Are we being to anal about testing?

[jaydee]

I have wanted to write and post reviews on water blocks for a long time now. My intrest is more in the design of the blocks and how they work as opposed to just saying this works this good.

But over the last couple years I have tried to come up with an acceptable test bench to do this and always come to a dead end with people saying it isn't good enough. I have gained a lot of experience over the last couple years reading BillA's articles and studing his test bench and methods. Also have done extensive testing of my own blocks. I feel I can test blocks better than the majority of people already testing blocks with a few exeptions of course.

The problem I have is not understanding what is "sufficent experience" and what is "acceptable results". Over the last several months I have heard wildly different opinions even from the SAME sources.

So what I am asking for you YOUR opinion on what is an acceptable review to SHARE with the public. What should the review consist of, what measurments, and what kind of accuracy is minumal.

pH has me severly confused lately. He says not to slam the people that are learning for the benifit of knowlege and sharing your results, but then I see him consistantly bashing Ben who is trying to learn and share his experiences.....

I am pretty lost....

[jaydee]

I will respond to this here:

Originally posted by unregistered
sliding off topic a bit (again, sorry pHaestus)

jd
sufficient experience = the ability to understand that one may be wrong,
then doing more work to confirm that one was wrong,
-> having the balls to publicly admit such
and then sticking with it until the work was done correctly

it is a rather lengthy road, and humble pie is the main course
been there, and still revisiting regularly

That seems more like a philosophical definition. What if the person has not technical knowlege or capability what so ever but still has this trait. I know plenty that do.... Just because they are trying doesn't seem to me they are qulaified nor capable of it. You yourself seem to think this of BigBen from the words you guys exchange...

[BillA]

do not use Ben as an example, way to much baggage

if you want to test, DO SO
you will learn more in 3 months of testing than in 3 years of posting
but be not deluded about the costs, $ AND time !!

I know a guy named jd who can pick up anything you might miss

seriously, just do it

Addendum:

w/o a technical grounding it is unlikely that anything useful will result
of course such can be learned (everyone is born ignorant), but it is liable to be a very long process

testing is not so simple as it seems, and while everyone may nod their heads at this truism, only with experience can one look for the problem, find it, and then figure out how to actually fix it
- no free lessons

[pHaestus]

Ben is posting to post and to hear himself talk not to advance anyone's understanding. He has shown himself incapable of learning from what he reads. And he has now set himself up as an expert. And why not; he has thousands of posts on procooling after all! Such is life.

There is a clear difference in reading a review on the web and saying "meh, this is crap" and reading a proforum member's post where he produces numbers and saying "this is complete bullshit go get some better tools". Notwithstanding the complete lack of tact, you aren't ever going to get improvements with this approach. When someone is trying to contribute to our community then just running them off (which is what happens) is not a good idea.

The number one criteria for testing is desire to do so. It is a rare sort that doesn't mind repeating tests until they are satisfied with the reproducibility and error levels. In fact everyone works up to doing quality reviews (which is my current task in fact). If you want to write up articles then by all means do so. Just take inventory of your limitations and then try to devise ways to work around them.

As an aside, you might want to check that MCWchill thread in my worklog for some comments about the CPU backside temperature measurements. There are some nuggets of info buried in there about how mobo components are affecting CPU backside temps at low coolant temps.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by pHaestus
Ben is posting to post and to hear himself talk not to advance anyone's understanding. He has shown himself incapable of learning from what he reads. And he has now set himself up as an expert. And why not; he has thousands of posts on procooling after all! Such is life.

I can't say I fully agree with the comments towards Ben, I do belive he wants to learn and make a difference for the positive. Maybe his ways of going about it are not well accepted here, and maybe justly so....

There is a clear difference in reading a review on the web and saying "meh, this is crap" and reading a proforum member's post where he produces numbers and saying "this is complete bullshit go get some better tools". Notwithstanding the complete lack of tact, you aren't ever going to get improvements with this approach. When someone is trying to contribute to our community then just running them off (which is what happens) is not a good idea.

