Sub forum for Radiator Design

[Brians256]

bob, that misses an entirely different issue of competition. Swiftech is materially hurt by giving competitors the result of their hard labor. Bill works darn hard getting that test data, and there's no reason to give the competing companies that do NOT invest in R&D any assistance.

Businesses help their partner not their competitors.

edit: Bill could actually be criminally charged if he publishes that data! It would be a crime against the Swiftech investors if he devalues the company by helping the competition. Economic sabotage/theft is a crime.

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by Brians256

Swiftech is materially hurt by giving competitors the result of their hard labor.

Well, sure - if he published a complete set of data, like he did, say, for the thermochill series of rads - although I don't think that data hurt Swiftech in any way. I was thinking more along the line of a couple of illustrative data points (which they could rebut by publishing their own curves - which we'd then tear up for being badly wrong for any of a number of reasons - or they could just opt to snarl Swiftech in lawyers )

[Marci]

Well, back when the ThermoChill data was done, BillA didn't work for Swiftech - but as far as NOW goes, as long as the data published shows Swiftech at the top of the pack, then there's no harm releasing the data. The trick then becomes ensuring Swiftech's product IS at the top of the pack... we all know and would never accuse Bill of falsifying data to ensure one product comes out better than the other... so going on Bill's own ethics and those stood by by more or less everyone else on here, all Swiftech have to do is get a rad that beats all the others by the figures. The review then shows everyone elses products to be worse.

It's only of detriment to Swiftech if the material released shows Swiftech's own product to be worse than those compared to.

But yes, as pointed out, Bill also has to be careful not to basically work for the competition by giving them data which they need but don't have and don't have the ability to acquire for themselves... this makes the whole comparison review idea very tricky when the person writing the review represents one of the manufacturer's contained.

As en example only, the currently-unrated chinese rads would get significant benefit from having testing data to show... whether it shows them to be better than one or another is irrelevant, having the testing data to start with counts for a lot. It's better than an item with NO testing data whatsoever imo.

Next problem - to say one rad is better than another, one must show proof. The only way to prove this is to rate all rads concerned and show how the rating was achieved. Suddenly you're handing over on a plate the one thing the competition lacks.

The simple solution is for an independant party to review ALL the rads in question. However, for that data to be of use, it must meet a certain standard.

Back to the good old problem - plenty of rads, but no-one out there to independantly undertake reviewing them all, whilst still being able to produce work to the standard required.

So, long n' short of it - the data can be shared under certain circumstances. Bill is well aware of what the watercooling community requires to make it's decision, and I have no doubt that he will provide it, but only when the right set of circumstances occurs. This simply becomes a case of, from a tied-to-a-company stance, if you want to write a comparative review of your own products and do so honestly, your product must be the best out of those reviewed, literally. Until it is, don't publish the review. Keep tweaking the product until it is, THEN publish the review. S'always better to have a target to beat when designing something, so comparative reviewing becomes an important and lengthy part of an already lengthy R&D > Fabrication process.

waffling - done!

[BillA]

spot on as usual Marci
"An Appraisal of Radiator Performance" in the works
and indeed it took a BUNCH of tweaking

[Ruiner]

Originally Posted by Marci

Bill is well aware of what the watercooling community requires to make it's decision,

Which part of the community? Those here or the 'bling bling', 'cheap as a used heater core' crowd? heh heh.

[Marci]

and indeed it took a BUNCH of tweaking

Can imagine...! Explains (predictably) your silence in terms of data being published since you started at Swiftech... and answers a few questions from a while ago too

Look forward to it, altho I can loosely predict the outcome at the moment, hence our own R&D work for the past 6 months... again of which you're well aware... Twas all getting a bit stale...

I'm enjoying this game at the mo...! At the end of the day, it can only serve to make better rads available to the public, with the data to back them up so that folks can put their confidence in them. S'still a shame you're not allowed to do any independant work anymore tho

[Marci]

Which part of the community?

Neither... the part of the community that likes cold hard facts, no matter which genre they fall into... which has the added advantage of including big businesses. The presentation of the facts (thanks to BillA) landed ThermoChill their contract in cooling laser eye surgery systems. They would have gone with another rad, if any other company could produce the data required for them to make their decision. As it goes, at the time the only rads with comprehensive technical data available for them were ours...

Same goes for folks like Asetek and the big OEMs who currently bundle HWLabs products. To land that kinda contract required data and figures, not just reputation and heresay.

Independant companies knocking out their kits don't want figures, just want to beat the price of joe blogg's kit... hence you see the Chinese rad popping up everywhere... it's cheap. For a particular part of the market, cheap wins. For other parts, it doesn't. For some parts, most expensive wins (designer label crowd).
It's easy to bundle the Chinese rad with the-usual-suspect pumps, and a decently performing block and have quite a tidy kit out there that beats the competition when it comes to pricetag. It's not so easy proving it's performance. Therefore, you cannot guarantee it's performance.

If you want guaranteed performance, which is the market we're looking at, you HAVE to have facts and figures on which to base that guarantee. We can say a HE120.1 WILL remove 200w if certain conditions are met, and we can define those conditions. Without the figures, that WILL becomes a MAY. Some people want more than maybe-s, and those people are the ones that ThermoChill would prefer as customers. They're the ones that tend to know a) what they want and b) what they're talking about and c) what they're doing.

[BillA]

am extremnely glad to hear of that outcome
I would that all who 'invest' in the characterization of their products have success
- and those riding the coat tails fail

but rads are simply more difficult to test
is not the same shit happening with wbs ?

[Brians256]

Originally Posted by unregistered

spot on as usual Marci
"An Appraisal of Radiator Performance" in the works
and indeed it took a BUNCH of tweaking

Glad to hear that you are still tweaking for the value you deliver to the customer instead of just the manufacturing price. Having seen some of the discussions on what it takes to meaningfully test a radiator... I very much appreciate the work you are doing.

[Jag]

What will this cat and mouse game bring to consumers and industry?
New products, more investment in R&D, ultimately innovation?
Right now it seems that manufacturers are keen to select some designs, evaluate the expected performance and buy the rights for a particular block or whatever, instead of coming out with something new.
In some cases even copy or adapt the design.
Saves a lot of effort, and if the product already earned the people's reputation for quality or performance the numbers play a secondary role.

Furthermore, if a manufacturer boasts some performance claim he has to back it up, but if he plays a low profile and keeps his mouth shut while selling loads, no questions are asked by anyone, even the buyers.Strange?

Economical survival and low cash to invest in R&D, is a serious limitation of new developments.
Opening subsidiaries in China and contracting there proves that the only concern is economics and the sales numbers. Then China behaves like another imitator and everybody yells.

A second "NAFTA"?

[BillA]

words in the wind jag
you seem to be posting about which you do not know

Marci is posting re his new rads
Willie is posting re his new rads
Swiftech is posting re their new rads
no mfgr ignores economics
and there will always be consumers who select based on price alone
- only engrs refuse to buy a product w/o specs

I suggest you answer your own post