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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 08-19-2004, 04:09 PM   #101
myv65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
That article needed a lot more beef and supporting information in my opinion. You guys can do better. Not horrible but not enough explanation for some points and NO data to support "rules of thumb". I'm sorry I didnt get a chance to read this thread earlier; didn't realize an article for OCers was being formulated in here.
Agreed. Welcome to the wonderful world of technical writing. There are a few ways to approach tech writing. Yours (though generally quite accurate) is the "I sound like I know my stuff so I'm right" method. It'll work with people that are too stupid to think for themselves and haven't already been brain-washed with false impressions. Honestly I'm afraid there isn't much use in "teaching" such a group.

There's the over-the-top with theory and data approach. The only ones that will understand are those who already could figure it out, if they cared.

There's the slightly dumbed-down, full of analogies, spoon-fed-but-backed-up-with-real-science method. It doesn't get overly technical, can be understood by those with a brain who care to learn, and offers solid technical background and/or real life (and quality) data. I'm a tad biased toward this last approach as anyone who has read some of my stuff knows.

No matter the approach, resign yourself to one simple fact. Regardless of how right you are, how well you prove it, and how well you present it, someone will still argue that you are wrong. Such is life.

Personally I got a little burned out explaining the same concepts time and again at varied forums. Sure, lots of people took my words to heart and actually learned something, but I could only do it so long. A full time job and three kids kinda took the wind out of my writing sails.

I wish you best of luck in your endeavor for though your goals are noble your task is unending.
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Unread 08-19-2004, 04:10 PM   #102
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Quote:
I'm rather surprised about your arrogant attitude. I'm sure that our success in this field must be pure luck, as we obviously don't have a clue and thermodynamics... Thanks for learning us!

Thanks,
André
HAHAHA! I know very litle about thermaldynamics yet I made a pretty decent block in the R-Type. Trial and error + luck + money to burn can certainly put you in a success bracket. Copying the white watter type of tactics helps to... Who is he calling errogant? Should look in the mirror.

Also I disagree with this:
Quote:
Myth: You can tell how a waterblock will perform just by looking at it.
Reality: The only way to know for sure is to run a highly calibrated test with a well thought out method.
Sure you can't tell exact performace but you can get a pretty damn good idea. I have yet to be proven wrong on my visual critiques of blocks. Experience is certainly helpfull though.
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Unread 08-19-2004, 04:13 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
That article needed a lot more beef and supporting information in my opinion. You guys can do better. Not horrible but not enough explanation for some points and NO data to support "rules of thumb". I'm sorry I didnt get a chance to read this thread earlier; didn't realize an article for OCers was being formulated in here.

that's what your wikipedia or FAQ or whatever is for

if I went into everyhting in detail, it would have been a month at least, and way too long for a single OCers article

It was a good first article of it's kind as far as I'm concerned, though there's a lot of room for improvement.

Also, realize the target audience of OCers...I've already gotten emails from people not understanding the simple physics about pump inlet ot outlet delta T

weak target audience is no excuse for misinformation, and I firmly believe there is no misinformation. Rules of thumb are just that, and not concrete. The rule of thumb about pump heat into water is supported by Cathar's data, which shows the MCP600 at 9w (of 12 consumed) into the water and the D4 at 14-15w (of 20 consumed) into the water.

thanks for the encouragement, though, pH
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Unread 08-19-2004, 04:20 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenman100
that's what your wikipedia or FAQ or whatever is for

if I went into everyhting in detail, it would have been a month at least, and way too long for a single OCers article

It was a good first article of it's kind as far as I'm concerned, though there's a lot of room for improvement.

