New Laing 12VDC pump: the DDC

[BillA]

ok
"not yet availiable" sound appropriate ?

then, anticipated price . . . .

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by Roscal

It's an Email from my contacts from Laing (Germany)

i guess it equates to the price Cathar was quoted for a D4 from laing then???

[Razor6]

Originally Posted by pauldenton

i guess it equates to the price Cathar was quoted for a D4 from laing then???

How much was that?

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by Razor6

How much was that?

US$95 i believe (+shipping and tax if any)
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...ighlight=laing

[Jag]

How's the "not yet availiable" status for this pump Bill?
Any indication?

[BillA]

still the same

[ralf_c]

seems like an ideal pump for a silent loop, how quiet is it compared to the ehiem 1048?

[dima y]

Ok someone has to pick up the ball with this one and run to the endzone. There has to be something that can be done to bring this to the market.

[WarlordBB]

Originally Posted by dima y

Ok someone has to pick up the ball with this one and run to the endzone. There has to be something that can be done to bring this to the market.

Yea, I'm about to build a 3/8" system and this seems like _the one_.

Well, as long as it is quieter than the MCP650.

[Turbokeu]

DDC page on Laing's website is online again...

CD

[Jag]

Does this mean, that Swiftech is going to announce the availability of this pump to the public?
Bill, any forecast on this?

[Uncle`BuZZ]

http://www.cooling-masters.com/artic...p?id=22&page=2

[pHaestus]

It's nice to deal with Mr. Laing directly I guess

[Elmmx5]

What an incredibly useful and relevant article that looks like, I just wish I could read it.

[BillA]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

It's nice to deal with Mr. Laing directly I guess

referring to whom ? (not Roscal for he has not)
Oliver Laing is a terribly competent Germain engineer who knows his products, competition, and applications
every meeting is informative and Laing (the company) is responsive to our inputs; difficult to imagine a better supplier

translate the article here
http://www.google.com/language_tools

[SLI_Fallen]

Originally Posted by Jag

Does this mean, that Swiftech is going to announce the availability of this pump to the public?
Bill, any forecast on this?

My guess would be apple is sucking them all up at the moment for the G5. Purely a shoot-from-the-hip guess.

On a personal note, I am shocked and amazed to find such a competent and informative board here. I have many MANY questions, and must admit, I am more than slightly intimidated by the level of expertise here. (Like the various engineers from the companies designing this stuff, Yikes!)

I too, an quite interested in this product.

[pHaestus]

Sorry for lack of clarity. I just meant that cooling-masters has no NDA or wait on product testing/announcements presumably because they got their DDC directly from Laing. I thought in one of the previous articles they mentioned "Mr. Laing"; maybe my reference to that was too obscure.

[Uncle`BuZZ]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Sorry for lack of clarity. I just meant that cooling-masters has no NDA or wait on product testing/announcements presumably because they got their DDC directly from Laing. I thought in one of the previous articles they mentioned "Mr. Laing"; maybe my reference to that was too obscure.

It's not "Mr. Laing" but an employee of Laing Germany. It's a good contact, but rosco could tell you more about it.

[bobkoure]

I know what 1046 and 1048 Eheim pumps sound like - which made the pump sound recording in that cooling-masters article very useful.
Bill, you mentioned that it was only "pretty quiet" (sorry - might be misquoting here). Did that mean "not dead silent"? - Is this recording representative of the sample(s) you've had your hands on?
Anyway, if this recording isn't misleading I definitely want one.
Bob

[BillA]

that recording is not to my taste at all
which D4 is that, the original ? (should explain why we did not wish to sell it)
- the present ones don't make that noise, different pitch and lower volume
the DDC was/is not isolated (something is resonating)
no exp with those Eheim models

jd - your wakeup call here

any 3600 RPM pump not isolated from the chassis will 'buzz', and no high head pump of this type can be "dead silent"; but appropriately isolated they can be inaudible
also in a fanless case in a 20dBA environment ?? - no data but doubtful

[Roscal]

Already explained that in mails but I do it again.
The D4 comes from DangerDen, please stop to compare it each time with Swiftech products as a unique design because it's not. Dan said me that it was a little different from yours (it's a muffled one he said too but I don't have both to compare them). But now, he said he will receive the same as Swiftech. Mine has a MFR of 08/2004. Here is his explanation from mail :

All the newer pumps will be the same both ours and the Swiftech pumps, Laing was doing different things with the pumps but not any more other than trying to quiet them down a bit more.

