thoughts on the French troubles ?

[BillA]

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2208262005
http://debka.com/article.php?aid=1107
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=794

I believe it was/is a German professor who says the West is deluded,
it is a religious war, not about benefits but beliefs

an external hand ?
lots of groups with agendas, I see the influx of radical leftists into Bolivia every time the government is destabilized by orchestrated protests (a legitimate grievance used as a pretext for force)

will it always be possible to hire enough police to protect the rich ?

is a rioter not an urban terrorist ?

[maxSaleen]

I skimmed through the articles...
France has a lot of problems. Personally, I think their economy is partially to blame for this unrest. Unemployment in France is relatively high; 12% last time I checked. Output per worker is low, virtually all labor is unionized. This prevents companies from hiring. Could make it very hard for young people to get work.

Good point with the religious war, Bill. There is a growing muslim population in western europe. Mixing muslims, christians, and jews just doesn't seem to be a safe thing, granted we haven't seen such violence here in the U.S.

I don't know where we stop the definition of terrorist. If you consider a rioter a terrorist, why not a thief? Why not a murderer or rapist? I guess you could say that a terrorist is one who attempts to intimidate/terrorize a mass of people, in which case a rioter would fall under the term terrorist.

No, eventually we won't be able to hire enough police. The NRA will have its way and everyone will have a gun.... the people with the biggest guns and the best aim will win. Free for all. At least that's what a Marxist would like to see. After all the rich have been killed off, the rest get together and form a Soviet Union.

Bah, rambling again. Sorry.

[HAL-9000]

I think the problems going on in France are a result of that country's attitude culturally. The French are very anxious to preserve their culture. They have a commission there that is supposed to change imported English words and acronyms (like CD-ROM, RAM, or "blog") into French ones to preserve the language, for instance. It basically comes down to a cultural chauvinism, that defines what is "French" and what is "foriegn." Problem with that, you inadvertently define WHO is "French" and who is "foriegn." They are in a sense reaping the benefits of that now, becaue they have culturally isolated whole segments of what is increasingly an indigenous poplulation within their borders.

There society is also crystallized into very fixed interests. Watching French farmers go on strike and shut the south of the country down with roadblocks and their own version of rioting over something as mundane as watermelon imports from Chile is an interesting example. All developed countries are like that to some extent, but France takes it to the next level, and there society at that point deprives big chuncks of the population from any social mobility, up or down via such crystallization.

Originally Posted by maxSaleen

No, eventually we won't be able to hire enough police. The NRA will have its way and everyone will have a gun.... the people with the biggest guns and the best aim will win. Free for all. At least that's what a Marxist would like to see. After all the rich have been killed off, the rest get together and form a Soviet Union.

Bah, rambling again. Sorry.

I don't think its a European problem per se. If you look at Germany, they do much better with a sizeable Turkish population that is very Muslim, (and the Turks do much better in that society than all those Algerians in France) despite that country's historical pre-disposition to chauvinism. Ditto for the Brits as well, who have obviously some fringe elements with their Muslim populations, but for the most part that is a very integrated, egalitarian society as a comparison to France.

If anything, I hope Europe continues to evolve as a society where religion is compartmentalized and closed off from temporal power, no matter what the religion is. If there is a threat to Europe from all of this, it is the slow erosion of the most secular society in the world. Holy Rollers of any kind are bad news when they get to be the cops.

[JoeKamel]

I can only speak from my mother's experience when she lived in France in the 60s (from about 58-61). This was during the Algerian indepence war, and what she told me about popular attitudes towards the Muslim immigrant community was pretty much on par with us and blacks in the 1920s. What HAL was talking about with their cultural chauvanism is completely right. They have a very distinct idea of what is French and what isn't, and if it isn't French, its lesser. Not to say its necessarily a bad thing to take pride in your culture, but to exclude because of it is going to cause you problems, which is what we're seeing here. You hear of the same problems in Israel, in the US, in a lot of the world. There is a dominant ethnic/cultural/social/whatever group that has its identity and because of it you wind up with other groups left on the outside in terms of social acceptance, jobs, education, and it leaves them angry and disgruntled, and in a lot of cases without hope. If you ignore a problem like that it boils over and you get what you're getting in France now.

