Go Back   Pro/Forums > ProCooling Technical Discussions > General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion > Water Block Design / Construction
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar JavaChat Mark Forums Read

Water Block Design / Construction Building your own block? Need info on designing one? Heres where to do it

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 10-20-2003, 11:05 PM   #1
DigitalPirate
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: A basement room
Posts: 22
Default Improved heatsink material

Was surfing today, found an interesting site, http://www.heathru.com/
What do you think of this. Assuming we can get some, assuming it's already in production, etc...
I think this could give us some very interesting new waterblock and heatsink designs. Much bigger heat bloom within the block, more surface area to circulate with. I emailed the company, asking for a sample, if I get it, I'll pass it on.
DigitalPirate is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-21-2003, 04:19 PM   #2
Dunno
Cooling Neophyte
 
Dunno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: South Africa
Posts: 82
Default

Excelent find there DigitalPirate

I live in Kimberley South africa. The diamond capitol of SA, which means that its easy to get industrial diamond powder. A friend of mine has a small furnace... I wonder what one would get if you mixed diamond powder with copper or even better; silver!?

The mixture would have to be runny enough to still cast as I would hate to try and machine this stuff!

Imagine making a cascade out of that!
Dunno is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-21-2003, 05:03 PM   #3
aBo
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Finland
Posts: 18
Default

"SAMPLES AVAILABLE, INQUIRE USING OUR CONTACT FORM"

Wouldn't that be the cue to people like Cathar and BillA to get samples to verify these claims?-) The idea sounds good but only future will show is this another carbon black thermal paste or something valid =)...
aBo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-21-2003, 05:52 PM   #4
Boli
Cooling Savant
 
Boli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Blackburn / Dundee
Posts: 451
Default

Been discussed elsewhere, (on another site) a diamond plate which are talking about costs about $1000 and you'll need a laser to cut into it.

Plus mixing metals/componants for better thermal conductivity gnerally results in a worse material than one you started out with.

Hardly a viable comercial solution.

~ Boli
__________________
1800+ @ 2247 (214x10.5) - STABLE, 512MB PC3700 TwinX Cosair RAM, NF7-S v2.0, GeForce3 Ti200
Parallel BIM, 120.1 Thermochill, Eheim 1048, Maze 3, Maze4 GPU, "Z" chipset, 1/2" tubing, PC-70: 5x120mm & 9x80mm fans.
Internet Server & second machine (folding 24/7): 512MB DDR RAM, XP2000+

Last edited by Boli; 10-22-2003 at 01:27 AM.
Boli is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-21-2003, 06:18 PM   #5
jaydee
Put up or Shut Up
 
jaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,504
Default

Quote:
HeaThru is a revolutionary diamond/copper composite with extremely high thermal conductivity and semiconductor-compatible thermal expansion properties for use within the IC thermal management industry.
I havn't seen a composite of diamond and copper before. Heard plenty of yapping about plating and a solid diamond, but nothing like this.

They claim:

Quote:
currently up to over 3 mm in thickness, 50 mm diameter wafers with 90 mm diameter wafers available in the near future.
Which is not good for water blocks nore heat sinks. 3mm thick is useless for CPU heatsinks and near usless for water blocks. I don;t see anything saying it can be milled easily? And what is the "real" cost of it? Surely not cheap...

Also:
Quote:
Metallization; HeaThru can be metallized for direct bonding with heat pipes, heat sinks or even the chip die
Maybe AMD and Intel could use this for a heat spreader!
Attached Images
File Type: gif diacugraph.gif (2.8 KB, 197 views)
jaydee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-21-2003, 07:51 PM   #6
Cathar
Thermophile
 
Cathar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by jaydee116
3mm thick is useless for CPU heatsinks and near usless for water blocks.
I have a Cascade prototype here made out of 3mm thick copper (started off as 1/8" thick, but fly-cut and lapped back to 3mm).

It works pretty well considering, being in-between a White Water and regular Cascade. Makes for a very light water-block.

Wouldn't to go much thinner though as base-flex may become a real issue.

