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Water Block Design / Construction Building your own block? Need info on designing one? Heres where to do it

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Unread 10-14-2002, 03:11 PM   #1
bigben2k
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Default "Radius" by BigBen2k

After much thought, and with some numbers from Cathar's experiment, I've come up with this fin design for my #2 block:

Name: "RADIUS"

Fin count: 32
Fin width: 0.9 mm
Fin height: 5 mm ?
Channel width: varies between 0.6 and 1.2 mm
copper/channel ratio: varies between 3:2 and 3:4. Average 5:4.

Since it's a center inlet, I'm still puzzled about how to make it all work. First thought: lower the fin height in the middle.

The difficulty of course, is making it! My first idea is to mount a 0.6 mm cutting disc on a shaft, and move the block around. It would not make the center fins squarely cut, but since I might lower it, I think it'd be ok if it cut into them some.

Thoughts?
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Unread 10-14-2002, 03:54 PM   #2
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Nice one... ...tough to make though...

Those dots on the rim of the first 'circle', are they copper posts?

Just wondering, this is something that screams for 4 outlets or some kind of equiliser like g_f or morphling's...

I'm sure you calculated everything, and I'm not suspecting that this block would perform well, but this would be a really time consuming piece to machine...

What's the base thickness calculated for this beauty?

PS: you could rename it to NOVA...
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Unread 10-14-2002, 04:01 PM   #3
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Yeah, they're copper posts. They're really optional though.

There would be a 1 7/8 inch copper tube soldered to the top, for the 1 7/8 ID vinyl tube. The center inlet is fed from a 1/2 inch tube that's inside the big tube.

Here's a draw of the top (and what fins can be seen).
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Last edited by bigben2k; 10-14-2002 at 04:08 PM.
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Unread 10-14-2002, 04:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Puzzdre
Nice one... ...tough to make though...

Those dots on the rim of the first 'circle', are they copper posts?

Just wondering, this is something that screams for 4 outlets or some kind of equiliser like g_f or morphling's...

I'm sure you calculated everything, and I'm not suspecting that this block would perform well, but this would be a really time consuming piece to machine...

What's the base thickness calculated for this beauty?

PS: you could rename it to NOVA...
Single inlet, single outlet with a special cube res to separate the flows.

BP thickness would have to be minimum 1.5 mm, max 4 mm. I'm leaning towards 2 or 3mm.

I tried to draw this to scale, with a 1 mm BP:
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Unread 10-14-2002, 04:08 PM   #5
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Wouldnt that be putting the hot water right next to the "slightly cooler" water?
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Unread 10-14-2002, 04:12 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by MeltMan
Wouldnt that be putting the hot water right next to the "slightly cooler" water?
Yes. The flow rate should be high enough so that it's not relevant. Besides, I'm sure that the vinyl (or Tygon) will be able to insulate it enough.

Flow will be dictated by what my "Little Giant" 2-MDQ-SC can put out.

Right now, I'm trying to figure out what size nozzle to use, but more specifically how it's going to be mounted.
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Unread 10-14-2002, 04:24 PM   #7
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dont forget... pics!

oh yeah, temps too!
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Unread 10-14-2002, 04:27 PM   #8
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This makes things a little more complicated, but you can make a holder like Paul Vodrazka's, only rectangular in middle, and make that cube res a few mm wider on the bottom area so the holder can grip it from the top and push the whole assembly down...

Grrr, why didn't somebody invented a mind photography machine????

Yes, yes, there would be a rise in the pr0n industry, but there are other good things too...
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Unread 10-14-2002, 05:31 PM   #9
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One thing that's gonna matter is how well the fins "connect" to the baseplate. If you look at Cathar's design up close, I'm betting you'd actually find a small radius at the bottom of each "slot". This is preferable to having a sharp 90° corner where the fin meets the base. Just from your sketch, it looks like you would have a higher ratio of "white space" where fins don't sit atop the die vs Cathar's design.