This is interesting and I know I have issues on this matter. But when I see something totally off the wall of reality I have a hard time with it. Such as the Player0 numbers. I will continue to work on my tact. I have been trying.

The number one criteria for testing is desire to do so. It is a rare sort that doesn't mind repeating tests until they are satisfied with the reproducibility and error levels. In fact everyone works up to doing quality reviews (which is my current task in fact). If you want to write up articles then by all means do so. Just take inventory of your limitations and then try to devise ways to work around them.

I agree totaly, but does this do anyone any good if the results are not good? You can have the best intentions, but does that justify you doing it if you can't do it correctly. (and what is correctly?)

As an aside, you might want to check that MCWchill thread in my worklog for some comments about the CPU backside temperature measurements. There are some nuggets of info buried in there about how mobo components are affecting CPU backside temps at low coolant temps.

I actually have been following that thread closely. Very interesting stuff!

[Player0]

I pride myself on the ability to learn from my mistakes and from others. This whole testing methodology has been in questions since I can remember, with temperature compression and motherboards reading things different, people arguing over wattages, probe placement, mounting pressure, flow differences, etc. In the OC world, we seem to beable to find arguement in everything, from 3dMark cheating to who's got more Folding power.

People have been asking for my credentials. Okay, so as a reviewer, maybe that is important. Ive been watercooling, pelt chilling and overclocking since my first AMD in 1999. I've owned 90% of the waterblocks ever mass produced, from Leufkens to Dtek. Ive had every SwifTech block ever made. Ive at length with many waterblock designers. Ive discussed results and methodologies with dozens of people who've owned the same blocks. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't. I've completed almost every high-level math course offered, I've certainly excelled at physics and the other sciences all my life, I've read countless sources about metals and heat transfer and hydraulics since getting in to this hobby. And thats all good for absolutely nothing, because now someone will say that I really didnt learn anything from all that experience.

So, some people will discount me simply because they don't like the numbers I receive. Some people will discount me because I dont measure flow or pressure or temperature the way that they find 'acceptable'. Thats okay to me too. I'm not writting articles for you. You aren't my target audience.

Most of the people buying waterblocks really dont understand how or why they work. Ive been running liquidninjas.com for going on two years now, and every other week, someone wants to know what block will work best for them. Sometimes, it's really hard to say, because no testing methodology is perfect, and watercooling CPUs is a complex system with a lot of math involved, and mistakes are easily made. So Ill I try to tell people on the forums, or with my reviews, is a 'garage-tech' point of view of what works good, and what doesn't.

I've been working on this last review, paying for much of it out of my own pocket, for the past few months. I've spent hours looking at each block, testing it, overclocking them, making sure they are mounted flat. And then I do it all over again to make sure. I average out the numbers, and produce them, with no other assertations than 'this is what I got, what do you make of this?'. Feel free to bash my methods, or call my numbers wrong. Maybe I could be doing something better. Hey, Im here to learn, to have fun, to explore.

Yes, I was excited about the RBX. I was excited about the Cascade. I was skeptical of the Cascade when I first got it. I didnt think it could really work that much better than all the other blocks out there. Ive been reviewing blocks for a long time, and they all seem to be equal. Until this review. The Cascade really worked amazingly well. So I get the RBX right as Im wrapping up my review, and start testing it. Wow, I was excited. It worked great, and it was competition for the Cascade.

Thats why I am enthusiastic about the RBX. It's a great waterblock that I would have no problems recommending to the people on my forums. So is the Cascade. I've recommended the WhiteWater countless times as well, basde on the reviews Ive seen of others. Ive always loved Swiftech for their attention to detail, and DangerDen for offering a dirt cheap competitor. I love it when guys like Cathar and the Spiral guy come out with a homemade design that really shines. I had one of the first Spir@ls ever.