Nothing is resonating in the foam box because pumps are put on another piece of foam very soft to avoir all vibrations. If you had read carefully you should see that I introduced a restriction in the discharge tubing (I pinch it slowly) to go to 0 flowrate and then I relax it to go again to the "max" flowrate with almost no restriction (just a tubing). So it's normal that the noise grows up because DC pumps spin faster under high restriction (~3900tr/min), it's not a resonation sound with lower frequency... DDC is very quiet like Eheim and almost inaudible in a case with appropriate considerations !
Pay attention to the speakers volume, it must be very low to join the reality because pumps are very quiet, except D4. No dB measurements sorry, it requires good materia and technicl to capture such low sounds and I don't have any.

[bobkoure]

Bill, is it the methodology of the recording you don't like?
Without the $$$ for an anechoic chamber, ultra sensitive mike(s) and spectrum analyzer this seemed like a very sane way to come up with a comparison. I would guess that most folks who are water cooling PCs, and who are interested in quiet operation, have at least one 1046 or 1048 in their history. The 1046s in particular are nearly inaudible. Yes, they shake a bit, and can resonate a case, but Roscal made an effort to eliminate/control this. Yes, there were a number of things not controlled for ( I can think of: differing weight/base area ratios - so differing vibration isolation; differing axes of rotation - so possible different "lobes" of high/low noise emanating - issue if microphone directionally sensitive; microphone (or recording equip't) response not "flat" across frequency ranges at low levels; possible transmission of sound from the inlet/outlet hoses - would have used the softest silicone I could have found) but they are all fairly minor. But my major question was, indeed, around the D4. I've never herd one, so I'm going on indirect evidence. You had mentioned that they were around 30dB and there isn't enough difference in volume between the 1046 and D4 to account for a 7 to 10 dB difference in sound levels - so maybe some sort of automatic gain was on (?) making this recording inappropriate for judging relative sound levels.

Roscal - thanks for going to all this work! You've got me working on my very rusty (haven't used it for 30+ years except to order beers on some carribean islands) French - and it wasn't very good to start with And thanks for including a link to procooling. If nothing else you're making folks here a bit more sensitive to what non-English speaking folks go through trying to be part of this community...

[BillA]

Thanks for the clarification Roscal
FYI all Laing pumps with a manufacture date of 7/04 or later are the same
I followed your procedure and set the volume of the D4 to a level that I thought was representative,
and under the listening conditions the other 3 pumps were inaudible

so what were the "listening conditions" ?
the 'source' was a pair of stereo desktop speakers each with a 4" speaker + a tweeter
my wife's mini tower is on the desktop with a single fan in the psu, making too much noise apparently

re the D4, again, it has a spike at 4k Hz - which is a somewhat 'high' frequency and easily recognized once heard
Roscal's recording seems to have dropped this pitch somewhat (??), or my speakers ??

and yes bk, like fans the sound emanation is not uniform; sides about the same while the top and bottom are each different
while a defined procedure will address some of this, it is the 'calibration' of the listening environment that is troublesome
- and the ratty sound coming out of 2" speakers, or 4" + tweeters, etc. etc.

if something is better than nothing then, as JoeK would say, its all good
I have reservations

[killernoodle]

Is there any indication from where the sound is coming from? Is it an mechanical sound or does it have something to do with the shape of the impellor?

[Roscal]

Sound comes from the movement produced by the current shape in coils. In a D4, current is sent with a rectangular signal (simple electronic) whereas in the DDC the current is sinusoidal -> no more brutal transitions creating vibrations, it's a smoother rotation but electronics is more complex. Mechanical design in a DDC is the same of a D4, just a change of electronics (to simplify).

I put the DDC impeller in the D4 to test that fact but the noise is almost the same ->no impeller problem.