PITA to manufacture, but would obviously look pretty sweet. If I was a bettin' man, I'd still put my money on Cathar's but doubt what you've drawn would be very far behind if you can get it made.

Best of luck to ya Ben.
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Unread 10-14-2002, 06:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by myv65
One thing that's gonna matter is how well the fins "connect" to the baseplate. If you look at Cathar's design up close, I'm betting you'd actually find a small radius at the bottom of each "slot". This is preferable to having a sharp 90° corner where the fin meets the base. Just from your sketch, it looks like you would have a higher ratio of "white space" where fins don't sit atop the die vs Cathar's design.

PITA to manufacture, but would obviously look pretty sweet. If I was a bettin' man, I'd still put my money on Cathar's but doubt what you've drawn would be very far behind if you can get it made.

Best of luck to ya Ben.
I see what you mean, but I think Cathar had his made by CNC, so it should be flat, but it was sandblasted (or something) so it's impossible to tell (Cathar?).

Here's a pic of where the core sits (approx) assuming a perfectly centered 11 by 11 mm core.

I can tell that my fin drawing isn't to scale (I need CAD!) because the last set of fins (not the posts) shouldn't be over the core, except for the corner ones. Cathar used a 1:1 ratio of copper:channel, and I'm using an average of 1.25:1, so I should have more copper over the core, but only by a little bit.

Making this block is still a challenge. If I go with my original idea, then I'm cutting into the first set of fins (those that cross over the core) and leaving a central square post.

As an alternative, I could braze the first set of fins into place, leaving them out so that I can cut the rest of this beyatch out, but I don't know if it would work, especially given the very small size of these things. I could braze what I end up cutting out of fin set#1, but again, too small.
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Unread 10-14-2002, 06:49 PM   #11
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I've never met a cutting tool that had a perfectly sharp corner. Even if not intended, I'll guarantee that there is some finite radius at the base of Cathar's fins (and that it is beneficial, albeit perhaps a minor affect).

The only way to really avoid one is to bond pre-cut fins to the base with solder, braze, whatever. Even then you'll still get a radius, however, simply due to the surface tension of whatever you use to bond.

I only brought it up because it looks like you've intentionally got a lot of white space over the die. Perhaps it's merely an optical illusion. Perhaps it's real and a requirement for having enough cross area for flow. I don't know for certain.

Also worth noting that the AMD die isn't centered over the four bolt holes. If you managed to survive the entirety of Cathar's thread at OCAU, you probably already know this.
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Unread 10-14-2002, 07:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by myv65
I've never met a cutting tool that had a perfectly sharp corner. Even if not intended, I'll guarantee that there is some finite radius at the base of Cathar's fins (and that it is beneficial, albeit perhaps a minor affect).

The only way to really avoid one is to bond pre-cut fins to the base with solder, braze, whatever. Even then you'll still get a radius, however, simply due to the surface tension of whatever you use to bond.

I only brought it up because it looks like you've intentionally got a lot of white space over the die. Perhaps it's merely an optical illusion. Perhaps it's real and a requirement for having enough cross area for flow. I don't know for certain.

Also worth noting that the AMD die isn't centered over the four bolt holes. If you managed to survive the entirety of Cathar's thread at OCAU, you probably already know this.
I haven't quite survived that thread yet! LOL! I'm still trying to follow what BillA instructed me to do: "Dig Deeper". The AMD die is 0.5 mm off-center, but that's OK, I'm not worried about it, at all!

I agree, there must be some kind of curve to the bottom of Cathar's channels. Good point.

I'd very much like to go around cutting this thing into shape, but I'm not confident that soldering will give me the thermal bond that's needed. As for brazing, again, the parts are so small, and if you look at the pattern, all but 4 of the fins are attached to each other. Lots of small parts!

Right now, I'm looking at this:
1-The cutting disk, attached to a rod, that I can press down to a set depth (Z axis).

