thoughts on the French troubles ?

[AngryAlpaca]

What's this argument about? My only point is that GDP per capita doesn't explain away these riots at all - unemployment, maybe.

[maxSaleen]

Actually, GDP per capita is actually for every person in a country, employed or not. It is a general indicator of standard of living. Purchasing power parity is not the same thing as GDP per capita, though it is similar.

Canada is an anomoly. Whoever said it had massive natural resources was spot on. This is the primary reason Canada's economy is as good as it is.

I think France's riots are a combination of factors. It would be foolish to say that there is a singualr cause. Pretty much everyone has given valid reasons for the riots, IMHO.

[HAL-9000]

I really don't think their current problems regarding these riots are economic. I think it has more to do with being culturally isolated from the mainstream of the country.

The French Quebecois culture in Canada has kind of done the same thing, but in reverse because there they are the minority. They are not economically isolated or deprived from Canada's success whatsoever from what I can tell; Montreal is about as far from third world as you can get. However, they insist on maintaining their own language, customs, etc. to the detriment of the rest of the country. No one hardly at all speaks French in Vancouver for instance, you hear Chinese more than French. But all the signs are in French and English, because that's the law.

When you are in Montreal, you get the impression that their cultural worldview is that their beautiful Quebec and it's culture is this castle under siege from swarthy unbathed English barbarians. I remember when I was there a lot of people wouldn't talk to you in anything but French, even if they know English, because frankly they do not respect English as a language and look down on you for not knowing French. The street signs are in two languages everywhere in Canada except Quebec, they are only French. They do more than preserve their culture, they want to shove it down your throat, and let you know that theirs is better than yours.

I good analogy for Americans would be if the Amish got a lobby in D.C. to pass a law that made Amish horse buggies street legal on Interstates. The Amish have a cultural "right" to do so, even if it's a pain in the ass for the other 99% of the country.

Make a culture like that the majority of a country, and throw in a minority that not only is isolated, but ethnically and culturally is more than different, but almost alien in comparison, with an equal internal cultural chauvinism, and voila!...rioting.

[BillA]

and a whole lot more I suspect
IF rioters learn that there is anything to be gained, they will redouble their efforts

they are rioting against France thinking it can be destabilized like any LCD, rerhaps this is so - the revolution returns

gonna be lots of 'equality' under Islam

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

What's this argument about? My only point is that GDP per capita doesn't explain away these riots at all - unemployment, maybe.

You’re only looking at how tax rates affect an average of individual purchasing power. The high tax rate also affects the efficacy of an economy. Typically a higher tax rate reduces the money in circulation, thus fewer dollars for employers to pay employees or hire more employees. Money that goes to the government rarely ever creates more wealth it only redistributes wealth. Capitalists create new industries, new markets and new jobs.

[ricecrispi]

Capitalism is a rehash term. Capitalism~Imperialism~Exploitation. That trickle down economy is BS. I think you been listening to one to many Governator election ADs and brain washed by reaganomics that Arnuld is rehashing.

That guy is a joke fooling people into believing keeping tax low will put money into the pockets of the middle class and making them want to invest. God knows the working class doesn't even have enough money to invest. You can gather all the middle class and all their wealth and that doesn't even touch the wealth of the 1%. Real investments happen in the tens and millions of dollars not the middle class $5K-10K mutual funds.

Low taxes and purchasing power doesn't make the the middle class or working class richer, it only bloats their credit cards as they spend most of it anyways. That money makes companies rich and the people who own shares in that company richer.

Anyways, youth unemployemnt in France is 25% from 16- 25 age bracket

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by ricecrispi

Capitalism is a rehash term...

First, I am not even going to defend the merits of capitalism, history has already done that.

As to the issue of taxation. It is quite obvious you are missing the point. This is not necessarily about the middle class investing. I'll try and keep this simple as you obviously don't have a background in economics.

Every time Joe six-pack buys a beer he is paying salaries.

The farmer who grew the wheat
Miner who mined the aluminum
The people who manufactures farm equipment
The people who manufactures mining equipment
The miner who mines steal for the farm equipment and mining equipment
The woman who answers the phone at the mines and the other one at the plant the manufactures farm equipment
How about the guy who works for the petroleum company which makes the fuel and oil for the farm equipment and mine equipment
All the people who work at the electric company who provide power to the plants which manufacture farm equipment and mining equipment.
Then there are the people who work at the smelting plant for steal
How about the people who make the canning equipment for the brewery
Ok now we are on to the brewery itself....