[miladiou]

what happens in france right now is not so different from the riots taking place in new orleans after huricanne katrina, i don't think that kind of things are specific of the french culture...
Our huricanne is named Sarkozy thats the main difference

[BillA]

Originally Posted by miladiou

what happens in france right now is not so different from the riots taking place in new orleans after huricanne katrina, i don't think that kind of things are specific of the french culture...
Our huricanne is named Sarkozi thats the main difference

you are in denial

[miladiou]

Originally Posted by unregistered

you are in denial

of what?

[JoeKamel]

Originally Posted by miladiou

of what?

Firstly the scope of the "rioting" in New Orleans. Most of it was a media creation based off of individual reports of incidents in various areas.
Secondly, the cause. Most of the incidents in NO that could be considered rioting were IMHO justified. I'm sorry but people abondoned by their government at whichever level was at fault (namely all levels) left with no food or water, I'm going to forgive them for raiding Walmart and taking clothes and whatnot. I don't blame the people taking potshots at people who were running around breaking into places trying to get supplies. Simply put, those first 48-72 hours after Katrina could best be described as anarchy because there was no true government to keep what we consider order.

Then again there's the situation in France right now. How about some input on your ideas of what's behind this, as right now all I'm going on is the news, which as we all know isn't as objective as it should be instead of just saying its not as bad as things here in the states? I can understand your defensiveness, but please undersand that what I'm seeing of this isn't that this is something that only happens in French culture, but in a way a byproduct of the culture.

[UNDERBYTE]

We should send John Kerry in to neg. terms of surrender - I understand he speaks french

[bobo5195]

Best analogue i think is the British race riots of the 70's/80's.

To assume that there is much "french" government in some of the immigrant ghettos is quite false they are pretty much a law to themselves, with the local community running things. Integration is minimal. There is a similar situation across the world (to assume that British Asians do not do a similar thing is naïve except there are less of them than in france there are still areas of complete segregation, im sure there are many examples in the USA given that its society is far more segregated and immobile than France. My mum was aghast at how divided the USA was when she was over there in the 70s). There were still are race riots in Britain on a much smaller scale (recently a near “ruck” in Birmingham between Asians and Blacks, on going sporadic riots in Leicester in recent year), similarly in France there are some. Katrina did show that order can break down relatively easily in most societies although the violence was overblown by TV (though the conditions experienced by many people were not) and to European eyes I have to say that widespread ownership of guns in the USA didn’t help matters.

I personally believe the story that there is some mastermind to this but could well be wrong.

In all likelihood its from a culmination of French domestic policy and sluggish growth. the French have always been proud of "frenchness" and the strict separation of the church and the state (far more so than the US, which is relatively lax in that respect when compared to most European Countries). While they are intolerant of immigrants its hardly fair to that they are more so than a lot of other places and in comparison to some of the stories coming from the USA after 9 11. Most EU countries are experiencing some kind of backlash. France has a notable rise in the more fascist extremes in recent years similarly with Jorge Hider (sp?) in Austria, Pim Fortune’s former party in Netherlands. The BNP is having some of its best time in the UK for decades. You can partly point to the crack down of the Muslim community after Americas backlash after 9 11 but certainly economics plays a part. The war on terror (a phrase I hate and a gross simplification of events) has been causing division all over the west and the pictures coming out of Iraq hardly help. When channels like al jezera (which I thought was actually quite good in comparison to Fox at least, although American news in general is not very good) show that there is divide going on and that it is increasing.