I guess you could say that I write my reviews for the newbie, not the guys looking to compete with other reviewers. Im not trying to compete. Im just offering up my experiences to bounce off of others. Take that as you will. I dont want to argue or defend myself anymore.

[pHaestus]

I think you handled yourself very well here on the forums player0 and look forward to seeing the entire review. It seems like you really can't win around here. Post pics of a block and people will immediately ask for test results. Someone posts test results and immediately gets jumped on. I am toying with the idea of taking up drinking instead of all this testing business

Do you have an inline flowmeter as well to check if flow is being adjusted equally in all cases? How are you reading the CPU and water temps?

[jaydee]

Thanks for replying Player0. Once again sorry for jumping the gun on you. I hope you don't feel offended by people wanting to understand who you are. I have never been to your website that I can recall untill today and do not know you. So when you come in throwing around numbers that don't add up to anyone else's, including my own, it just looks wrong. I have a bad habit of jumping on people. Something I have been working on...

BUT, were you just looking for attention by starting his thread or personal satifaction that your readers will kiss your ass on demand when you don't get it on other sites?
http://www.liquidninjas.com/bbs/show...&threadid=6410

See this is the kind of stuff that makes me question the motives of people like you. In one spot you say you do it for the information. But it sure seems to me you do it for the gratification of people saying you da man. You get hammered here so you go to your site and make a thread basically asking to kiss my ass for a bit, because you know your readers will. Reminds me of that joker at pimprip. I cannot take anyone seriously like this because I don't belive they are dedicated enough to give quality results.

People like pH and BillA on the other hand do it because they want to know! They don't need the gratification of their veiwers. Their intent is to get to the bottom of things, not to get seen, not to get their ass kissed. I see very few people like this anymore. Now it is about glory and who can make the most reviews wins even if the review is worthless.

Also another part of my jugment on your character is your lack of block design knowlege. you said the RBX design should be compared to the Cascade and not the White Water. Yet the White Water looks damn near identical exept with a few cups milled in the fins. Everything else is the same.

And to top it off a few simple quotes:

originally posted by Player0
Hmm. I guess so. Well, I wont try and persuade any idiots over there to beleive the truth. I just wanted to add my two cents in to an arguement filled with uneducated people who havent even SEEN the damn block

This was reference to us at ProCooling. Also claims that YOU know the TRUTH for 100% and everyone else is wrong. BillA and Les gave you a strong backing, but this is one time I have to go against their opinion.

originally posted by Player0
On that note, I dont really care who stole what idea first. I think its a GOOD thing that block designers learn from others. Hey, its business. Adapt or die. As a waterblock user, I dont care. I just want the best bang for my buck

See most people on this site have respect for designers of water blocks. Something you seem to not care about. As a block designer myself maybe I am biased, but I try to give respect to the block designer as I would expect to get respect back. Unfortuantly people that think the way you do undermine that respect and people start to think it doesn't matter. "As long as I get the product that someone spend a lot of time and money on who cares who ripped it off so I can buy it cheaper, ****'em".

Anyway good luck to you with your site. Looks like you got plenty of supporters there to keep you happy.

I was hoping to change my view on your character with BillA and Les's input but unfortuantly I cannot. At this point I give a shit less if your qualified or not to test block.

[Cova]

What are "sufficent experience" and "acceptable results"? Coming from just another guy who just uses these products and doesn't try to test/review them, but still has at least basic knowledge of how the stuff works - I don't put any limit on your experience/results for your review to be valid. As long as everything is clearly laid out, I say post it up. If I was to test the only two blocks I've ever owned (a Maze 2 and a Maze 4), testing both on the same CPU/MB with the rest of the cooling loop unchanged, I consider that a valid comparison as long as in the review (or forum post, whatever) I state the limits of my equipment. It is the responsibility of the reader to take my results, along with other results from other reviews, posts, etc. wieghting each how he feels they should be weighted, and come to a decision on what block he feels will work best. Water-cooling isn't a hobby for newbies, its for power-users. I don't just read a single review at site X where they say Y block is good and then go buy one - I check the forums, see what blocks are popular, and search the net for every review I can find of the few blocks that look interesting.