I could go on but I think you get my point. Taxes reduce commerce because people have less to spend. Thus, the economy becomes less efficient the higher the tax burden.

[maxSaleen]

Well put, Lothar.

No point to agruing about the specifics of France's economy. We can all agree that unemployment and lowe(er) purchasing power have impovershed some, and has thus contributed to the riots. The rest, I guess, is cultural.

[UNDERBYTE]

QUOTE=maxSaleen]Well put, Lothar.

No point to agruing about the specifics of France's economy. We can all agree that unemployment and lowe(er) purchasing power have impoverished some, and has thus contributed to the riots. The rest, I guess, is cultural.[/quote]


The economy is only one piece of the equation, you do have the radical element that is inciting things. What these people want are enclaves that are governed only by Arab rule - no French or French laws allowed. Imagine a separate Arab state within the French borders......

Good point Lothar5150 - Show me a left wing economy and I will show you a stagnate or declining economy. History says it all.

What's less obvious to the left is that experiments in PC, Multiculturalism, redistribution of wealth and other social engineering projects only get effectively implemented after a country has had a successful run of capitalism. The trick is not to kill the goose

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by UNDERBYTE

Taking a broader view Canada or most of Europe could not win a war against Bolivia. Allocation of rescources as the US does affords the socialist countries a free ride on defense expenditures, The US bore the brunt of the cold war & now the war on terror.

Whether you agree with our policy or not you enjoy the benefits.

historically France has actually had high defence expenditure as european countries go (though not as high as the UK, or US)
http://www.nato.int/docu/pr/2003/table3.pdf

[9mmCensor]

I think the way the French Government is dealing with it is much different than how de Gualle would have dealt with it.

But again, they seem to be trying to fix the acute issue (riots) rather than the systemic root problems.

[9mmCensor]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

I could go on but I think you get my point. Taxes reduce commerce because people have less to spend. Thus, the economy becomes less efficient the higher the tax burden.

Reduces commerce for who? The rich? Or the poor?

Taxes take from the rich and give to those in need (and those pretending like they need).

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by UNDERBYTE

The economy is only one piece of the equation, you do have the radical element that is inciting things. What these people want are enclaves that are governed only by Arab rule - no French or French laws allowed. Imagine a separate Arab state within the French borders......

I disagree with you on this point. From the interviews I have seen most of the young people feel as though they are treated like second class citizens. Most of them are second generation but feel like they are treated as foreigners. I don’t reject the notion that the young French Arabs and French African kids point to decimation and there prime motivation. However I personally think it is only the surface of a much large problem.

This is a lot like the problems we (the US) had with civil rights in the 60's and 70's. I keep pointing at economics because in the US the major race riots only happened in the poorest urban areas where the perpetrators where poor. Middle class and wealth AA were not setting buildings on fire in 1965.

From my perspective the parallels are very clear. This has more to do with economic inequality than any other factor…why do you think they burn cars?

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by 9mmCensor

Reduces commerce for who? The rich? Or the poor?

Taxes take from the rich and give to those in need (and those pretending like they need).

Joe six pack is not rich. And what is it that rich people do with all that money....they try and make more with it and that creates jobs.

[koslov]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Joe six pack is not rich. And what is it that rich people do with all that money....they try and make more with it and that creates jobs.

Wrong.

This is the classic variant of the trickle down argument. Unfortunately, you do not need to create jobs or treat workers like humans to make money. What makes stocks go up is laying people off, paying people less, cutting benefits, and shipping their jobs overseas as soon as will please shareholders.

Walmart anyone?


Back to France.

Here's what I think is going on.

The economy is tight. The French are racist. The African/Muslim population is very distinct.

-> There will be harassment of immigrant populations by the police.

-> There will be heavy discrimination in the job market.

------> There will be people growing up knowing nothing other than harassment and discrimination. These people will become very embittered.

-----------> There will be minority radical elements that will foment violent dissent.

----------------> People will get violent. Most rioters will just be angry youths trying to lash out at a system that has oppressed them.

Come on, guys, do no try to blame this on religion. You obviously are out of touch with mainstream Islam and cannot differentiate between radicals and the mainstream.

Any idea/belief that lies on a broad spectrum will always have radicals. Heard of radical Christians? KANSAS FFS?!