Also, realize the target audience of OCers...I've already gotten emails from people not understanding the simple physics about pump inlet ot outlet delta T

weak target audience is no excuse for misinformation, and I firmly believe there is no misinformation. Rules of thumb are just that, and not concrete. The rule of thumb about pump heat into water is supported by Cathar's data, which shows the MCP600 at 9w (of 12 consumed) into the water and the D4 at 14-15w (of 20 consumed) into the water.

thanks for the encouragement, though, pH
Yeah, make it to detailed and most people will get boared and flip back to their favorite porn site.
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Unread 08-19-2004, 04:41 PM   #105
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Let's break out the evidence:

Fact one is supported by Bill's radiator testing here: http://thermal-management-testing.com/ThermoChill.htm

Fact two is covered by this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Thompson
Take a look at the chart below by Bill Adams. You will note for a typical setup, the water temperature after the waterblock does not go up more than 0.5C. Serial plumbing makes sense.

load W . . flow . . . die T . . bp T . . inlet T . outlet T . C/W . . Btus*. . Watts . %eff
45.00 . .2.0/7.57 . . 36.5 . . 27.1 . . 25.00 . . 25.08 . . 0.256 . . 144 . . . 42.2 . . 94
45.01 . .1.5/5.68 . . 36.7 . . 27.3 . . 25.00 . . 25.11 . . 0.260 . . 148 . . . 43.4 . . 96
45.01 . .1.0/3.79 . . 37.2 . . 27.7 . . 25.00 . . 25.17 . . 0.271 . . 153 . . . 44.8 . . 99
45.01 . .0.5/1.89 . . 38.2 . . 28.7 . . 25.00 . . 25.33 . . 0.293 . . 148 . . . 43.4 . . 94

75.02 . .2.0/7.57 . . 45.0 . . 29.4 . . 25.00 . . 25.14 . . 0.267 . . 234 . . . 68.6 . . 91
75.02 . .1.5/5.68 . . 45.4 . . 29.8 . . 25.00 . . 25.18 . . 0.272 . . 243 . . . 71.2 . . 95
75.02 . .1.0/3.79 . . 46.1 . . 30.4 . . 25.00 . . 25.28 . . 0.281 . . 251 . . . 73.6 . . 98
75.02 . .0.5/1.89 . . 47.8 . . 32.0 . . 25.00 . . 25.56 . . 0.304 . . 251 . . . 73.6 . . 98

105.04 .2.0/7.57 . . 53.3 . . 31.6 . . 25.00 . . 25.19 . . 0.269 . . 341 . . . 99.9 . . 95
105.04 .1.5/5.68 . . 53.9 . . 32.1 . . 25.00 . . 25.26 . . 0.275 . . 350 . . . 102.6 . . 98
105.04 .1.0/3.79 . . xxxx . . 33.0 . . 25.00 . . 25.39 . . xxxxx . . 350 . . . 102.6 . . 98
105.04 .0.5/1.89 . . 56.9 . . 35.2 . . 25.00 . . 25.77 . . 0.304 . . 346 . . . 101.4 . . 97
Flow rate one: http://www.procooling.com/articles/h...haestus__1.php

Teeline can be from all the pictures in this thread of water not leaving the system.

I can't do the aluminum one as it is just so stupid (the myth part)

Gold's been covered.

Do we really need to prove that mercury is poisonous? http://pasture.ecn.purdue.edu/~mercury/src/poison.htm

AF: http://www.overclockers.com/articles609/index.asp

Bleach has been covered

I don't know of where to get data on sensors other than Cathar's comments. Maybe you could do a quick check, pHaestus?

Digidoc info is provided by the company.

Condensation... Can't occur as you need something below ambient being introduced, and from ANY radiator testing it is shown that temperatures below ambient can not be reached.

Flatness is just from Bill's comments, http://www.swiftnets.com/

Eye testers: look at the WW. It's a bunch of fins that run parallel to the water. It should cool about as well as a Slitedge from looking at it. All the clones show this too.

I'm not quite sure how you put this in or whatever you do.
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Unread 08-19-2004, 04:49 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myv65
Agreed. Welcome to the wonderful world of technical writing. There are a few ways to approach tech writing. Yours (though generally quite accurate) is the "I sound like I know my stuff so I'm right" method. It'll work with people that are too stupid to think for themselves and haven't already been brain-washed with false impressions. Honestly I'm afraid there isn't much use in "teaching" such a group.