Yeah, I could make a Cascade out of it (3mm thick). I'd be surprised though if the thinness and the penalties associated with that (more to do with jet stand-off distances), coupled with the benefit of increased thermal conductivity resulted in something was better than an SS though.

jaydee is correct is that score I guess. While one could still make a block with it, it would be hard to make a block with it that's good enough to show the material in its best light.
Cathar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-21-2003, 08:31 PM   #7
jaydee
Put up or Shut Up
 
jaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,504
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Cathar
I have a Cascade prototype here made out of 3mm thick copper (started off as 1/8" thick, but fly-cut and lapped back to 3mm).

It works pretty well considering, being in-between a White Water and regular Cascade. Makes for a very light water-block.

Wouldn't to go much thinner though as base-flex may become a real issue.

Yeah, I could make a Cascade out of it (3mm thick). I'd be surprised though if the thinness and the penalties associated with that (more to do with jet stand-off distances), coupled with the benefit of increased thermal conductivity resulted in something was better than an SS though.

jaydee is correct is that score I guess. While one could still make a block with it, it would be hard to make a block with it that's good enough to show the material in its best light.
That's why I said "near" usless for water blocks. I made some 1/8" bases and they work ok but I don't see anything in terms of strength from this product. Is is brittle? Is it strong? etc.... Also still see nothing in terms of machinability. If it has diamond in it I imagine it will eat up and spit out endmills. Everything I see on that site indicates it is ment to be a "heat spreader" not a heat sink. Thats what my comment about AMD and Intel using it for a heat spreader was about as they say it can be bonded to IC's (which I think means it can be bonded to the die of the cpu?).

Also note they seem to be making quick advances with this technology. This could just be the tip of the iceburg. I wonder if in the future this stuff could be molded in to shapes?!?!?
jaydee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-21-2003, 08:54 PM   #8
DigitalPirate
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: A basement room
Posts: 22
Default

Wow, I didn't expect this much response when I posted. I just threw the address out and expected to see one "Gee, isn't that nice..." Still, If one could bond a pillar or some predesigned shape directly to the die, and maybe drop a few C off the chip temps, one might be able to design waterblocks to take advantage of this extra heat spreading. Or Intel could give their chips a three-dimensional shape, allowing more heat dissipation by the inclusion of 4 more sides. I for one would rather see that than a 0.06% size reduction in die size. I'd bet this material could be press-molded into the desired shape, if it's merely a suspension of diamond in copper. Metals are generally disordered molecularly, aren't they? I can never remember.
DigitalPirate is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-21-2003, 09:45 PM   #9
nicozeg
Cooling Savant
 
nicozeg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Santiago, Chile
Posts: 403
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by jaydee116
I wonder if in the future this stuff could be molded in to shapes?!?!?
From the PDF brochure:
Quote:
Announcing HeaThru a breakthrough sintered product line made of copper and diamond!
Sintered means a powder compressed into solid state, a process suitable for molding. This stuff seems promising, only drawback is that not very practical on a DIY level.

Last edited by nicozeg; 10-21-2003 at 09:55 PM.
nicozeg is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-21-2003, 09:53 PM   #10
jaydee
Put up or Shut Up
 
jaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,504
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by nicozeg
From the PDF brochure:


Sintered means a power compressed into solid state, a process suitable for molding. This stuff seems promising, only drawback is that not very practical on a DIY level.
Good input. Also not very practicle for DIY now, but in the future this may take off or something like it and be much more common and much more used which means MUCH lower prices. Going to be an interesting next 50 years...
jaydee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-21-2003, 10:00 PM   #11
nicozeg
Cooling Savant
 
nicozeg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Santiago, Chile
Posts: 403
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by jaydee116
Going to be an interesting next 50 years...
Heh, that smells like two old mans speaking in their youth about the possibilities of aluminium.
nicozeg is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-21-2003, 11:46 PM   #12
Zymrgy
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 96
Default

machining the stuff would be a total nightmare. The only concievable thing that I could think of would be a cascade style block...EDM'ing the holes.
Zymrgy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-22-2003, 01:32 AM   #13
Boli
Cooling Savant
 
Boli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Blackburn / Dundee
Posts: 451
Default

As I said before there have been some attempt to make water blocks with a diamond composite baseplate but they needed to use a high powered laser to actually cut the thing... here is the link I talked about, might be relavent:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...hlight=diamond