And the hypothesis that these are tightly organized? I have my doubts. Almost anyone in the EU can get a very inexpensive prepaid cell. It's just all decentralized anger: angry kids calling up their friends to join them until almost everyone has a friend who is one the streets lighting up cars. Viral, flash mob stuff. Just look at the pattern of "infection."

[UNDERBYTE]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

I disagree with you on this point. From the interviews I have seen most of the young people feel as though they are treated like second class citizens. Most of them are second generation but feel like they are treated as foreigners. I don’t reject the notion that the young French Arabs and French African kids point to decimation and there prime motivation. However I personally think it is only the surface of a much large problem.

This is a lot like the problems we (the US) had with civil rights in the 60's and 70's. I keep pointing at economics because in the US the major race riots only happened in the poorest urban areas where the perpetrators where poor. Middle class and wealth AA were not setting buildings on fire in 1965.

From my perspective the parallels are very clear. This has more to do with economic inequality than any other factor…why do you think they burn cars?

Well I can not help but gloat a little to the sanctimonious welfare state that gets it's due, although I am sympathetic to the individual french guy suffering through this.

Why emigrate to a place that is hostile to your presence and offers you no opportunity other than to go on the dole? One stated objective of radical Islam is to recover what they lost during the crusades.

Economic? The whole middle east is one giant poverty zone, They are incapable of fixing themselves and as bad as it is it beats wherever they came from by a couple of magnitudes.

Why should France or any other country have to be obligated to take care of them? And knowing the french they do not like anybody non french to begin with (& I am not sure they even like themselves.) why impose yourself?


I read a arrest report today 53 adult males to 23 underage males. News reports have been saying mostly youth. I am a big skeptic of MSM reports during a crisis I will wait a month or so to see how it washes out (ala` Kattrina) before I form a final opinion.

Latest, greatest in fine cusine from france CAR-B-QUE

[ricecrispi]

koslov has it on the nail.
The french riots is loosely related to economics but it's more about the youths getting jobs than the economy itself. The riots is about disenfranchise groups of people fighting for better treatment and get attention to their cause. They say it's dying down which I am glad because the last thing the world needs is terrorist cells organizing the mob.

lothar you are painting the pretty picture of capitalist economics.

Joe six buys beer, buys car, buys gas, buys phone service, energy, and cable tv and makes companies worldcomm, enron, and adelphia rich . Execs that decided to rip people off and abuse their powers or use some creatative fianicial accounting scheme to rip off investors and nearly sends not only our economy into recession.

From what i learned about rich people is they only care about making more money
otherwise they giveup all their money. There is a reason why 1% of the wealthiest are worth so much more than the rest of us.
companies only care about profits and not jobs.

That is the real world, not some model. You think I got any trickle down effect from the bin laden families investing into the bush family and got them into the white house or when worldcomm, enron, and few other companies went belly up?

A perfect example of trickle down economy is the Dubai islands. It does exist but not in the US and it's exploitative mindset.

I agree on not having high taxes in the US because the government is so dumb they don't know what to do with it and are highly ineffiecient. Other countries have been successful with high levels of taxes and are able to address their issues. It just would never happen in the US

[Angry_Steel]

Skimming a few headlines, breaking it down to basics....

"The riots were triggered by the deaths of two teenagers of African origin who were accidentally electrocuted when they hid in an electricity sub-station, apparently believing they were being chased by police."

Well thats just plain carelessness or outright stupidity....bad things happen to careless or stupid people.

"The authorities deny they were being pursued and an official inquiry is under way. "

Even if they were being pursued...try stopping next time, or suffer the consequences. Everyone has a choice in life of what they are going to do in the next instant.

"Mr de Villepin apologised for a recent incident in which a police tear-gas bomb landed near a mosque, adding to the ill-feeling in poor suburban housing schemes where many Muslims live."

Wow...bummer, lot of damage I suppose from a tear gas bomb

"Another 1,173 vehicles were torched overnight on Monday, bringing the total destroyed to more than 5,900 since the violence began on 27 October."

Hmmm... Wonder if there is going to be apologies forthcoming.

"Youths lobbed petrol bombs at a hospital in the Paris suburb of Vitry-sur-Seine"

Damn Hospitals...always trying to keep the suburban Muslims and Africans under the yoke...BURN THEM ALL!

"gangs torched a school in Sevran, near the capital."

Stupid Schools! Too much homework and not enough recess! BURN THEM ALL!