There's the over-the-top with theory and data approach. The only ones that will understand are those who already could figure it out, if they cared.

There's the slightly dumbed-down, full of analogies, spoon-fed-but-backed-up-with-real-science method. It doesn't get overly technical, can be understood by those with a brain who care to learn, and offers solid technical background and/or real life (and quality) data. I'm a tad biased toward this last approach as anyone who has read some of my stuff knows.

No matter the approach, resign yourself to one simple fact. Regardless of how right you are, how well you prove it, and how well you present it, someone will still argue that you are wrong. Such is life.

Personally I got a little burned out explaining the same concepts time and again at varied forums. Sure, lots of people took my words to heart and actually learned something, but I could only do it so long. A full time job and three kids kinda took the wind out of my writing sails.

I wish you best of luck in your endeavor for though your goals are noble your task is unending.

I think a big part of tech writing is target audience. Yes, the article may not have shown proof, but show me a part of it you think is wrong, and we'll talk. A relatively weak target audience is no excuse for misinformation, but it is a reason to keep things simple.
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Last edited by greenman100; 08-19-2004 at 04:56 PM.
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Unread 08-19-2004, 04:55 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee116
Sure you can't tell exact performace but you can get a pretty damn good idea. I have yet to be proven wrong on my visual critiques of blocks. Experience is certainly helpfull though.
'twas a bit of a joke stemming from niksub1's sig, it is true, but I do agree with you.


Quote:
Mate,

Great article at OC - big ups to you! Was fantastic to see a succinct, clearly explained summary of the things I (and you, obviously) have learned and now see as obvious that are so often misunderstood.

I do however pity the emails you are going to receive from those that are less knowledgeable - rather you than me!

Cheers

Tijs
now THAT's what I like to see!
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Unread 08-19-2004, 05:56 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by greenman100
now THAT's what I like to see!
But you forgot to flame everyone who didn't kiss your ass!
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Unread 08-19-2004, 06:03 PM   #109
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Sorry if I came off as harsh; am in the middle of extreme workload at office. My approach to writing journal articles is that I want to be the LAST one written. What I mean is this: I strive to have my manuscript be so thorough, the experimental data so compelling and complete, and the discussion so logical and sensible that anyone to study the topic later would just read my paper, say "Ok well that answers that" and move on to another line of research.

A somewhat arrogant attitude perhaps, but it results in higher quality publications. No reason that a web-based article can't shoot for the same, right?
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Unread 08-19-2004, 06:07 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus

A somewhat arrogant attitude perhaps, but it results in higher quality publications. No reason that a web-based article can't shoot for the same, right?
I don't think that is arrogant at all. I look forward to your technical article. Should be an example to all the wannabes out their that call their stuff a technical writing.
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Unread 08-19-2004, 06:12 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenman100
. . . . .
if I went into everyhting in detail, it would have been a month at least, and way too long for a single OCers article

It was a good first article of it's kind as far as I'm concerned, though there's a lot of room for improvement.
. . . . . .
I'm with pH on this, put in the effort to do it correctly - as in over the top (what I call correctly)
otherwise, just a scan and forget (ain't it awful)

my first rad article took over 6 mos, and it was a disaster - I should have waited a year and gotten it right
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Unread 08-19-2004, 06:13 PM   #112
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I lost a ~20% done draft when my hdd died.

Shit happens
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Unread 08-19-2004, 06:14 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
Sorry if I came off as harsh; am in the middle of extreme workload at office. My approach to writing journal articles is that I want to be the LAST one written. What I mean is this: I strive to have my manuscript be so thorough, the experimental data so compelling and complete, and the discussion so logical and sensible that anyone to study the topic later would just read my paper, say "Ok well that answers that" and move on to another line of research.