[Player0]

Do you have an inline flowmeter as well to check if flow is being adjusted equally in all cases? How are you reading the CPU and water temps?

The flow meter thing annoys me. I *really* wanted to have one working for this review. I bought a couple, both restricted the flow so much that they would hardly even register movement. The initial plan to measure the blocks reaction to different flows didnt work, so I left the ball valve, and am going with full-flow and restrictive-flow. Just what flow/head rates we are dealing with here is beyond me. But the restricted flow measurements might be of some use, so I kept them.

I have a DMM which has a pretty accurate thermal probe, and I use my DigiDoc5 for the water temps, and they are pretty close. CPU temps are read from the Socket thermsistor of the KX7 which has been isolated with Neoprene and Silicone glue, and another digidoc probe. It's not perfect, but it shows enough small differences between the blocks to make a comparison. Yeah, I know all about the temperature compression and thermsistor innaccurasies, and Ive tried to keep those factors to a minimum.

[Player0]

Thanks for replying Player0. Once again sorry for jumping the gun on you. I hope you don't feel offended by people wanting to understand who you are. I have never been to your website that I can recall untill today and do not know you. So when you come in throwing around numbers that don't add up to anyone else's, including my own, it just looks wrong. I have a bad habit of jumping on people. Something I have been working on...

Well, it was off to a good start. I have yet to see any proof about the claims you have of my numbers 'not adding up to anyone elses'.

BUT, were you just looking for attention by starting his thread or personal satifaction that your readers will kiss your ass on demand when you don't get it on other sites?
http://www.liquidninjas.com/bbs/show...&threadid=6410

*laughs* You're ridiculous man. Thats my home forum. I just wanted to show them the discussions happening over here about the RBX. I can't breath over here with out getting shit on.

See this is the kind of stuff that makes me question the motives of people like you.

You dont know me. I dont want to know you. You have no idea about what your talking about, and your opinion doesn't matter to me (and apparantly few others even here).

In one spot you say you do it for the information. But it sure seems to me you do it for the gratification of people saying you da man. You get hammered here so you go to your site and make a thread basically asking to kiss my ass for a bit, because you know your readers will. Reminds me of that joker at pimprip. I cannot take anyone seriously like this because I don't belive they are dedicated enough to give quality results.

Beleive me, I get hammered enough on LiquidNinjas.com by idiots like you. I dont recall asking for support, just pointing people on my site to a hilariously outrageous thread over here.

People like pH and BillA on the other hand do it because they want to know! They don't need the gratification of their veiwers. Their intent is to get to the bottom of things, not to get seen, not to get their ass kissed. I see very few people like this anymore. Now it is about glory and who can make the most reviews wins even if the review is worthless.

Are you insane? Are you on lithium pills or what? Yeah, I'm just doing it for the glory. You dont have a clue as to what your talking about. I do it for fun, and I do have a hell of a busy life outside of this 'hobby'. I think you need to stop taking shit so serious and get a real frickin life. Seriously.

Also another part of my jugment on your character is your lack of block design knowlege. you said the RBX design should be compared to the Cascade and not the White Water. Yet the White Water looks damn near identical exept with a few cups milled in the fins. Everything else is the same.

What you lack in overall knowledge more than makes up for my lack of any design information

See most people on this site have respect for designers of water blocks. Something you seem to not care about. As a block designer myself maybe I am biased, but I try to give respect to the block designer as I would expect to get respect back. Unfortuantly people that think the way you do undermine that respect and people start to think it doesn't matter. "As long as I get the product that someone spend a lot of time and money on who cares who ripped it off so I can buy it cheaper, ****'em".