"in northern France, a nursery school was set ablaze"

Long live the revolution......


Sheep....Baaaaaaaaa! It only takes a couple of dogs to get the sheep moving in the desired direction, and only the dogs know where they want the sheep to go, the sheep could care less. This is just mindless rioting, and the sheep have no idea what it is that they want, but the dogs do.....

Heres some more idiocy...

"The Prime Minister promised more company training schemes in problem areas and an urban renewal programme to rebuild riot-damaged areas and create better housing in run-down areas."

Why were they run down in the first place? Lack of care by the occupants? If its anything like the "Projects" in New Orleans (Goverment Housing) or the similar housing given to the Gypsies here in Spain then I completely understand why it is that it was run down. People are happy when they first get a roof over their heads at the expense of taxpayers dollars, but when its not homey enough anymore, well hell, lets just be bitter and expect more. The "Projects" in New Orleans used to be immaculate, and I know of many current "white" middle class families who got there start in places like that. Now they are havens for crime, look like landfills, and even the police dont go anywhere near them except in packs. Yea, build more, and make sure they have 2 car garages and a white picket fence, because thats the right thing to do.

People have 2 hands and a brain...time to quit complaining and make something constructive out of a difficult situation.

[koslov]

Juan Cole will sort you out:
http://www.juancole.com/2005/11/prob...ders-have.html

Required reading.

[UNDERBYTE]

Originally Posted by ricecrispi

koslov has it on the nail.

That is the real world, not some model. You think I got any trickle down effect from the bin laden families investing into the bush family and got them into the white house or when worldcomm, enron, and few other companies went belly up?

A perfect example of trickle down economy is the Dubai islands. It does exist but not in the US and it's exploitative mindset.

Let's compare the poor in the US to the rest of the world.

87% of the "poor" in the US own a car

94% own at least one color TV

91 % of the "poor" in the US have air conditioning.


The AVGERAGE poor teen today weighs 20 lbs more than the WW 2 soldiers when they enlisted. Looks like they are not starving to death......


The average poor person in the US has a Lifestyle equal to that of a utopian socialist middle class British citizen. Must be that trickle down effect........

The US has spent the sum of 7 tillion dollars since Lyndon Johnson fighting the war on poverty and guess what? The poverty rate has not changed 1% since it's inception. I would like to know when we are going to win that one.......Maybe whe can hire a special prosecuter to find out who stole the money there....

The poverty rate under george bush is actually lower than it was under clinton...
That trickle down effect again......

Socialists teach that making money is evil, that self interest is evil or selfish.

Me, I think it a virture ala` Ayn Rand. A prosperous society is the most moral of societies and does provide for the poor. Facilitating wealth is what makes the US rich, if you want the benefits of socialisim move to Cuba I hear they have some kind of paradise going on down there

Remember the French Heat Wave a couple of years ago? 14,000 old people died, ( more than have been killed in IRAQ)left to bake while everybody else was down frolicking at the beach. The French are selfish socialist turds in my opinion. French economics, politics, culture are as everywhere deeply intertwoven, stucturally it's cracking, I believe that if it keeps on it's present course it's headed for third world status. which would be to bad to see.

[ricecrispi]

Johnson's attempt to revive the rural eastern mountion area couldn't be measured in short term. You think trickle down would reach an area like that by now

I'm sorry but trickle down does exist but it's not the "perfect/beautiful picture" model presented by Lothar which I was debating about.

I'm just being realistic with the reality around me.
------
Yeah America is better off than the rest of the world. Our poor or "middle class" is like lifestyles of the rich and famous when compared to other nations. Somehow people think trickle down starts at the middle class?

When did middle class ever gain control? When did you contribute large amounts of funds to presidentital election? You think middle class taxes cuts and trickle down created Dubai islands or did a rich billionaire start it. You think Dubai islands would exist if the rich didn't come to it? Bush talks about cutting taxes and how we benefit but who does he really want to satisfy? The people who voted for him or the person who invested millions into him? Who got rich, you and me or the rich fatcat who somehow got richer? Really over estimating the consumer power of the middle class is what I'm debating

I don't think a middle class person has influence in the trickle down. We are is part of a cycle, not some beneficial "pay it forward" pyramid scheme that we can decide what to do.