A somewhat arrogant attitude perhaps, but it results in higher quality publications. No reason that a web-based article can't shoot for the same, right?

agreed

but what about the meantime, when people are making decisions based on myths and fallacies?

jaydee said it all
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Unread 08-19-2004, 06:20 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by unregistered
I'm with pH on this, put in the effort to do it correctly - as in over the top (what I call correctly)
otherwise, just a scan and forget (ain't it awful)

my first rad article took over 6 mos, and it was a disaster - I should have waited a year and gotten it right
agreed, but there is no misinformation, and there was no article like it on OCers

better IMHO to spend a few hours putting up an article that may help, then a much better article months later

opposed to ignorance for months, then a better article

pH, you should know what I'm talking about, you just asked for help with the FAQ and prolinks on the frontpage.

I'd be glad to help, but I'm afraid my work is not of the caliber expected, eh?
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Unread 08-19-2004, 06:31 PM   #115
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"I'd be glad to help, but I'm afraid my work is not of the caliber expected, eh?"

don't be thin-skinned if you are going to write,
you will have to do a lot of it to become proficient - and nothing is perfect eh ?
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Unread 08-19-2004, 07:08 PM   #116
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Greenman what you put together is a bare framework of what I would want. Now imagine the same article filled with crosslinks and references and tons of supporting documentation and when possible test results. We need to more effectively use the internet and html capabilities for something like this and it could be much more than what was posted on OCers. That's my point. It's fine to quote Dave's (very good) AMDMB articles when appropriate and link rather than rewriting everything constantly
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Unread 08-19-2004, 07:20 PM   #117
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Greenman
why not start on an 'update' ?
don't be in a hurry to solicit corrections and comments, first YOU need to become the MASTER of each topic
you will then find most comments fo little import, but watch each for that special insight
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Unread 08-19-2004, 07:57 PM   #118
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Greenman
why not start on an 'update' ?
don't be in a hurry to solicit corrections and comments, first YOU need to become the MASTER of each topic
you will then find most comments fo little import, but watch each for that special insight
going back to college

I'll get on it after I start classes

a few weeks or so

good point on the master of each topic
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Unread 08-19-2004, 08:42 PM   #119
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Agreed that there should be more solid physics/science evidence backing up the statements being made, or at least, stick with the analogy approach and follow up with links to the underlying physical technical explanations available at various sources.

Re: Asetek, let me just say that I personally didn't expect any better, nor was I surprised to see that level of "understanding" coming from them.
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Unread 08-20-2004, 02:56 AM   #120
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Re: the slowing water in the radiator so it spends more time myth

Speed is distance over time. Flow rate is volume over time. The speed of flow may vary throughout the loop, but the flow rate is constant. Regardless of how fast or slow the water is moving, the same amount of water passes through the radiator in a given time. The correct way to increase the time the water spends in the radiator is to make the radiator bigger, increasing the distance and giving the water a longer trip through the radiator rather than a slower one.
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Unread 08-20-2004, 04:28 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenman100
18x worse as far as viscosity, but not thermal transfer.

on another note, the article has been up less than an hour and I already have one email:



how do we go about handling this, when the manuf. is believing in myths?
hmm, can someone answer the antifreeze question (accurately?) I'd really like to know, but dont have the tools to check myself accurately.

Id hardly call asetek a learned manu; finding their own design inefficient, they blatently rip off another design... I love it how he calls you arrogant, after all, all he is, is a petty thief with no morals. Oh well, such is business.

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Unread 10-27-2004, 05:35 PM   #122
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Quote:
Congratulations! You won a $100 prize for your article. Please send your address and I’ll get a check to you.


Best – Joe


Joe @ Overclockers.com
What are you guys' thought on this? I couldn't have done it without you, so I was thinking of donating some or all of it to the ProCooling testbed.

Let me know.
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Unread 10-27-2004, 05:41 PM   #123
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Testbed for sure.
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Unread 10-27-2004, 05:45 PM   #124
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congrats g1
and nice move
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Unread 10-27-2004, 06:10 PM   #125
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Testbed for sure.

100% of it?

the selfish part of me wants some for my work, but I will listen to others
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