Sarkozi is thought of as the French Thatcher (which is why I make the link to the British race riots) reductions in state aid due to economic conditions in france are hitting the poor first, very much like Thatcheright policies started biting in the UK. In a similar way the response in immigrant enclaves is much the same, to riot as there’s pretty much nothing else they can do. The way the continental Europeans have done things has always been different to the Anglo Saxon way of thinking. Indeed there are very many people who think the French way is far better than things the USA ( I do to a point, better healthcare, generally fairer society, better sense of community). Productivity per hour is very good in France and while large unionised workforces are inefficient they do keep working hours low which improves standards of living (in that you are not shattered from work). To assume that nothing was going to happen after trying to Sarkozi trying to change centuries of French cultural practice was always a leap of faith.

[miladiou]

http://www.ilyric.net/Lyrics/n/Ntm/Qu'est-ce-Qu'on-Attend.html

[BillA]

lol
so French
to which audience do you speak ?
then the message should be so suited

Kerry ? good, then he can change his mind

[ricecrispi]

It was like the question Malcom X asked. Do you wait peacefully for a solution to come and in doing so delay that solution to occur just to be peaceful or...
aggressively pursue the solution and make it happen? Do you sieze the day or wait for someone to fix the problem.

The black muslims population in France got sick being seen and treated as second rate citzens. The French youth got tired of not being "French" enough and not getting jobs. Muslims love to throw rocks (as seen in Palestine) and youth loves to rebel and amateur terrorist love to start anarchy so they all got together and did something about their problems.

France, not having enough foresight as usual didn't see it coming and were ill prepared. Wait till the real terrorist start coming in. France better fix that problem or things are going to get worse.

Hal made a good point as the French are trying to preserve themselves. They have falling birth rates with people of "FRENCH" origins and are paying them to have more kids. Now they got another problem.

[miladiou]

Originally Posted by unregistered

lol
so French
to which audience do you speak ?
then the message should be so suited

this is ten years old, and from a famous french rap band
just to say we are not watching anything new...scary but not new

[TerraMex]

riots are a mingle of things, also to be pointed out, the sheer numbers of immigrants on european countries have increased exponentially.
Now, from a cultural point , immigrants wont relate to the country that harbored them, and lost links with the one they came from, feel a void.
religion, as said, france keeps a strict division of state and religion,
and some communities segregate themselfs in the process, and feel harassed in several ways, and the government has a bad tendancy to say "keep me out of it", when they should be active and combat seclusion.
and economics, as european economies are in the dump, people keep forgetting that the time when the state was everybody's daddy has ended. The poor and the immigrants are always the first to suffer from the cutbacks. Socialism has it's costs.
blame to go around, specially after 9/11, for the economies and harassment of muslims.
but Oliver Stone's Conspiracy Theory? Sorry.

lets not turn this into a "lets bash the french" type thread.
too many on fark.

PS: there is an increasing tension between local populations and immigrants as the locals feel as they are being cheated of "their" jobs by them, specially now, as unemployment runs high. Funny as them, immigrants, fill a need for labor, specially for jobs that the "locals" arent interested in performing (like trashmen, oops, sanitation engs. ). Sometimes not even about money, but some foolish pride.

[Lothar5150]

The rioting at its core is economic. Young men between 16 and 26 with few prospects for the future are your perpetrators, color and religion are irrelevant. If these guys had jobs to go to the everyday and hope for the future they would not have time to riot.

While I was never a big fan of Jacques Chirac I think his attempt to guide France away from socialism is the best long term solution for the French economy. Unfortunately I don’t think he has had a free enough hand in making changes. The tax rate is about 43% of GDP and laws still restrict the work week to 35 hours. That makes an economy extremely inefficient. This creates the 12% unemployment rate. Which incidentally happen to be males between 16 and 26 and largely immigrants? The high unemployment rate also creates the tension between "native" population and immigrants. Naturally the "native" population will feel they deserve jobs before immigrants, regardless of qualification or ability. And this will lead to some discrimination and frustration on the part of immigrant groups.

[maxSaleen]

Amen, Lothar. That's what I should have said.

Productivity per hour is very good in France and while large unionised workforces are inefficient they do keep working hours low which improves standards of living (in that you are not shattered from work).

