Two pumps config - serial or paralell? - Page 3

#Rotor · 11-07-2002, 03:52 AM

now that core would be ideal for running SMP with.... have the radiator act as the Y split in the loop... then have each split form it's own loop all the way back into the reservoir. IE, have two return fitting in the reservoir as well....

I have not tried the circular pattern yet.... I think you are going to find that cutting away so much copper in between each hole, is going to cost you a little fortune in Dremel Disks. that is why, having the holes in a 90º SQR pattern, gives the best result, the formed pin is concave square with very sharp corners, maximizing the surface area related to its volume... and yet it still has enough "body" to be able to carry substantial amounts of heat out into the pin...

MadDogMe · 11-07-2002, 04:03 AM

I meant the bottom one, but the other sounds interesting as well!, except only the bottom plate would have heat going up the pins, the top pins would be pointless would'nt they?, if they have no pin to mate to and carry on the conduction from?. or do they act as blanks to keep the water around the bottom pins?...

utabintarbo · 11-07-2002, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MadDogMe
I meant the bottom one, but the other sounds interesting as well!, except only the bottom plate would have heat going up the pins, the top pins would be pointless would'nt they?, if they have no pin to mate to and carry on the conduction from?. or do they act as blanks to keep the water around the bottom pins?...

As I understand the design, given that the top is identical to the bottom, the "pins" would probably help in the structural integrity area, if not the heat spreading realm. #rotor, please correct me if I am wrong.

Bob

Puzzdre · 11-07-2002, 08:10 AM

Thx for contribution Unloaded!

Think I'm gonna run separate loops on one rad, just drill and solder the fittings on the rad. Yeah, the pump I own is pretty much only one EASILY available in line pump here, and the price is decent. I can buy two for price of one Eheim 1046 (also Eheim is not available locally, I'll have to wait for few weeks for delivery).

#Rotor: I never thought about wearing of Dremel disks, you're right, this might become an issue...but I already punched the start holes in one half of the block, so I guess I'll have to try to make it...

This is what I've done today

#Rotor · 11-07-2002, 11:24 AM

Puzzdre..... DAMN.... you are getting good at this! See, I told ya so.... not too hard at all.

Structural integrity as well as heat transfer, you guys are both correct yes. the two plates get bolted together really hard, with 4 SS bolts so as far as the heat is concerned, it's pretty much one continues pin, all the way to the top. which, if one side is drilled 4mm, would mean the pin to be 8mm long..... now that is a mighty long way for heat to travel, when you consider the environment that pin finds itself in... just think of all the miniature little vortices and turbulence, and it changes with the smallest rise or fall of fluid velocity.

Puzzdre · 11-07-2002, 01:36 PM

Quote:

just think of all the miniature little vortices and turbulence, and it changes with the smallest rise or fall of fluid velocity.

Haiku...

/puzzdre is coming to the stage, taking the mic/

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

I'd like to use this opportunity to thank all the good people who supported this project from the beginning, especially my executive producer of all the funds - monetary and neurally dependant - my wife, and also, The Man Pointing Me In Right Directions - #Rotor. Thank to also all the good people sharing their knowledge on this forum.

/puzzdre is leaving the stage distinctively staring into the hosteses' wonderbra, trips on the second step and falls into the deep of copycat shame. The crowd goes wild./

g.l.amour · 11-07-2002, 05:31 PM

oh no, its getting late again. puzzdre is going berserk again. keep em coming dude !!!

Puzzdre · 11-08-2002, 07:10 AM

LOL

I've been busy little bee today

Off to buy some sanding paper.
Here's some pieces straight from drilling...Yo ho ho, and a bottle of rum!!!

g.l.amour · 11-08-2002, 07:37 AM

that is beautifull puzzdre!!!!

i found some bench drill for +/- 50€ , looks solid enough. but the table is fixed. so for every other hole, you'd have to unclamp the copper. and position it for the next hole and then reclamp. is that how u do it puzzdre, or do u have a mounting table that can be moved in X an Y axis? looks like a bitch to drill some 50 holes that way without a flexible table.

i am on the brink of going down the same road.

Puzzdre · 11-08-2002, 08:34 AM

This is the drill I have, all I ever drilled for wc I drilled on this. The drill was 54 Euro, and the vice was 13.5 Euro. The vice is bolted for the drill table with two bolts. What I do is, clamp the copper tight into the vice, than unscrew a little bolts holding the vice to the drill table, so I can move entire vice forwards/backwards with some force. When drilling I just hold the vice steady while positioning the drill bit over the starting hole, than drill and position the bit over the next starting hole. This way I manage to drill one entire column of holes in the square pattern, then turn off the drill, unclamp the copper and position it for the next column. Similar to that I did when drilling the circular pattern.