2-A table, that I can rotate completely, in 1/128 steps.

3-A motor drive for the cutting tool.

4-A way to shift the cutting tool, in 0.1 mm steps, from side to side (X axis). A free-hand motion on the Y axis.

5-A lubricant pump, and some kind of cover.


In short: I'm looking into custom tools, for a custom block!

The diameter of the cutting disc is going to be critical: if it's too large, then I'll be cross-cutting into other channels.

The only positive news is that the rest of the channel (outside of the fin area) can simply be "turned" out, leaving a cylinder in the middle for me to cut up!
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Unread 10-14-2002, 08:44 PM   #13
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Ben,

If you recall, I posted my idea of what your block would look like in the "Ultimate block? Theory" thread. Since then I've come up with a few ideas, which I will post, if you like. A couple of q's come to mind:
1. Have you given up the idea of the fins at the bottom imparting a "swirl"? ie. curved vs. straight radial fins.
2. Are you wedded to the idea of a uniform thickness baseplate? Recall that Cathar's fins brace the baseplate against the cover, effectively giving him a stiffer bp to compensate for his lack of thickness. Also, his has a higher density of "finnage" than yours will at a given point, I believe. Refer to my posts in the "Ultimate waterblock" for the direction I am heading.

As to Cathar's block, I believe he said that he had the fins EDM'd into the copper. When I talked to one of my co-workers about machining 1mm channels into copper, he wasn't particularly enthusiastic. PITA!

I also have an idea or two re: mounting. If you prefer, I can contact you off-line, but that might be considered bad form. In any case, any help I might be able to give re: CAD and NC Programming is available.

Bob
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Unread 10-14-2002, 09:03 PM   #14
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1-Yes, I've given up on the swirl idea. It was bad. I realize that now!

2-In similar fashion to Cathar (which to credit, inspired most of this design), the top plate will compensate for the lack of stifness of the baseplate. I originally didn't plan on having a disc in there at all, but it seems to be required, in order to force the water through the fins, and since it's also a structural item, it will be quite thick (6mm?). I plan on using 8 bolts to secure it, if I don't braze this top on!

I'm open to ideas. Like I said, I have a problem in making this block, where I can't create it "as drawn".

Actyally, my fin density is higher. I know it's hard to tell! Cathar uses a 1mm channel, with a 1 mm (wide) fin. I'm using a 0.6 mm channel, and a 0.9 mm fin. If I drew the fins to full extension, it would be more obvious. The way that they're drawn now, I'm only showing where the fins have a full 0.9 mm thickness. They actually taper down to 0.0 mm, leaving a 0.6mm (to 1.2 mm) channel everywhere.

Cathar didn't have it EDM'd: he had it machined. He did say that if he wanted to go to 0.9mm wide fin and 0.6mm channel, he would have to go the EDM route.

I'm not concerned with mounting right now: it's a minor issue. The top can simply have extending tabs, with holes for a bolt mount. Optionally, I could try to reproduce the Innovatech mount. If you have ideas, please post them. I don't mind PMs, either way.

If you are offering CAD services, I'll take you up on it. PM me, and I'll send you the measurements.

FYI, I'm still guesstimating, but a 3/8 nozzle might be best. More number crunching to do!

I also need to try to figure out how to evaluate this beast's theoretical performance. Since the fin pattern is radial, it throws out a lot of standard tools and calculators!

Last edited by bigben2k; 10-14-2002 at 09:44 PM.
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Unread 10-14-2002, 09:30 PM   #15
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Okay, to answer a few question raised here about my block.

1) It was produced on a Pantograph mill, not a CNC mill. The production blocks will be done on a very high speed (RPM) CNC milling machine.

2) I really can't comment as to the curvature of the fins where they meet the base. The cutting tools is (of course) absolutely tiny and Dave is probably quite right about a slight curvature at the end of the mill bit. Given that the mill bit at this point has less strength bracing it, this would naturally be the case.

