What is your ultimate solution to performance & noise?

[pHaestus]

You can also run "datathief" on the jpgs if need be lolito.

[lolito_fr]

wow, that sounds too cool.
will give it a shot, thx

(just prefer to ask first )

edit: this thing is colourblind, lol.

[DrCR]

Originally Posted by ferdb

People keep recommending the papst and panaflo 120mm fans but I have had no luck with them. Both my 120mm papst fans and the 3 Panaflo L1A's are not what I would call quiet when undervolted. They vibrate and make a sort of motor boat sound. Even my Sunon's sound better. I have some Panaflo 92's and 80's that are nice and quiet but I have yet to find a decently quiet 120mm x 38mm fan. What are people's hit rates for getting good vs bad 120mm fans amongst the papst and panaflo crowd?

The Panaflo 80mm is a nice 80mm fan and is the reference fan for SPCR (silentpcreview.com), but it is not the quietest fan. Just a venerable fan that’s quiet and fairly well-known and common. You want to make sure you get the Japanese made ones though. They’re call “Japanaflos” over at SPCR. You can get them at www.jab-tech.com. The [/b]Panaflo 120mm[/b] is not really considered in the same category among silence gurus who would consider it more like a ‘somewhat’ quiet fan.

Papst 4412 fans are very nice when undervolted on DC current. They are one of the best quiet 120mm fans for restrictive environments. They don't like PWM though. Purely noise wise, they fall in the quiet, but not the most quiet category. The Nexus and Globe options are quieter.

Note: Both the Papsts and the Panaflos seem to be degrading in quality overall. The Panaflos seem to be degrading more so then the Papsts though.

The Evercool / Titan 120mm aluminum 120mm fans are pretty good quiet fans for a low restrictive environment @ <5V DC (lower than most fans can undervolt). They also, like the Papsts, don't like PWM very much.

The Nexus "Real Quiet Fans" are excellent fans in the 80mm, 92mm, and 120mm categories. They work flawlessly on PWM and undervolts on DC well considering their low 12V CFM. The only thing I don't like about the 120mm is it's orange color (that might be a plus to others though) and it's low 12V CFM numbers. Better than the Evercools in a restrictive environment, but I'm not sure if it is as good as the Papst 4412 in such an environment. You can buy then at www.endpcnoise.com.

And then there's the Globe S1202512L-3M. Works flawlessly on PWM, undervolts on DC very well, and is one of the absolute quiets fans around when operated with either of these to wattage regulators. You can buy them at www.mnpctech.com. I don't know if it works in restrictive environments as well as the 4412, but give out more CFM/noise than the 4412 so it might not matter at all. And with it’s ~65CFM at 12V, it is also a great choice for you guys who aren’t quite sure how much CFM you are willing to give up for noise.


DrCR


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www.silentpcreview.com

[DrCR]

What is quiet? Most silent gurus consider a good Japanaflo 80mm at 5V quiet as I mentioned in the above post.

You can find out what a Japanaflo 80mm @ 5V sounds like here:
SPCR's Test / Sound Lab: A Short Tour , page4. A word of warning: silencing can be addicting!


DrCR


_________
www.silentpcreview.com

[quicksilverXP]

how are these for only 20 dollars?

http://www.xoxide.com/120mmradiator1.html

Comparable to Black Ice Pro?

[Volenti]

This is my solution.

[ferdb]

Thank you very much for the fan info.
I have some 80 and 92mm panaflo's (mine are chinese, but they seem to be good ones with very low motor and bearing noise) that I'm satisfied with. However I have two 120mm papst 4212L's and three Panaflo FBA12G12L's all of which have a good deal of motor noise and vibration. I have several Globe S1202512L-3M's which are definitely the lowest noise 120 fans I have. They are only 25mm thick though and the CFM with backpressure is not as good as the 38mm papst and panaflo fans. I was hoping the papst or panaflo's would be good based on their rep on the boards but I'm very disillusioned on them both now. Either I just got very unlucky and got 5 lemons or the quality has really degraded. I've accumulated a whole box of fans so far looking for good ones. Globes, compuman, Zalman, T&T, Panaflo, Papst, Sunon, NMB, KNT, Coolermaster, PC power and cooling,Vastech. I'm not sure where to go but there must be some quiet 120mm x 38mm fans out there. I would be happy if they were as good as any of the 80 or 92mm panaflo's I have. I've tested all these fans on pure DC btw, so pwm noise is not a factor (I made filters for my speed controllers anyway).
The papst 4212L's are probably the noisiest undervolted 120mm fans I have. Maybe there are good Papsts out there somewhere. If you know of any sources please let me know.
Thanks again for the excellent info and fan review.