Someone like you drills a couple holes in a piece of copper and call himself an expert. If I have no respect for designers, then why am I in contact with so many of them? Why have people taken my opinions and changed their block designs around the things I've found fault in? But, don't expect me to every respect someone like you. Some know-it-all who's all talk on these forums but can't back a damn thing up in real life. At least I have the guts to put my opinions out there. Never once have I claimed to know it all or have all the answers. Yet it never surprises me the amount of people living in glass houses who love to throw stones.

Anyway good luck to you with your site. Looks like you got plenty of supporters there to keep you happy.

Nope, we just weed out the ignorant fools who have nothing better to do all day than come online and argue like some twitching retard

[jaydee]

Originally posted by Player0


Well, it was off to a good start. I have yet to see any proof about the claims you have of my numbers 'not adding up to anyone elses'.

Ever heard of www.overclockers.com?

*laughs* You're ridiculous man. Thats my home forum. I just wanted to show them the discussions happening over here about the RBX. I can't breath over here with out getting shit on.

There is a reason for it which you are ignoring.

You dont know me. I dont want to know you. You have no idea about what your talking about, and your opinion doesn't matter to me (and apparantly few others even here).

I am READING YOUR WORDS that YOU typed. What else is there to judge? Everyone is an idiot except you and everyone that agree's with you.

Beleive me, I get hammered enough on LiquidNinjas.com by idiots like you. I dont recall asking for support, just pointing people on my site to a hilariously outrageous thread over here.

And there is your problem. You think these people are idiots. You certainly do not know who I am, you are correct on that.

Are you insane? Are you on lithium pills or what? Yeah, I'm just doing it for the glory. You dont have a clue as to what your talking about. I do it for fun, and I do have a hell of a busy life outside of this 'hobby'. I think you need to stop taking shit so serious and get a real frickin life. Seriously.

Ok, whatever. You seem to need the attention. Just read the thread you started there. Enough said on that.

What you lack in overall knowledge more than makes up for my lack of any design information

First you claim you don't know me and now you do? Get some facts and back this statment up. Please...

Someone like you drills a couple holes in a piece of copper and call himself an expert. If I have no respect for designers, then why am I in contact with so many of them? Why have people taken my opinions and changed their block designs around the things I've found fault in? But, don't expect me to every respect someone like you. Some know-it-all who's all talk on these forums but can't back a damn thing up in real life. At least I have the guts to put my opinions out there. Never once have I claimed to know it all or have all the answers. Yet it never surprises me the amount of people living in glass houses who love to throw stones.

Look up some of my work and tell me this again. Also you obviously have no idea how the Cascade was developed either I see. You are doing a very good job setting my opinion of you in stone though (not that you care but yet you still reply). And I have no idea why anyone would ask you anything about block design. If you know what your talking about it sure doesn't show in your statments. And if you respected block designers you wouldn't be saying what you are. Your words dude! I quoted you above!!! I certainly am not a know it all and have never claimed to be. In fact a regulary state my ignorance. I do not know you or your past, but what I seen today that has been a good thing.

Nope, we just weed out the ignorant fools who have nothing better to do all day than come online and argue like some twitching retard [/b]

Yeah I just been to your site. As long as they agree they are not idiots or ignorant. If they disagree they are idiots and ignorant. That certainly makes it nice eh?


Anyway your on my ignore list so don't bother replying, especially being you don't care anyway.


Anyway, anyone else have any relevant input.

[Player0]

*lol* good, then he won't see me laughing at him

[ralf_c]

come on people not this bs again. this place is where i've seen the most blatantly arrogant and self righteous attitude, people have noobs for break fast here or something? why do people here need their freaking ego fed, this is exactly the kind of bullsh!t that keeps me from contributing here.

its fine and all to be an expert but too often some of you experts come off F@CKIN' shrewd.

p0 why don't you do your self a favor and don't ask questions here, the kind of attitude you where met with here has the tendency to persist.

[pHaestus]

In regards to the topic, it is impossible to be too anal about testing.

In regards to ralf_c; if this place sucks so much then please head the **** back to whereever you came from.