It would be surely much better having the xy table and everything clamped tight (it would be more precise and less dangerous

) but this is the way I do it without (for now, hehe) xy table.

I hope I explained it good enough, if you didn't understand I'll try to explain it better.

Quote:

i am on the brink of going down the same road.

Glad to hear that!!!

I'll keep posting to give you some final 'push'

pic of the drill:

g.l.amour · 11-08-2002, 09:04 AM

the make is different, but the drill looks exactly the same as the one i found. WOOOHOOOO. one more thing, the vice came with the press, or u just bought it seperately.

ok, now i first need to find some place where i can easily find some copper bars. and then i can do some real planning.

btw: have u ever soldered a block together? it frightens me some...

Puzzdre · 11-08-2002, 10:25 AM

I bought the vice separately, the drill was too cheap to come with the vice I think.

I never soldered the block yet, but I think it's not such a problem. I dont have the blowtorch but I saw somewhere a guy soldered block heating it on the cooking electrical plate, and somebody here on the forum said he soldered his on barbecue...dunno...:shrug:

g.l.amour · 11-08-2002, 01:49 PM

now that cooking furnace is a very good idea, i got one on gas. u could use some metal plate to distribute the heat +/- evenly and then solder. looks way easier than to hold the blowtorch and put the block together.

i've been phoning around some. as u mention, when i say i need a cu bar from 50mm width. the moment i say it needs to be 20-30mm thickness, everyone is real surprised and tells me it will be hard to find. i'm getting there though.

cheers puzzdre, u got me down this evil twisty road again

Puzzdre · 11-08-2002, 02:53 PM

Quote:

cheers puzzdre, u got me down this evil twisty road again

Yes, but look what I picked up...a roadkill...

/edit/ btw, all blocks I posted are drilled in 10 mm copper...that should be easier to find, at least here...
good luck!

bigben2k · 11-08-2002, 02:59 PM

You're getting closer...

Try a honeycomb pattern: it's most efficient, for the surface area.

g.l.amour · 11-08-2002, 03:18 PM

it looks like u r learning fast indeed puzzdre, starting to look pretty nice.

Puzzdre · 11-08-2002, 05:16 PM

Thanx guys!

bb2k: I didn't thought of honeycomb pattern, but after you mentioned it I did some drawing. If I drill with 3 mm dia bit, there's not too much good, small number of residual posts... And doing something like this with smaller dia... just imagine the number of holes, and dremel for connecting them is out of question...dunno...:shrug:

Good idea though!

Cheers

Puzzdre · 11-08-2002, 05:18 PM

forgot to attach...

#Rotor · 11-08-2002, 05:29 PM

the problem with honey-cone patterns, look at the pins that are being formed.... they now have 6 sides.... which makes them "rounder". Now for heat transfer out of a pin, you want a triangular shaped pin, for the best Surface-area VS. Volume_of_pin ratio.. the next best thing is a square pin, then pentagonal.....hexagonal... etc. till you have a round pin... which has the least surface area for the most metal....

g.l.amour · 11-08-2002, 05:45 PM

simple math, but as rotor is true, your original design would still be best

Puzzdre · 11-08-2002, 05:57 PM

I hope so

But for the simplicity of manufacturing complete block, #Rotor's design beats all the rest of this kinda block. Several straight cuts through the holes, and you're done...

g.l.amour · 11-08-2002, 06:11 PM

i dont fully understand what u mean by "some straight cuts through the holes..." but keep posting those pix, and when u r finished, that could (will be for me) be a damn fine tutorial.

nicozeg · 11-08-2002, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by #Rotor
the problem with honey-cone patterns, look at the pins that are being formed.... they now have 6 sides.... which makes them "rounder". Now for heat transfer out of a pin, you want a triangular shaped pin, for the best Surface-area VS. Volume_of_pin ratio.. the next best thing is a square pin, then pentagonal.....hexagonal... etc. till you have a round pin... which has the least surface area for the most metal....

This is a real honeycomb pattern, it really forms triangular pins that are connected by three axis of staight lines. (simple to dremel cut)

#Rotor · 11-09-2002, 12:01 AM

you mean like this....