Originally Posted by DrCR

The Panaflo 80mm is a nice 80mm fan and is the reference fan for SPCR (silentpcreview.com), but it is not the quietest fan. Just a venerable fan that’s quiet and fairly well-known and common. You want to make sure you get the Japanese made ones though. They’re call “Japanaflos” over at SPCR. You can get them at www.jab-tech.com. The [/b]Panaflo 120mm[/b] is not really considered in the same category among silence gurus who would consider it more like a ‘somewhat’ quiet fan.

Papst 4412 fans are very nice when undervolted on DC current. They are one of the best quiet 120mm fans for restrictive environments. They don't like PWM though. Purely noise wise, they fall in the quiet, but not the most quiet category. The Nexus and Globe options are quieter.

Note: Both the Papsts and the Panaflos seem to be degrading in quality overall. The Panaflos seem to be degrading more so then the Papsts though.

The Evercool / Titan 120mm aluminum 120mm fans are pretty good quiet fans for a low restrictive environment @ <5V DC (lower than most fans can undervolt). They also, like the Papsts, don't like PWM very much.

The Nexus "Real Quiet Fans" are excellent fans in the 80mm, 92mm, and 120mm categories. They work flawlessly on PWM and undervolts on DC well considering their low 12V CFM. The only thing I don't like about the 120mm is it's orange color (that might be a plus to others though) and it's low 12V CFM numbers. Better than the Evercools in a restrictive environment, but I'm not sure if it is as good as the Papst 4412 in such an environment. You can buy then at www.endpcnoise.com.

And then there's the Globe S1202512L-3M. Works flawlessly on PWM, undervolts on DC very well, and is one of the absolute quiets fans around when operated with either of these to wattage regulators. You can buy them at www.mnpctech.com. I don't know if it works in restrictive environments as well as the 4412, but give out more CFM/noise than the 4412 so it might not matter at all. And with it’s ~65CFM at 12V, it is also a great choice for you guys who aren’t quite sure how much CFM you are willing to give up for noise.


DrCR


__________
www.silentpcreview.com

[nigelyuen]

Use a quiet pump and speedfan
thats all you need
my computer automaticly turn the fans on when the computer is full loading

[pHaestus]

nigel:
That works ok if you want quiet at the expense of performance, but PWMing fans is not the best way to optimize noiseerformance ratio at ALL. A fan designed to run at 12V at the desired noise level will give you more cooling than a more powerful fan PWMed down.

Having said that, I do the same thing with a MO fan controller, Panaflo M1As, and a Laing D4. Not the quietest solution but it's flexible

[Becks]

A silent pc is my goal.. and I'm in the process of rebuilding my current one.

Currently its a eheim 1048, WW and each out on the WW goes to a 2 pass 2 inch thick radiator with 7x7inch fin area. Each radiator has a 120mm NMB fan on it (1750rpm@12v) This is all cooling a mobilexp@2.6ghz.... the fans are PWM controlled to keep the water ~32C... I'm pretty much staying between 200 and 600rpm. During the summer when it was 100F out gave me some issues, I just limited it to ~1000rpm and let the water get a little warmer. Its cool out now and in the morning when i wake up its spinning @ 175rpm (the lowest i let it go).

So I'm trying to improve on this current setup somehow, I'd like to fit it in a smaller case (home made cause this is the smallest full atx cause i could find, that wasn't low profile). I put the rads on the top of the case.. (heat rises, air intake low to teh floor, more of a temp difference... yea so it might mean nothing but thats my thinking) anyways my current rads are taking up alot of room... I was PLANNING on getting a single pass radiator (2inch) that would fit 2 120mm fans.

I looked for some thinner radiators and all I could find were blackice rads.. which would have alot more flow resistance, and are alot more expensive. I didn't really see that as an good idea. I would love a 1inch thick radiator (would make my case 1 inch shorter yay plus *should* perform better).. but I cannot find one that would work. Do any exist, that arn't odd shapes? I would really like to find out about them if they exist as I'm about to finalize my plans.

"That works ok if you want quiet at the expense of performance, but PWMing fans is not the best way to optimize noiseerformance ratio at ALL. A fan designed to run at 12V at the desired noise level will give you more cooling than a more powerful fan PWMed down."

I think thats oddly stated, if quietness is how you rate performance. A fan must be able to work int eh worst case situation, however it rarely occurs... pwm lets it adapt to the conditions.

I'm probably misreading it, but I'd say you choose the fan that works in the worst case, and then use PWM to optimize the fans speed for the situation its actually in... I'd see them as independent kinda (but in real world their not because the fnas that work with pwm are a subset of all fans).

[HammerSandwich]

Becks, what fan controller do you use?

[psychofunk]

Originally Posted by HammerSandwich

Becks, what fan controller do you use?