There is a lot that can be learned from the members of this board. I don't think there is another place online where forum regulars the quality of ours get together to talk shop. Check this thread for examples of what I am talking about. I learn constantly (and rarely play the role of teacher) by interacting with the other people here with technical backgrounds.

Care for an analogy? In college, there were a few education majors in some of my chemistry courses. You know, they wanted to be high school science teachers. In general, they didn't grasp the material well enough to EVER use it in a lab and they scraped by with a B- or C by and large. They graduate with confidence to teach everyone's children the finer points of chemistry in secondary schools and, in their minds, chemistry is something they have a handle on. Show them quantum mechanics or serious thermodynamics or spectroscopy and they would not even recognize it. The average hardware reviewer is a lot like an education major...

[Since87]

Originally posted by ralf_c
its fine and all to be an expert but too often some of you experts come off F@CKIN' shrewd.

Since when is being "shrewd" a bad thing? Or is it only bad when it's "F@CKIN' shrewd"?

Originally posted by ralf_c
p0 why don't you do your self a favor and don't ask questions here, the kind of attitude you where met with here has the tendency to persist.

ralf_c,

Why don't you trust Player0 to be a big boy and take care of himself. He seems to be doing all right.

Perhaps Player0 wants to hone his expertise. To my knowledge, this is the place to do it.

[ralf_c]

"head the **** back to whereever you came from."

i don't recall flaming pHaestus. thats all right.

i don't see where i said "this place suck so much" i was simply pointing out an observation that i have made about this forum. it doesn't mean that this forums sucks, it just a flaw.

pHaestus, if thats the way you wish to respond to me its all good. i am not hurt. i do recognize that your wealth of knowledge is of great value to the community and i respect that. i don't know you personally so i cannot in any way attack your character. if you knew me personally you would have never addressed me like that, i am not that kind of person.


any way if i am not welcome here ask joe to have me banned.

[pHaestus]

Don't see any reason to ban anyone (only person that seems likely to get a ban is JayDee for just gnerally being a dick ) but if you never have anything positive to say either here or elsewhere about this forum then why hang around?

[jaydee]

Originally posted by pHaestus
(only person that seems likely to get a ban is JayDee for just gnerally being a dick )

I call it as I see it. If that means I am a dick then be it. This guy is making some pretty ignorant remarks and I am calling him on it. Also keeping the thread I linked in mind aswell. His responce has been a lot worst than mine IMO. So ban on if you wish. As for the ignorant remarks he made about this site not sharing idea's, maybe he needs to look in the water block design and construction thread eh? I shared just about everything I have done and am continuing to do so. How many blocks have I designed and made and SHARED with this site? Whos name is in the top of the Cathars Cascade thread as contributors the design of the Cascade? That's right, mine and several other ProCooling members. Including Ben!!!

http://www.liquidninjas.com/bbs/show...&threadid=6410


Lock or delete this thread if you wish. I just saved it for future reference.

[pHaestus]

Yea some other nuggets in that thread as well from Player0:

Ive said it time and time again that some reviews go WAY beyond what is necessary for someone to know when they are buying a block. I've too often seen blocks perform differently on 'professional' test-beds than they do on someones home PC.

Im not TRYING to accomplish the most indepth, mathematically perfect review on the planet. Heh, you know, people assume that if you don't do something, you can't. It's a personal choice to use a PC as a test bed, because I want to pretend like I'm just any other guy buying a waterblock and installing it. Those other reviews have a place, its for the waterblock designers and the testing perfectionists. And that accounts for about 1% of the watercooling community.

When you take into account that his testing setup was an Abit in socket thermistor and a digidoc, that he mounted blocks 2 times, and that he generally has disdain for bench testing then I stand corrected JayDee. The review is probably of little real use to anyone (well blocks performing within 1-2 C of one another with a 10C error bar). You called it properly from the beginning. I received a PM from someone familiar with their forums tonight too:

I recall a thread where Player0 insulted, and, in the end, drove a very learned gentleman off the ninjas site. As I recall that man was pointing out, politley, some shortcomings in Player0's review of the day. He further quoted Crane's papers to support his position. Player0's response to this man's thoughts and advice on his reviewing was to belittle hem for his "book theory's and degree (If I recall right it was in engineering) vs Player0's superior hands on system methods. He very rudely told the man that he didn't care for bench tests involving high cost equipment which were meaningless in regard to real world use, when he (Player0) got better results, and more accurate results, when it came to how things would work for people using the block in a system.

