 layers: 1-the baseplate (copper) 2-the outside wall (acrylic/polycarbonate,...) 3-the top (also plastic) and bolt it all together, with RTV (a silicone sealer). __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

09-08-2003, 01:13 PM	#6
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Yeah, do away with them. This added turbulence that you mentionned, isn't over in an area that will put any significant amount of heat into the water, so it's better to optimize that outside area for flow, giving your jets that little extra pressure. In fact, if you do go with jets, you can do away with the whole "U", but you'll have to replace it with some kind of support, to hold the top. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

09-08-2003, 01:18 PM	#7
grassi3000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Austria Posts: 46	An shall i leave the bp exept below the jets flat, or shall i do some drilling left an right of the U to have some swirls? (without the U, it would be a smaller cascade and not my idea ) __________________ P4 2,53 @ 3,02 \| 1 GB Infineon DDR 333 \| Chaintech Apogee 9ejl2 \| Radeon 9500 Pro @ 370 / 330 46xx 3dmarks2k3

09-08-2003, 01:29 PM	#8
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Anything that you do outside of a central 15mm by 15mm square, is irrelevant. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

09-08-2003, 01:34 PM	#10
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Acrylic: 1/2" thick Polycarbonate: 1/4" thick. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

09-08-2003, 01:37 PM	#11
grassi3000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Austria Posts: 46	Thanks.... So I'm going to start redrawing my block It will be an "Omega" Cascade __________________ P4 2,53 @ 3,02 \| 1 GB Infineon DDR 333 \| Chaintech Apogee 9ejl2 \| Radeon 9500 Pro @ 370 / 330 46xx 3dmarks2k3

09-08-2003, 05:10 PM	#13
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Nice. Very nice. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

09-08-2003, 06:24 PM	#14
Pritorian Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 201	i must say, DITTO! But do you really need the two parts of Acryl 12mm thick, or is i just too be on the safe side? __________________ Boo!

09-08-2003, 10:39 PM	#15
winewood Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: in my chair Posts: 574	It seems that the originality is usually eliminated as people funnel others toward designs that are "tried and true". I frankly would like to see the 1st design attempted minus a tweak or two. Not to say dont help.. just lets allow some creativty and unique blocks to come about... __________________ -winewood-

09-08-2003, 11:13 PM	#17
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Yeah, but look at that first design, and picture how much CNC time (and tooling) would be required to make it. Then look at the last variation, and notice how much simpler it is. I just hate to see a guy put so much effort into something that doesn't need all that fancy extra. There's a fine line between taking pride in one's work, and putting too much time in it. (Did I say that? ) __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

09-09-2003, 11:03 AM	#23
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	It's outside of the 15 by 15 mm center area, so it's not going to do anything. Your choice. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

09-09-2003, 11:42 AM	#24
winewood Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: in my chair Posts: 574	Water would just flow around them.. not through them. I kinda liked the bumps on the bottom, they added surface area and turbulence. Just a thought. __________________ -winewood-

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