3) I did consider EDM but passed it over as a production method. If I were to consider EDM, then I certainly wouldn't use a 1mm wide channel given the machining flexibility that EDM offers. I'd go for something like 0.3mm wide fins and 0.25mm wide channels and a lower fin height (~3mm). I know I originally said 0.9:0.6, but upon further investigation of EDM I'd go for a even finer set of fins/channels.

4) The AMD die is actually 1.25mm off centre horizontally, but is centered vertically when looking at the socket with the latch arm to one side. I settled on making my inlet "nozzles" being 1mm off-centre.

5) My block was designed and drawn up using MS-Paint and I printed out the plans and presented them to the machinists who said "No worries - these designs look better than what we usually get given to us".

6) The "optimal" copper:channel ratio is anywhere between 1.5:1 to 0.8:1 from my research, with the actual ratio used dictating fin height. By optimal I mean that for a set width of channels and fins, a higher ratio means less channels but higher water-velocity to compensate, and vice-versa. It's a bit like plotting the bottom of a parabolic curve where the curve is basically flat for all intents and purposes within a certain range.

I considered radial designs but as Dave has mentioned, this does allow for a fair amount of "white space" above the critical central die region that is hard to address, not to mention the "as observed" manufacturing complexity. There was also the issue of how to bring down the nozzle inlet size to boost water velocity and still have that rapid impinging water flow distributed over the entire CPU die area.

Still, I admire the design and I hope you can get it made.

I suggest looking at key-cutter style cutting blades, which are a small radius allowing the blade to curve in and out without cutting up the edges of your block and can be resharpened easily and allow for fairly accurate depth. This was one manufacturing method that I considered. Blade widths down to 0.8mm are fairly easy to get a hold of.

Good luck!

Last edited by Cathar; 10-14-2002 at 09:35 PM.
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Unread 10-15-2002, 02:48 AM   #16
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That is how my original idea looked like, but what you have just draw can't be done with conventional method of machinning, ok maybe on high speed cnc mill with super fine bit, but that would take ages to mill, and be incredibly expensive, edm should be able to do this, but again making a tool for edm is done by conventional method so that would again be very expensive.
In my design I compromise to be able to make it on my machine, first block MWBC mk2 you can see in my thread I used 2mm bit and then milled out 16 straight radial chanells of course like cathar said that way you mill out central part of the block. So in my current final design MWBC mk3 I milled out 8 4mm radial chanels and in the center left a cone with 8 round chanell on the surface.
Now I'm thinking how to use thin cutting blades of smaller radius, to cut radial chanells, but still in the center small cone would be left out which I don't believe it's a bad thing at all.

myv65 , some finite rounding of end mill bit edge would definetly exist, but if you magnify close enough what is perfect edge, it doesn't exist because the molecules and atoms are round
End millied edge is sharp enough so that it won't have any good effect on flow rate.

edit: I add another pic. of Mk3 block how it looked:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...6024#post46024

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Unread 10-15-2002, 03:50 AM   #17
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I've an idea how you could make it work. it'd involve a 'blanking' plate with holes in (a circle of then at the radius of the blocks circle) for water to 'vent' up into another chamber above, which would house an outlet barb. there are calculations to equalise the flow(the outlet would be off centre, and least resiistance being what it is...) that I'd need help with.

Hopefully this would stop any 'crossflow'(wtf?) where water is trying to get to the outlet, the flow would be symetrical(is this as important as I think in a radial block?)...

It should be workable, just have to calculate the holes size/amount so it does'nt create to much(or any???) back pressure...