The French economy does suck, IMHO. Productivity per hour may be high, but overall productivity is still low. GDP per capita, is the best predictor of standards of living.

The tax rate is about 43% of GDP and laws still restrict the work week to 35 hours.

They may as well be socialists/communists.

Probably a ton of featherbeading over there, too. The young want to do something. They are restless. If they can't work, they'll riot.

This is the problem that Saudi Arabia faces. They are looking down the barrel of ~75% unemployment (too lazy to look up exact number, but I'm close). The only way they keep the unemployed youth at bay (to the degree that they do) is by cutting them welfare checks. When/if we ever come up with an alternative to oil, you can kiss that government goodbye. That's really close to the top of my list as to why I'd like to see fuel cells work. They've gone around the globe blowing others up, at some point they'll run around their own country blowing each other up. All things come full circle.

[AngryAlpaca]

purchasing power parity - $28,700 (2004 est.)

[France]

purchasing power parity - $29,600 (2004 est.)

[Britain]

purchasing power parity - $31,500 (2004 est.)

[Canada]

purchasing power parity - $28,700 (2004 est.)

[Germany]

purchasing power parity - $27,700 (2004 est.)

[Italy]

France doesn't seem too atypical at all in the context of the west (US is an anomaly [you'd be hard pressed to tell me, a Canadian, that my living standard is lower than yours]) - their living standards are about the same as everyone else's.

Also, the Canadian tax rate ends up at about 47% of the total income of an average family. Doesn't seem to affect my living standards.

[Lothar5150]

AA this is not about Canada and your country is an anomaly too, that it benefits from wealth by association. Canada sends 85% of its exports to the largest economy on the planet and that country is next door and has a free trade agreement. So there is no economic parody between Canada and France.

BTW do you think that average purchasing power applies to the young men who are rioting? I don’t think it does, clearly they are part of the 12% who are unemployed, with no real prospects for a better future.

[AngryAlpaca]

GDP per capita, is the best predictor of standards of living.

is what I was referring to. My point was merely that France did not have a low productivity rated by GDP per capita. Couldn't care less WHY our economy is good/bad/mediocre.

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

is what I was referring to.

Only for those who work

US unemployment is about 6% Canada is about 7% and France is 12%

[AngryAlpaca]

So you would say, too, that GDP per capita may not be the best measure of a quality of life?

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

So you would say, too, that GDP per capita may not be the best measure of a quality of life?

Again for those who work and Per Capita GDP is a measure but you can not look at that number in a vacuum. During the 70's and early 80's the US had the largest most productive economy on the planet, as it still does today. However, unemployment was high, inflation was high and interest rates hit 18%. Many people were struggling to get by despite the fact that they made more per capital than any other people on the planet

Oh and we had very similar riots and unrest during that period…all young men between the ages of 16 and 26, all from lower economic strata.

[UNDERBYTE]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

[France]
[Britain]
[Canada]
[Germany]
[Italy]

France doesn't seem too atypical at all in the context of the west (US is an anomaly [you'd be hard pressed to tell me, a Canadian, that my living standard is lower than yours]) - their living standards are about the same as everyone else's.

Also, the Canadian tax rate ends up at about 47% of the total income of an average family. Doesn't seem to affect my living standards.

Taking a broader view Canada or most of Europe could not win a war against Bolivia. Allocation of rescources as the US does affords the socialist countries a free ride on defense expenditures, The US bore the brunt of the cold war & now the war on terror.

Whether you agree with our policy or not you enjoy the benefits.

You also ignore the fact that most of the countries you mention have almost a zero growth rate and for example if current trends continue most europeans in ten years will have a per capita 1/2 the US.

Canada is the anomaly with huge natural resources (like energy) that facilitates a functioning economy.

Fact is most of europe can not afford to pay for present or future benefit committments. France has 10% unemployment, a negative birth rate, few bussiness start ups, corrupt goverment. "OLD" Europe is a socialist Europe with the peasant mindset of socialists regimes.

ViVA La` Eurabia

[Incoherent]

[Choke].... LOL.