~ Boli
__________________
1800+ @ 2247 (214x10.5) - STABLE, 512MB PC3700 TwinX Cosair RAM, NF7-S v2.0, GeForce3 Ti200
Parallel BIM, 120.1 Thermochill, Eheim 1048, Maze 3, Maze4 GPU, "Z" chipset, 1/2" tubing, PC-70: 5x120mm & 9x80mm fans.
Internet Server & second machine (folding 24/7): 512MB DDR RAM, XP2000+
Boli is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-22-2003, 10:26 AM   #14
jaydee
Put up or Shut Up
 
jaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,504
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Boli
As I said before there have been some attempt to make water blocks with a diamond composite baseplate but they needed to use a high powered laser to actually cut the thing... here is the link I talked about, might be relavent:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...hlight=diamond

~ Boli
High powered lasers are going to be pretty common soon. Will not be a big deal. Hell there is 2 places in this small city with metal cutting lasers already. Not like this stuff will be very available to DIY anytime soon anyway. By the time it is there will be tools to deal with it.
jaydee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-22-2003, 10:40 AM   #15
DigitalPirate
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: A basement room
Posts: 22
Default

I'm no expert on the bonding technology used for these materials, but the plate they spoke of is actually bonded carbide, not diamond. The plate conductivity would have been weakened by the use of pure diamond, seeing as a crystalline structure invariably has gaps through which heat may not move. We've known that a highly compressed structure is best for transferring heat, what with the atoms being closer to one another. While copper is metallic, and thus really a frozen liquid at room temperature, with a jumbled up molecular structure; diamond is an ordered crystal, with intermolecular gaps. I spoke with a chemistry professor to get this info. He told me that just because the diamond was compressed carbon, did not mean that it would behave the same as carbon. I also asked about the bonding technology, but he couldn't explain it so I would understand.
DigitalPirate is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-22-2003, 10:53 AM   #16
iceheart
Cooling Savant
 
iceheart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Yonder
Posts: 318
Default

http://www.heathru.com/products.asp

I like how they took a screenshot of excel to get that graph but managed to forget the fact that "DiaCu" isn't in the standard Microsoft dictionary...
__________________
"If the majority is smarter than you, does that make everyone else a geek, or does it make you retarded?"
- pHaestus
iceheart is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-22-2003, 11:03 AM   #17
8-Ball
Cooling Savant
 
8-Ball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Oxford University, UK
Posts: 452
Default

I'd be very interested to speak to this chemistry teacher.

To say that;

"copper is metallic, and thus really a frozen liquid at room temperature, with a jumbled up molecular structure"

Is a bit off the mark.

Copper is crystalline and ordered. It follows a face centered cubic close packed pattern. The difference between copper and diamond is the type of bonding between adjacent atoms, as well as the crystal structure.

The reason diamond has a far superior conductivity is because the carbon atoms are bonded covalently. Covalent bonds are rigid and can transfer phonons (atomic scale vibrations) with great ease.

The reason why a copper diamond composite is used is to allow the formation of various shapes. It is also much easier to produce regular diamond particles than a large solid diamond with few flaws.

By sintering the diamond particles with powdered copper, it will form a suspension of diamond particles in a copper matrix. If the mixture is right, then the copper will be sufficient to fill the gaps between the particles, providing both strength and a thermal interface, while not separating the diamond particles to any great degree.

8-ball
__________________
For those who believe that water needs to travel slowly through the radiator for optimum performance, read the following thread.

READ ALL OF THIS!!!!
8-Ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-22-2003, 10:45 PM   #18
JFettig
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Willmar MN/Fargo ND
Posts: 504
Default

sweet! thanx for the link and information! I really appreciate it, now to see if I can get ahold of some of this stuff

Luckily I can probably gain access to this lazer in town, it can cut 1" steel the thing is 64ft long and about 12ft wide I watched it cut some of that 1" steel, pretty freaking nuts!

In my request, I asked them about machinability. lets hope it can be milled, I bet by the time I get some of this stuff my cnc will be finished


Jon
JFettig is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(C) 2005 ProCooling.com
If we in some way offend you, insult you or your people, screw your mom, beat up your dad, or poop on your porch... we're sorry... we were probably really drunk...
Oh and dont steal our content bitches! Don't give us a reason to pee in your open car window this summer...