I am just guessing but if you are interested in his controler because of the seemingly wide amount of adjustent then you should check this one out. It will adjust 0-12v

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...999-902&depa=0

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by Prlwytkovsky

Or is the Eheim 1048 simply unbeatable noise wise.

The 1046 is quieter than the 1048 (not surprising). The HPPS (distributed by Innovatek but made by Eheim) is quieter than the 1046. Judging by the temps I see (MBM so use "grain of salt" in evaluating) the HPPS outperforms the 1048 with Swiftech 5000 and 6000 (did a comparison with each water block - did not change rad, fan, hosing or re-mount wb between pumps.
I'm using an Innovatek AGB-O-Matic plug on reservoir, so I was able to compare the three pumps by just stuffing different pumps in my loop.
The major problem with the HPPS seems to be that they're not in stock anywhere in the states...
The other surprising bit was that there was very little difference in temps between the 1046 and 1048 (varied between 0 and 1C), but, again, use "grain of salt"). This may be particular to the 5000 and 6000 which are not "pressure hungry".

[Becks]

mCubed's TBalancer - http://www.mcubed-tech.com/eng/ its like $65 shipped or something.. its easily the best fan controller i've ever used.

It has a bunch of temp probes and comes with software to program it. You can build responce curves based on temps for each channel. My fans have some pwm noise but if i stick retrostat fan controller after the tbalancer and set it to ~6v the noise goes away (smaller amplitude of the square wave i think makes the difference)

So anyways 100% on teh tbalancer the fan only gets 6v... my radiator is
_TEMP 00 30 31 32 33 34 035C
SPEED 20 22 25 35 50 80 100%
RPM 210 231 262 367 525 840 1050 (theoretical)
32C is the goal, so when the water gets above that it quickly starts ramping up... and soon as it goes below it goes towards a 'min' speed and hangs out there... you can only set 7 points (whatever temps needed) but tbalancer reads in .5C incraments.. so 32.5C it will pick somewhere between the 2 points around it.

Just having my fans sittign on my desk the lowest they'll take I can count their rpm... ~48rpm if i remeber.. any less and they can't keep spinning... not that 48rpm is of any use, but thats quite a range possible.

[Becks]

"I am just guessing but if you are interested in his controler because of the seemingly wide amount of adjustent then you should check this one out. It will adjust 0-12v"

The problem with most fan controllers (and i have tried many) is they're all manual and most vary voltage. Manual is not efficient.. how often will you reach over to change the fan speed? At most maybe turn it up when you open a game, then turn it off when your down.. and maybe turn down when you go to bed, at least thats all I used to do. And the other problem is voltage control.. especially with 120mm fans, 5v is often low as you're likely to go. PWM I can actually count the rpm with a stopwatch.. that is impossible with voltage control even if you can go down to 0v. <edit>well I meant to count something other htan 0rpm </edit>

"And then there's the Globe S1202512L-3M. Works flawlessly on PWM, undervolts on DC very well, and is one of the absolute quiets fans around when operated with either of these to wattage regulators."

One other good thing about globes, $8 vs $20 for a nexus and ~$20 for a papst.

[Fillman]

I looked for some thinner radiators and all I could find were blackice rads.. which would have alot more flow resistance, and are alot more expensive.

2 by 120 procores are pretty reasonable on cost. Not sure I agree with either statement unless you can provide data. I'm also interested in a thin rad as a solution for noise optimisation, but am not so quick to dismiss this particular solution.

[HammerSandwich]

Becks, I suspected you might have a Tbalancer. Been discussed some at SPCR, but your writeup is welcome. Looks like THE controller.

[Becks]

With a single pass heatercore being $19... anything more than twice that I would call alot more expensive. The ThermoChill HE120.2 and blackice rads I saw were $70-100.. 4 times as much is alot imo when you arn't guarenteed to have more performance than a single pass heatercore. I didn't mean to say they arn't as good as a heatercore, but they ARE alot more expensive (read 2x+) and I've never seen anywhere find a heatercore to have more flow resistance than the 'pc-specifc' heatercores... and with no data/comparisons between a blackice/thermochill and a heatercore with low pressure airflow, I didn't see it an option.

If I was going to do a test and compare different radiators, I would certainly include them, but I'm building a computer for myself and not testing anything.

[DrCR]

Originally Posted by HammerSandwich

Becks, I suspected you might have a Tbalancer. Been discussed some at SPCR, but your writeup is welcome. Looks like THE controller.

Yeah, there a direct link to it for any of you who might be interested.
Review of mCubed T-Balancer in English

Originally Posted by pHaestus

nigel:
That works ok if you want quiet at the expense of performance, but PWMing fans is not the best way to optimize noiseerformance ratio at ALL. A fan designed to run at 12V at the desired noise level will give you more cooling than a more powerful fan PWMed down.

