The future of consumer cooling

[jaydee]

Originally posted by futRtrubL

I don't see wattages declining anytime soon,
Edward

It is already happening. The XP uses less wattage than the T-Bird at the same MHZ. The new P4 2.2 uses less wattage than the old P4 core. It will continue to drop everytime they release a new core. The Hammer will also use less than the XP.

[derraa]

Even if the wattage output decreases, the processor will eventually put out the same heat. 1400 tbird to 1400 xp may be different, but get a higher clock xp, and you have a lot of heat. also, as cores get smaller, like 25 to 18 die, the surface area to suck heat from gets smaller requireing a more eficient cooler

[Brad]

jaydee, thats right but the clock speed is increasing more.

the .13u P4 is supposed to hit 3.5ghz or something like that very easily. maybe much more.

at 3.5ghz it will produce 34% more heat than the max of the .18u cores.


Every new core uses less heat per mhz, but the mhz increases much more to offset that

[futRtrubL]

That's not wattage, that's wattage per MHz. A 486 may have stunk Watts/MHz wise but you could still cool it with what we now call chipset coolers.

Originally posted by jaydee116

It is already happening. The XP uses less wattage than the T-Bird at the same MHZ. The new P4 2.2 uses less wattage than the old P4 core. It will continue to drop everytime they release a new core. The Hammer will also use less than the XP.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by Brad
jaydee, thats right but the clock speed is increasing more.

the .13u P4 is supposed to hit 3.5ghz or something like that very easily. maybe much more.

at 3.5ghz it will produce 34% more heat than the max of the .18u cores.


Every new core uses less heat per mhz, but the mhz increases much more to offset that

What I am getting at is that the faster CPU's are not requiring better HSF's!!! I know what you are saying but listen to what you are saying at the same time. A XP1600+(1400mhz) can use the same cooler as a 1gig T-bird with the the same temp results. The XP2000+(1670mhz) can use the same cooler as the T-Bird 1400.

Just because it is going faster dosn't mean that better coolers will be needed. In fact it will be just the opposite. The faster they are getting the less cooling they are needing per MHZ. It will come to a point that the fastest CPU will only need a HS with no fan!!!

All the CPU manufacturers are working to make the CPU's run faster AND cooler!!! That is one of their goals that they have stated and so far it is happening.

[derraa]

the xps will go faster than the 2000+, thus giving off more heat than a tbird 1400. This then needs a better heatsink.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by derraa
the xps will go faster than the 2000+, thus giving off more heat than a tbird 1400. This then needs a better heatsink.

The current HS's more than handles the T-Bird1400 so no, you do not need better HS's. And furthermore I am more refering to the next line's of CPU's not today's lines, I was just using the T-Bird vrs. XP as an example as it is already starting to happen. Every new core design they put out from now on will run cooler than todays line.

You will see soon enough.

[Brad]

but what about the XP's at 2100+ (which is what they might go to at .18u

the xp2000+ uses 1.6w of energy more than the 1.4ghz tbird. as we switch to .13u it will drop, but then over time it will go back up to 70w +

[jaydee]

Originally posted by Brad
but what about the XP's at 2100+ (which is what they might go to at .18u

the xp2000+ uses 1.6w of energy more than the 1.4ghz tbird. as we switch to .13u it will drop, but then over time it will go back up to 70w +

Yep, so why improve upon current HS that do a pretty good job. And actually they may not get back up to 70watts especially in the Barton core. Time will tell though.

The main reason for water cooling is overclocking, if overcloking gets harder or CPU's get so fast that overclocking will not really help anything then there will be no reason to overclock or especially overclock to the point that you need water cooling. There will always be us overclockers that do it just because though.

It will be interesting in the next few years how all this will play out.

[futRtrubL]

They are only needing the same hsf because heat sink design isn't making any leaps and bounds. To require more expensive/exotic cooling hardware will meen less units sold. To reduce the temp of the processor meens increased production cost, which meens less profit margin unless they pass that on to the consumer. They won't reduce wattage unless they have to. They are only going to .13 because they have to if they want to continue increasing speed to compete. They don't care how much you have to pay for the power, they care about yields, costs and demand. You say that cooling requirements will steadily drop till all we need is passive cooling. Why should the trend towards increased cooling suddenly reverse now?

Edward

[jaydee]

Originally posted by futRtrubL
Why should the trend towards increased cooling suddenly reverse now?

Edward

I didn't say it would reverse. But better yet why should it continue???

Actually I havn't seen any new HSF's that can beat the current best in quite some time. You can only get so cold!!!

Chip makers want cooler CPU because of demand for it also. Especially laptops computers, office computers, and any other type of computers that noise maybe an issue.

Hell in ten years are comps will probably be just a Monitor we talk into!!!

[futRtrubL]

It'll continue because nothing has changed that would cause it to change.
I said that heatsinks aren't getting much better. I'm saying that wattage will stay the same. Not increasing or decreasing generally, wattage will drop each time we go to a new size, then wattage will increase as those cores get higher MHz ratings.