US is the biggest consumers in the world. They want it that way and that is why taxes are low. We benefit from having more money and by buying shit we don't need like 300 hp cars with AWD and the latest BOHO fashion and the newest graphic cards that are to powerful? It's for the good of the world they say because it trickles down. The end rsults is the rich get richer. If we all went poorer and they became richer from it you think they care about us unless it involved their money in the long run?

They use the term "trickle down" to fool us and make it a euthanism for capitalism which masked imperialism which is rooted to word empire. Each definition is more and more benign. In the end it's about exploiting the lower class. It starts with people in the US and trickles down to other countries and the enviroment. Marx got it wrong when he used the term "bourgeois" because all they are is wannabe upperclass. That term original was meant to mock uppper-middleclass who wanted to join the elite club, the 1%-ers. The US is mainly "bourgeois" and all we want to do is pretend we got it good and flash our cars, clothes, and big house and compete with ourselves.

Imperialism. Who did it benefited from imperialism? the "bourgeious" who wanted tea and far east goods or the investors? Imperialism is now corporate capitalism. Who benefits? The rich investors or the middle class?

We indirectly benefit from the capitalist cycle.

[superart]

Why would a government pass a law making the workwek a maximum of 35 hours? If someone wants to work and work hard, let him.

Lazy bastards.

[HAL-9000]

Originally Posted by ricecrispi

Imperialism. Who did it benefited from imperialism? the "bourgeious" who wanted tea and far east goods or the investors? Imperialism is now corporate capitalism. Who benefits? The rich investors or the middle class?

We indirectly benefit from the capitalist cycle.

It is important to note that Imperialism tends to mean the exploitation of everyone else by some dominant power. Now I am sure you can pull up historical examples of that with the U.S., the country's collective middle-east adventures over the past half century are a testament to that. However, I do not believe that corporate capitalism is some new tyranny.

For one, its a two way street. When you look at countries like Japan, South Korea, or Taiwan (pseudocountry?) they are all in their modern forms very much creations of the United States. They are all very successful countries, and they make far more money off of us than we do off of them (trade deficits, anyone?). They are also easily the most progressive, technically sophisticated, and democratic societies in Asia with the possible inclusion of Singapore and Hong Kong.

Western Europe has enjoyed similiar evolution vis a vis the USA ever since the Marshall Plan. The difference is Europe has crystallized its societies at this point. One look at the abysmal Eurozone Constitution's HUNDREDS of pages displays the micromanaging bureacracy inherent in European thinking and approach to problem solving today. Such inertia impedes the ability of a society to be dynamic and competitive. You don't see French products in this country very much because they cannot compete on an international level. This has nothing to do with failing of the French per se, its the country of Voltaire, the Curies, De Broglie, Marquise Lafayette, the list of talent goes on and on. But they have straight jacketed their society to where they can't leverage what they are good at anymore.

[Lothar5150]

koslov- Perhaps you would like to explain to everyone how jobs are created. It well accepted that most jobs are created by business and businesses often get money from individual entrepreneurs and venture capitalists to start operations. Next, if you need to layoff workers it is obvious that the company is having problems. The idea that this action directly raises share prices is churlish. Note Delphi

ricecrispi- My description of commerce within a free market is simply that. It's not rosy or gloomy, it simply works this way. As to as Enron and the like, you will always have corruption. No one is saying you should let capitalism run unchecked; clearly we have and need laws. In fact a system based on human ambition requires ground rules. I don't want you to think I am implying that capitalism is perfect but what human system is perfect?

[ricecrispi]

Capitalism has it's good points and bad ones and same for socialism. In the end the model isn't bad, it's the people and how they use it. Kinda like hows guns don't kill people, it's the person who pulls the trigger that does it.

Coporate capitalism doesn't have to exploit but when it does it exploit people it's simliar to imperialism. Imperialism wasn't about dominanting people, it was about using and exploiting a country's resources. Tyranny was a byproduct

Lothar,
Taxes do help but they can be bad. You insisted taxes are bad when they serve a purpose. If they didn't taxes us we have no army, no schools, no freeways etc etc... Again it's how efficient the government spends and what they spend it on. If they go blowing the money on things we don't need then yeah, it's inefficient. Might be the case for France but might not be for other countries.

It's just bothersome that your arguement is purely being hey, they ain't capitalist that must be the source of the problems type of thinking, very republician like. US wouldn't have survived the depression without socialist policies. There is a time for socialism and a time for capitalism. Government should be a correct balance of both. It seems to me the US is focusing too much on the capitalism part right now.