Having said that, I do the same thing with a MO fan controller, Panaflo M1As, and a Laing D4. Not the quietest solution but it's flexible

Really? I guess that's because of the blade design? So a Nexus would, according to your statement, be a better choice than a Globe S1202512L-3M (for quiet cooling)?


DrCR


__________

[PieEyedPiper]

It was mentioned that the 1046 and 1048 pumps, while weak, are very quiet.
Thats awesome for a low noise senario, but after looking at the graphs, if you use a 6000-A block (responds well to low flow) you can achieve within 1C of the performance from the high powered MCP650 or MCP600.
Would this not also denote this ultimate low noise solution as high performance as well?
Even if your flow was a pathetic 0.5GPM you'd be only be getting ~2C less than a pump that could deliver 2GPM (which is really on the higher end of the scale).

If this is correct, and asuming it is, can we not all achieve our high performance low noise with this solution?

[Seyeklopz]

I thought a thin radiator with open fins on the underside could go under the pc case. In the center would be a thin hamster wheel fan which blows in every direction, sucking the air down through a hole in the case bottom. Could be a very large rad with a low speed fan, and it would take up zero room in the case.

I guess this sounds like a giant GPU air sink.. hehe

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by PieEyedPiper

If this is correct, and asuming it is, can we not all achieve our high performance low noise with this solution?

Hi - It's Mr "HPPS broken record" again :-)
If you get a chance, go check out the Innovatek/Eheim HPPS:
12VDC, quieter than a 1046, better temps than a 1048 with Swiftech 5000 or 6000 (maybe even better than with a 1250 - haven't tried one of those with either of these waterblocks).

[PieEyedPiper]

sound like the ticket to me, too bad they're sold out and have funky fittings.
Glad I was on the right track.

[bobkoure]

Yep, they seem to be sold out.
Fittings were just the same as on a Eheim 1046 - came supplied with an innovatek compression fitting for the outlet, which might be the "weird" part you're thinking of.
I hope they re-appear as a couple of friends have heard my system and want the same...

[Ruiner]

Just throwing this out there, but comparing the 1048 to a muffled D4/mcp650, when does the gain from improved head become negated by the added pump heat?
I suppose this is only an issue if radiator capacity is marginal to begin with.

Despite the relatively small temp improvements (at the diode, FWIW) of a 1048 vs. mcp650/D4, the OC improvements are supposed to be more significant (if the block can take advantage of the extra head). I was able to get a nearly 100MHz better overclock with that upgrade, as it would allow me to use a slightly higher Vcore and maintain stability.

As to whether 100MHz is worth the noise of the stronger pump.....


bob, do you have links to curves for that pump? The 12v convenience mod aside, what do they do to it to improve its head?

[HammerSandwich]

FrozenCPU has the HPPS.

Originally Posted by Ruiner

when does the gain from improved head become negated by the added pump heat?
I suppose this is only an issue if radiator capacity is marginal to begin with.

Cathar cleverly pointed out that the pump heat should be kept low relative to the load. IOW, 50W from the pump is a lot worse when cooling a 50W CPU than a 100W CPU plus a 50W GPU.

[PieEyedPiper]

interesting, frozencpu claims that the only difference in this pump is that its 12v...not enhanced like other sites mention..and like we've seen noted in this thread.

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by Ruiner

bob, do you have links to curves for that pump? The 12v convenience mod aside, what do they do to it to improve its head?

I'm sorry to say I do not have curves - though not for lack of searching.
About the only thing I've turned up was a spreadsheet at watercoolplanet.de - and it wasn't curves, just three resistances. They got flow rates for each pump pushing through a 2m length of hose - and tried it for three different hose IDs.
When I pointed out this spreadsheet here, several folks pointed me to their waterblocks rating section, which seemed a bit suspect - which in turn made me suspect the pump spreadsheet data (although it might have been fine). Anyway, I'd made my own copy of the sheet (translated to English, deleted pumps uninteresting to me) which you're welcome to here.

The housing and impeller look very much like the 1046. Whatever they're doing, they're doing by electronically controlling the motor, not by a fancy impeller or housing. Actually, I haven't had a HPPS impeller and a 1046 impeller side-by-side and I think the HPPS impeller is a bit larger in diameter, but that's about it. No Iwaki-style directional impellers, even - even though, with a DC motor and a control board, I'm pretty sure they know which way the impeller's going to be rotating.
Now, there were two HPPS pumps - the first being a 12VDC mod for the 240V 1046, which added no additional head, and the second (maybe current and maybe something else is being changed, which would explain them being out of stock everywhere) was 12V from the ground up. this is the one with claims to additional performance - but all the claims are from Innovatek and are in terms of flow in their restrictive systems - and so can't be compared to anything else...

[threeputt]

$105..ouch...

[PieEyedPiper]

haha, yeah not to mention the absurd pricing.