As I said anonymous PM so take it FWIW.

[Blackeagle]

Originally posted by pHaestus
Don't see any reason to ban anyone (only person that seems likely to get a ban is JayDee for just gnerally being a dick ) but if you never have anything positive to say either here or elsewhere about this forum then why hang around?

Considering what I've read at Ninjas both in the past and today, I would hope NO thought to banning JD is given. (And yes his fuse burned short agian ).

Considering what I've read on Ninja's both prior to today and today, I'd have to say that for the most part I think JD is quite correct overall (In regards to Player0's testing methods, and thier shortcomings.) Player0 is a system tester and always has been & he has no interest in changing that, as his posts at Ninjas both today and well into the past make clear.

[pHaestus]

That was a joke anyway about banning JayDee. I get frustrated with his short fuse, but I think he's a real benefit to the people here making their own wbs in terms of practical experience at milling and designing and CAD.

[Blackeagle]

Originally posted by pHaestus
That was a joke anyway about banning JayDee. I get frustrated with his short fuse, but I think he's a real benefit to the people here making their own wbs in terms of practical experience at milling and designing and CAD.

Thanks ph.

I agree.

Fast fuse and all!

[ralf_c]

Originally posted by pHaestus
but if you never have anything positive to say either here or elsewhere about this forum then why hang around?

this place does have its good traits. i never said this place is totally worthless. there are lots of good guys here and despite the occasional clashing a lot good info comes out of the average thread here but it just doesn't make good karma when a thread gets buck whiled like this one.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by unregistered
do not use Ben as an example, way to much baggage

if you want to test, DO SO
you will learn more in 3 months of testing than in 3 years of posting
but be not deluded about the costs, $ AND time !!

I know a guy named jd who can pick up anything you might miss

seriously, just do it

Addendum:

w/o a technical grounding it is unlikely that anything useful will result
of course such can be learned (everyone is born ignorant), but it is liable to be a very long process

testing is not so simple as it seems, and while everyone may nod their heads at this truism, only with experience can one look for the problem, find it, and then figure out how to actually fix it
- no free lessons

I missed this BillA. I do agree. Especially with the last part. I gave up trying to fix the problems and just dropped it all together. It is a tough battle. One I do not take lightly (as you can tell from my well lit flame thrower on the subject). Maybe I am to strict with myself and others.

I still lack a lot of technical training/knowlege like you, pH, and Les have which is another thing I have troubles with sometimes. That thread pH is working on is over my head but I keep reading it and it starts to make since after a while (at least I think it does). I feel confident I learned enough so far that I could put together and operate a decent test bench, but one thing that really keeps me from doing it is time. Unlike some I can't just throw a block on for 30 minutes and take notes. My idea of testing includes at least 24hrs per mount and at least 5 remounts per block with temp logging. And letting equilibrium set in BEFORE testing starts. This cannot be done in 30minutes. Not in my experience anyway. I have waited hours sometimes for the temps to stabilize.

I just don't have the time to do that. Not with a full time job and having the daughter on the weekends (which goes above all else). If I won the lottery and didn't need to work I would jump right in. But damn..... What I consider proper testing is a full time job by itself. Thats why I started this thread. Maybe my idea of proper testing is to much. Maybe I could fit it in on my spare time? I think not. I don't think I would be satisfied with my results enough to publish them. I would rather keep designing and building blocks in my spare time which I know I can contribute more usefull information about. Well I sometimes question myself on that to. Is sharing my designs a good thing or a bad thing? maybe I just think to much.