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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 02-07-2002, 08:28 PM   #1
simon
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Default Possible good idea, please have read

I think some manufactures should have a think about making an even more watercooling friendly board. If the board was redesigned to have either the cpu at the bottom of the case or on a very small separate board to be placed at teh bottom of the case this would make it safer as any leaks would have a smaller affect, not leak all over the other components, easier to avoid condensation problems as this samll area could be pre treated in protective coating. This would alll lead to an easier time for us and entice more people into watercooling as there would be significantly less risk. This extra board could be independantly replaceable. Also chip manufactures could produce chips without the circuits showing so direct die cooling could be easily implemented. If you go to the general forum, read my post esentailly, less fear of water in computer, more people use, AMD and INTEL can be more concerned with speed than heat. Ridiculus speeds available cheap soon. The current chips can go faster but not without more heat, but the heat level now is at maximun heatsink capacity, if watercooling was standard in every system I would be using a 5GHz chip while writing this to you.
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Unread 02-07-2002, 10:35 PM   #2
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simon, they do make a board that has the processor mounted at the bottom, I do beleiv eits a watx. basicly its an atx inverted, but there is no daughter card for the processor. Hell just turn your case upside down and flip your cd roms.

as for the main stream watercooling system, I dont see that anywhere in the near future. Amagine COPMPAQ trying to ship that!
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Unread 02-07-2002, 10:50 PM   #3
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<sarcasm>

Hello, can I drink the water in my computer if I gets thirsty??

huh??
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Unread 02-07-2002, 10:50 PM   #4
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But thats exactly my point, compaq will seel only what the majority of people want. If watercooling was mainstream and safe then AMD and INTEL would be able to get very easily to high speeds, they can do them now but only with high temperatures, if this wasn't a problem well they would have a field day releasing 5Ghz chips in the next few months INtel are planning 5Ghz for 1.5 years from now anyway(they could be here now). If heat wasn't a problem the chips would be twice as big, twice as fast, it really is this simple. At the moment speed increase is slow as new size core has to be implemented to keep heat low. For instance imagine in the new Northwood was standard everywhere with watercooling and twice the size. We're talking 4.4Ghz easy no overclocking. They would have twice the output of watts but watercooling can deal. This is serious and not exagerated.
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Unread 02-07-2002, 10:54 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fixittt
as for the main stream watercooling system, I dont see that anywhere in the near future.
I don't see it happining at all!!! I actually see it going backwards unfortuantly. CPU's are not getting hotter as they get faster anymore. The XP2000+ runs around the same temp as the T-Bird 1400. AMD XP2200 with be the .13 micron chips and will run even cooler yet, but will end up close to the XP2000 temps when it maxes out. Water cooling is for overclocking and more quite PC's mainly and the majority of users use a quite stock HSF that do not bother them and never heard of the term overclocking. So water cooling will never become mainstream IMO. But for the next 5-10 years it will still have a use for overclockers and people who want a more silent PC.

Mobo makers could care less about water cooling. There isn't enough people interested in water cooling for them to even remotely think about it.

And the CPU is located where it is now days because it is close to the power supply and it makes it more stable because there is less line noise in shorter wires and for air cooling porposes. They figure that if the heat can rise already above all other components then that is a good thing.

No way will they waste the money on the engineers to make such a board that not enough people will buy to make up for the R&D.

Anyway water really dosn't pose a big a threat as people think to mobos. I accedentally drenched my mobo a few times while it was on and nothing happend(make sure your hose in the resivore is secure when you are messing around ). If you dribble water on it blow it off or wait for it to dry. Hell my intire socket was full of water for who knows how long before I turned the comp off and took the block off to realize the hose was slightly leaking. The board isn't going to explode when a drop of water touches it.

It will not be untill a big manufature like DELL starts selling water cooled comps that people will start to realize water cooling is not the devil. But I doubt that will ever happen.