Utabintarbo has offered to make up a model for me, I've just got to find time to ink up a drawing and scan it(my scanners in a cardboard box ), and upload it to him...
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Unread 10-15-2002, 04:10 AM   #18
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Check out my block it has three layers, and I would say the flow is symetric enough not to effect performance, any this is only important for overall flow distribution so that the block is less restrictive, in the center of the block where to flow hit the block you won't have any problems with velocity differencials (not big enough to notice) that would effect performance.
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Unread 10-15-2002, 06:27 AM   #19
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Bigben2k
Here is an available heatsink that you might be able to adapt to your idea (for a test).

if you want some info PM me and I will send you some photos and dimensions.

fresno12
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Unread 10-15-2002, 07:21 AM   #20
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As to manufacturability, I would suggest having no gap between fins less than .9 - 1mm. Cutters don't seem to like copper (from my coworkers reaction mentioned previously), and small cutters will like it less! Would this mess up your calculations?

I will try to come up with a picture...

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Unread 10-15-2002, 08:38 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by morphling1
myv65 , some finite rounding of end mill bit edge would definetly exist, but if you magnify close enough what is perfect edge, it doesn't exist because the molecules and atoms are round
Someone has obviously forgotten that I'm suppose to be the smart-a$$ that points out nit-picky technicalities.

I finally remembered what it was that this block reminded me of. The History Channel did a story on radar development. While the Brits came up with a way to make it work, they could not manufacture an intricate part (looking much like Ben's block) in mass quantities. A US engineer came up with the idea of stamping thin sections and bonding them together to build the required height.

You *could* make your block this way, but I wouldn't give a plugged nickel for the performance. Maybe if you compressed a bunch of thin copper sections and dipped the whole shebang in silver solder, but that's a stretch.

Again, good luck.
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Unread 10-15-2002, 09:51 AM   #22
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In reply to Cathar: thanks for stopping by!

I had to lookup "Pantograph mill" to see what you meant. Interesting. Perfect for prototyping!

Since I'm not going the EDM route, 0.9 and 0.6 are my target. I'm going to stick to your prescribed ratio, which strangely enough matches EXACTLY what you wrote above (1.5 to 0.8), where mine varies between 1.5 and 0.75 .

Since I don't expect my pump to put out a formidable flow rate, I think I'll stick to 5mm fin height. Does that look about right?

"The AMD die is actually 1.25mm off centre horizontally, but is centered vertically when looking at the socket with the latch arm to one side." Noted, thank you sir!

I also drew this thing up with my l337 MS Paint skills (ooh, aah!). I'm getting in touch with Uta for a CAD rep, since MS Paint really can't do it justice.

As for the white space over the core, I'll try to calculate what I've come up with, but off-hand, since I'm using a ratio (as stated above), I would expect to get 56% copper-fin coverage, where yours is 50%. I gotta run those numbers...

I haven't had any luck (preliminary) in finding a blade width of 0.8, much less 0.6 .

I'm considering a photo-etching solution, but I can't quite visualize it yet.
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Unread 10-15-2002, 10:06 AM   #23
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To Morphling1: I think I saw that you cut the channels with a drilling bit mounted at a 45 deg angle, is that right?

MadDog: I was hoping to stay away from an off-center outlet. It's a good idea though, and I can visualize an upper chamber. I think there might be an issue with mounting the center barb, but that should be easily fixed.

I think I'll stick to the original idea. It also allows to "cheat the specs" with a lower block weight , as they're measured without the tubing attached. the central barb will definitely not be brass, as I will stay away from galvanic corrosion, at all costs.

Fresno12: you've been pm'd! I might even be able to adapt this unit, with a little "top" redesign.

MYV65: Interesting. I wouldn't give the silver solder any points for conductivity. I'd have to attach all these fins with a temporary brace for this to work, since they make up 29 separate parts.
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Unread 10-15-2002, 10:27 AM   #24
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Fresno12, I found it...

http://www.attech.com.tw/html/page10137.htm

Found it here:
http://shop3.outpost.com/product/3402173/

Thanks for the tip. I'll stop by and see if I can pick it up locally.
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Unread 10-15-2002, 01:50 PM   #25
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Default ProCooling block?

You know... it's going to be so hard to make, that I'm considering this design:
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