I agree with you on laptops, heat disapation and battery life are major factors holding laptop speed back. But for all intents and puposes they no longer play a role in desktop developement.Processors are already being made solely for laptops and their limitations.
People have always wanted quite computers, but that hasn't stopped fans getting bigger and faster on heatsinks.

Edward

[jaydee]

Originally posted by futRtrubL

People have always wanted quite computers, but that hasn't stopped fans getting bigger and faster on heatsinks.

Edward

Most people don't use but a retail HSF, only the enthusiest's buy all the extra cooling. As long as there is a market for it it will continue to "try" to improve, but I havn't seen anything ground breaking for about 6 month in the cooling department. All the new best air and water coolers all perform about the same as they did 6 months ago. It is reaching it's peak IMO, and will slowly level off as it can only get so good.

We will see. Post back here this time in 2003 and we will see who is right and wrong. Maybe me maybe you.

[futRtrubL]

Ok, I think we are both arguing the same argument. ;']
I thought you were saying that processors would be getting cooler, but I guess not. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Edward

[jaydee]

Originally posted by futRtrubL
Ok, I think we are both arguing the same argument. ;']
I thought you were saying that processors would be getting cooler, but I guess not. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Edward

Well technically they are mhz to mhz. And if they are mhz to mhz cooler now then it will only be time in the way of them actually running cooler overall down the road. And if they do not run cooler over all they will not run hotter in any event as AMD as stated they are going to make them run cooler. So modern cooling can only get so much better. Hopefully overclocking will be an option in future computers so water cooling can still be a factor if desired. I like water cooling myself but there are 100X more people that are scared to death of it and will never consider it.

[futRtrubL]

Oh well I guess we do disagree ;']

I do hope they get cooler.

Edward

[Brad]

Originally posted by futRtrubL
I agree with you on laptops, heat disapation and battery life are major factors holding laptop speed back. But for all intents and puposes they no longer play a role in desktop developement.Processors are already being made solely for laptops and their limitations.
People have always wanted quite computers, but that hasn't stopped fans getting bigger and faster on heatsinks.

Edward

my laptop cpu produces 7w under full load, it has an ATI Radeon 8mb graphics card, those are the two main heat producers, trust me it gets very hot, it has one fan which turns on at 60C, and I've seen it go to 74C (measured by an external probe)

Which is why I wouldn't want an amd laptop right now....

[jaydee]

Originally posted by futRtrubL
Oh well I guess we do disagree ;']

I do hope they get cooler.

Edward

I have no problems with us disagreeing. It isn't a bad thing.

I have went through several CPU's this last year and the Xp1600+ and the Duron 1gig Morgan run about 15% cooler mhz to mhz over the last version of each, so the CPU's are getting cooler, but yes when you jack up the mhz they will return to the highest temp of the last version of the core as of now. Once they start becoming more efficent they will have less wattage and voltage use and run cooler even at higher mhz. It is just a matter of time. IMO.

[Pyrotechnic]

i think we will just see alot of HSF's like we have now, just like joe said, the next few years look boring.

[futRtrubL]

Perhaps if it's cheap enough this will be incorporated in consumer heatsinks.
Posted by 8-ball in the liquid forum. http://www.thermacore.com/thermabase.htm


Edward

[jaydee]

Originally posted by futRtrubL
Perhaps if it's cheap enough this will be incorporated in consumer heatsinks.
Posted by 8-ball in the liquid forum. http://www.thermacore.com/thermabase.htm


Edward

I don't see where you can buy this base from them? It looks to me like they make their own products out of it. I really don't think it will be cheap . I am trying to understand how it was made, their site isn't spacific about it probably for a reason.

[jaydee]

I sent them an e-mail asking for a sample peice and where to get it and the prices. Wiil see when they respond.

[futRtrubL]

Yah, the place looks like it makes and designs stuff for hs makers, high quantity orders. But hsf makers may use them. We can only hope ;']
Tell me what they say, if you can get a sample from them maybe I can too ;']

Edward

[Brad]

alpha do a couple of designs with heatpipes too, although the entire base isn't made out of one, http://www.micforg.co.jp/alhphs.html

[simon]

There are lots of reasons that the newer chips are becoming smaller and now getting to 0.13m. AMD went to the Athlon XP because at any speed past 1.4GHz more than a stock heatsink would be needed. At minimum a good £40 heatsink would have been needed, this would make it to expensive to make because the big computer companies wouldn't spend an extra £40 on a heatsink while trying to sell their cheap PC's. So they reduce to a smaller core. It does the same work at less temp. The actual physical size of the chips is reducing because if you double the size of a 1.4Ghz you will double the heat output and therefore need a more expensive heatsink, which will mean no one will wnat to buy it. I have no doubt that the old athlon could have got doubled , even tripled in speed. This shows that it is heat that is the problem not technology. So when people get oven there fear of watercooling, it will become standard. Then Intel and AMD don't have to focus on the size of core and can give us stupidly fast computers.
To prove this the next Intel chip is supposed to get up to 5GHz. Within 1.5 years.(SWEET).