Untill then us small guys will struggle to make it work. there is enough people interested for a few small outfits to make some money with it. www.dangerden.com hit it at the right time with the right products and they are and will do good for a while.
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Unread 02-07-2002, 10:58 PM   #6
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And on top of that it would cause MAJOR problem for manufactures to provide customer support/service for water cooled rigs. And people do not want to have to maintain a water cooling system.

it would be a huge liability for manufatures to deal with.
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Unread 02-07-2002, 11:04 PM   #7
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http://store.yahoo.com/colorcase-store/millennium.html

there is an inverted ATX yet they still call it an ATX... basically just an atx flipped upside down

my friend has this one and its really nice
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Unread 02-07-2002, 11:40 PM   #8
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I'm trying to decide if you read my posts at all or just read the title and wanted your name up on it.
My whole intire point is that currently if you took any chip whatever using whatever sized technology, lets take the northwood as an example. It has however many transistors in it. If you double its side the amount of work it can do will double and the amount of heat output WILL, yes i said WILL, also double. So as you can see faster does equal hotter. As watercooling isn't standard normal heatsinks cant cope with this heat. So to get past this problem and improve performance, AMD and INTEL create small lower power structured transistors to reduce the temperature at the higher speed. If watercooling was standard the same speed is available very cheaply on an older doubled sized chip as the much more expensive new small chip. My point is DELL would sell watercooling as long as the public wanted it. The chip off the board WILL, yes I said it again,it WILL be safer(I know that a mobo can handle getting wet, sometimes and sometimes it can't) so the public will be more likely to accept it as standard, this will enable AMD and INTEL to improve speeds instantly.
ANyway, Texas Instruments are already producing 0.09 micron transistors.(SO guys buy up the stock now).
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Unread 02-07-2002, 11:49 PM   #9
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sorry to anyone else who actually did read my other posts, but I thought I should restate it more clearly.

An addiation before anybody brings it up, if this happened then there would be an imediate jump in speeds, quite possibly double but then it would go along as usual, becasue watercooling is only so effective.
Of course there is always peltiers to add to systems and upgrades to othercooling. Basically my theory has already been proved. Computers use to have no heat sinks, no cooling of any kind. Then BAM heatsinks, jump in CPU speed, BAM again fans, and case fans, copper heatsinks, 1GHz possible, you guess it, next comes BAM watercooling 5Ghz possible, then probably unreactive liquid submersed cooling BAM 300Ghz possible in 2098, shit I'll be dead then. Anyway my point, when current chip sizes double then it will stlil be a case of waiting for the new transistors to increase speed again.



Anyway if watercooling did become standard then people wouldn't want to upgrade that for a good few years so no big jump in speed until then.
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Unread 02-07-2002, 11:53 PM   #10
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Why would it be a support thing for manufactures, if as I said they were made totally safe by being in bottom of case then leaks wouldn't be a big problem. Buying a new pump every now an then, and I think people will have less trouble with linking up a rad and waterblock and a pump than they do with Microsoft Windows. If they are still making a profit then I think mobo manufactures would probably manage.

Also wouldn't you like to see Bill Gates struggling to bring out a windows to utilize that power, he might just get upset, cause his brand new windows XP would be totally useless and he would loss a bunch of money.
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Unread 02-07-2002, 11:57 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by simon
I'm trying to decide if you read my posts at all or just read the title and wanted your name up on it.
My whole intire point is that currently if you took any chip whatever using whatever sized technology, lets take the northwood as an example. It has however many transistors in it. If you double its side the amount of work it can do will double and the amount of heat output WILL, yes i said WILL, also double. So as you can see faster does equal hotter. As watercooling isn't standard normal heatsinks cant cope with this heat. So to get past this problem and improve performance, AMD and INTEL create small lower power structured transistors to reduce the temperature at the higher speed. If watercooling was standard the same speed is available very cheaply on an older doubled sized chip as the much more expensive new small chip. My point is DELL would sell watercooling as long as the public wanted it. The chip off the board WILL, yes I said it again,it WILL be safer(I know that a mobo can handle getting wet, sometimes and sometimes it can't) so the public will be more likely to accept it as standard, this will enable AMD and INTEL to improve speeds instantly.
ANyway, Texas Instruments are already producing 0.09 micron transistors.(SO guys buy up the stock now).
I read your whole post and it dosn't make any logical sence business wise or other wise, and further more you do not know if those chips will run at higher wattges. CPU's can only handle so much wattage before the internals fry no matter what kind of cooling you have. And on top of that water cooling can only go so far to cool a CPU. Even with water cooling you will not be able to double the wattage of a current CPU and still cool it enough before it eats itself. Water cooling is better than air but not that much better. And manufactuers are not going to take the liability of water cooled systems. Pumps dying, hoses leaking, water needing changing, radiators clogging, ect... It will not happen. They already have enough problems without having to worry about water cooling parts. Nottomention it would be nearly impossible to mass produce water cooled computers.

Slip in to reality. If this was that easy it would already be that way. And further more CPU manufactuers do not want to increase the speed of CPU's that much. They want to drag each speed out as long as possible to make money. if they wanted their CPU's to be water cooled they would push it.
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Unread 02-08-2002, 12:00 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by simon
Also wouldn't you like to see Bill Gates struggling to bring out a windows to utilize that power, he might just get upset, cause his brand new windows XP would be totally useless and he would loss a bunch of money.
That is the most sensless statement yet. No matter what the speed you still need an OS to run a computer.
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Unread 02-08-2002, 12:08 AM   #13
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this thread hurts my head.. im going home
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Unread 02-08-2002, 12:11 AM   #14
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Hi Simon

5GHz cool without a fan

... no comments ...
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Unread 02-08-2002, 12:13 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by simon
and I think people will have less trouble with linking up a rad and waterblock and a pump than they do with Microsoft Windows.
People buy pre builts for a reason!!! So they do not have to put anything together. They want to hit the power button and it works. They do not want to have to hook up a hose, pump,rad, put water in, bleed the air out, maintian anyting ect..

If any of that went wrong the manufactuer would hear about it with many many RMA's and pissied off customers.

And if these speeds where possible out of theese current CPU's why are overclockers not even coming close without liquid nitrogen???
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Unread 02-08-2002, 12:15 AM   #16
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simon, quite simply, it isn't happening.

'nuff said
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Unread 02-08-2002, 12:15 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by GigaFrog
Hi Simon

5GHz cool without a fan

... no comments ...
Thank you!!! I have been saying this for a while now with no one beliving me that CPU's can and will run cooler at higher mhz!!!
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Unread 02-08-2002, 12:27 AM   #18
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GigaFrog, thats why I used 5 Ghz as example because its not to far away.

Brad, I know I know, they won't do it but theory is sound, and if they weren't so scared of change then it would work. If enough people wanted watercooling they yes but they won't. I think it will happen but in a few years when even normal hardware sites are using it to test eveything.

jaydee116, I stated in my other post that there would be 5Ghz in a couple of years, so again well done for your reading ability.

What I'm saying is at some point watercooling will be standard, and when it is, in two years that 5Ghz chip will be able to double in size and be a 10Ghz chip. get the point. good now get over it.

Can anyone give a reason as to why they can't do this, not won't do it but can't do it.

Viva la revalution, it all starts here,

I also never said they would run without operating systems,
i said,and jaydee, read this carefully,

Also wouldn't you like to see Bill Gates struggling to bring out a windows to utilize that power, he might just get upset, cause his brand new windows XP would be totally useless and he would loss a bunch of mone

see that word strugling, as in he would have to put his hand in his pocket and give us a system that works not make us put our hand in our pocket to buy something he makes us need.

Can someone else explain this to him if he still doesn't get it.
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Unread 02-08-2002, 12:34 AM   #19
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corrosion
pump failure
leaks

corrosion will block up your pipes if you leave it for a long time, think 5 years

many people own a computer for 5 years without playing with it. If the pump dies, whats the chance they'll know?

In a normal oem computer case you will have the psu fan and the hsf setup in a way that if one dies, it doesn't matter too much. thats more difficult with pumps.

what if someone decides to move their computer, and gives it a bump, or something like that.
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Unread 02-08-2002, 12:37 AM   #20
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Jaydee, why are you still on with higher speed less heat.
What everyone has known for a while now is this. 1.4Ghz Athlon TB gets pretty hot, about as hot as Athlon XP 1900+ so I'm told. But the Athlon Xp's that come out at maybe 2400+ or something like that will be hotter and therefore may or may not get released untill there manufacturing process improves.
Does anyone know what AMD roadmap for this year is Hammer in Q3and Q4?


Why do you think no-one knows this. Its the entire reason for us not having that 5Ghz now, we have to wait fot the .09 micron cores of the Itaniums, what everyone else has been pointing out to you in the other topics is that, given the same size.13 or.15micron core higher Mhz = more heat. Its kind of stupid to compare different cores, its a little similar to saying a k6-2 400Mhz is hotter than an Athlon TB at 400Mhz would be, its just different technology. Get over that to.
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Unread 02-08-2002, 12:42 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by simon
Jaydee, why are you still on with higher speed less heat.
What everyone has known for a while now is this. 1.4Ghz Athlon TB gets pretty hot, about as hot as Athlon XP 1900+ so I'm told. But the Athlon Xp's that come out at maybe 2400+ or something like that will be hotter and therefore may or may not get released untill there manufacturing process improves.
Does anyone know what AMD roadmap for this year is Hammer in Q3and Q4?


Why do you think no-one knows this. Its the entire reason for us not having that 5Ghz now, we have to wait fot the .09 micron cores of the Itaniums, what everyone else has been pointing out to you in the other topics is that, given the same size.13 or.15micron core higher Mhz = more heat. Its kind of stupid to compare different cores, its a little similar to saying a k6-2 400Mhz is hotter than an Athlon TB at 400Mhz would be, its just different technology. Get over that to.
Did you read the article? It is on the .13micron process (that intel uses now) and it is NOT that far in the future. Amd will use the .13 micron process in the XP2200+ which will drop the heat back down to the T-Bird 1400 levels!!!

Enough said, it is not worth saying anymore as you are not listening to anything here.
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Unread 02-08-2002, 12:45 AM   #22
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it would be nice to see the public all switch to some type of nix box.... but i actually see that happening way before the public would go water cooling... regardless of how technology pans out....
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Unread 02-08-2002, 12:47 AM   #23
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People used to upgrade every 5 years but not anymore, a £200 pound computer now is better than a computer from 5 years ago.
Setting up a watercooling system is essentially pushing the pipes onto the fittings, I have to push in like 15 or 20 wires to hook my computer up, not a huge difference.

You don't seem to realise that not everybody would buy them, not yet anyway, even if it went mainstream not everyone right now has more than a £5 heatsink on, your also assuming everyone is stupid, and that people wouldn't think do I want watercooling with itto get the superfast chip. Yes, then they ca nbe tooled you will have to do some maintainance on it. Ok.

Again Jayydee you haven't been reading, why haven't people hit those speeds with liquid N, because as I have stated the chips could be made twice the size if heat wasn't an issue and the could hit twice the speed.
The chips people are LIQUID N cooling aren't the chips that they aren't making, surprisingly enough!!!!!!!
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Unread 02-08-2002, 12:49 AM   #24
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but ppl ARE stupid... well not stupid.. they just know nothing about computers and dont want to.. trust me i work IS
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Unread 02-08-2002, 12:55 AM   #25
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BRAD

As you well know if a heatsink fan stopped working on a 1.4 Ghz athlonTB it would burn out very quickly.

Also with more and more case fans all new computers, and I mean all will need maintaining, DUST is now a big problem, more airflow more dust, even with filters, which would need to be emptied. If people don't do some maintainance from now on they will all fry their chips so maintainance is unavoidable, so why can't it be watercooling maintainance, silicon tubing doesn't need to be replaced often. We are also talking very simple cooling systems. also if setup like I said leaks wouldn't matter, and if at bottom of case wouldn't leak ontoanything on the mobo.
In regardes to manufactures not bothereing with this mobo idea, almost none of the boards we all use find them selves in normal OEM computers for the public. They are overclockers boards made for us. If we would prefer to have the cpu like that they would find a way. Do we need voltage control, no you say, but there it is, purely for us overclockers.
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