Quote:

Originally posted by #Rotor
Indeed I have, you mean staggered, so that the centers of the holes in the top plate, are located over the pins in the bottom plate..... or do you mean like this....

problem with doing like this, the pins are so thin they can barely carry the heat all the way to there tips....

#Rotor · 11-09-2002, 12:11 AM

on the straight cuts'...

to make manufacturing these blocks feasible for doing with a cheap drill-press, you need to avoid having the holes cut into one another. that means that there will be a very thin wall sealing each hole, from the 4 around it. Now for fluid to be able to get through this grid, we need to remove these thin walls... hence the need for the Dremel... by having the holes in a square grid, one only need to cut in 2 directions, in order to form the pins. and make way for the fluid to get through..

the trick comes in being as precise as possible, the more accurate you can get the holes drilled, the thinner the walls will be, and the easier the dremeling will be. on a manufacturing cost table, the Dremel disks is the third most expensive consumable in the process... needless to point the savings by being accurate....

11-07-2002, 03:52 AM	#51
#Rotor Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dione, sector 4s1256 Posts: 852	now that core would be ideal for running SMP with.... have the radiator act as the Y split in the loop... then have each split form it's own loop all the way back into the reservoir. IE, have two return fitting in the reservoir as well.... I have not tried the circular pattern yet.... I think you are going to find that cutting away so much copper in between each hole, is going to cost you a little fortune in Dremel Disks. that is why, having the holes in a 90º SQR pattern, gives the best result, the formed pin is concave square with very sharp corners, maximizing the surface area related to its volume... and yet it still has enough "body" to be able to carry substantial amounts of heat out into the pin... __________________ There is no Spoon.... Last edited by #Rotor; 11-07-2002 at 04:00 AM.

11-07-2002, 11:24 AM	#55
#Rotor Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dione, sector 4s1256 Posts: 852	Puzzdre..... DAMN.... you are getting good at this! See, I told ya so.... not too hard at all. Structural integrity as well as heat transfer, you guys are both correct yes. the two plates get bolted together really hard, with 4 SS bolts so as far as the heat is concerned, it's pretty much one continues pin, all the way to the top. which, if one side is drilled 4mm, would mean the pin to be 8mm long..... now that is a mighty long way for heat to travel, when you consider the environment that pin finds itself in... just think of all the miniature little vortices and turbulence, and it changes with the smallest rise or fall of fluid velocity. __________________ There is no Spoon....

11-08-2002, 10:25 AM	#62
Puzzdre Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Croatia Posts: 969	I bought the vice separately, the drill was too cheap to come with the vice I think. I never soldered the block yet, but I think it's not such a problem. I dont have the blowtorch but I saw somewhere a guy soldered block heating it on the cooking electrical plate, and somebody here on the forum said he soldered his on barbecue...dunno...:shrug: __________________ 'Out of cheese error... ...please reboot the universe (press the GBL to continue)'

11-08-2002, 02:59 PM	#65
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	You're getting closer... Try a honeycomb pattern: it's most efficient, for the surface area. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

11-08-2002, 05:16 PM	#67
Puzzdre Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Croatia Posts: 969	Thanx guys! bb2k: I didn't thought of honeycomb pattern, but after you mentioned it I did some drawing. If I drill with 3 mm dia bit, there's not too much good, small number of residual posts... And doing something like this with smaller dia... just imagine the number of holes, and dremel for connecting them is out of question...dunno...:shrug: Good idea though! Cheers __________________ 'Out of cheese error... ...please reboot the universe (press the GBL to continue)'

11-07-2002, 04:03 AM	#52
MadDogMe Thermophile Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just shut up ;) ... Posts: 1,068	I meant the bottom one, but the other sounds interesting as well!, except only the bottom plate would have heat going up the pins, the top pins would be pointless would'nt they?, if they have no pin to mate to and carry on the conduction from?. or do they act as blanks to keep the water around the bottom pins?...

11-07-2002, 05:31 PM	#57
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	oh no, its getting late again. puzzdre is going berserk again. keep em coming dude !!!

11-08-2002, 07:37 AM	#59
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	that is beautifull puzzdre!!!! i found some bench drill for +/- 50€ , looks solid enough. but the table is fixed. so for every other hole, you'd have to unclamp the copper. and position it for the next hole and then reclamp. is that how u do it puzzdre, or do u have a mounting table that can be moved in X an Y axis? looks like a bitch to drill some 50 holes that way without a flexible table. i am on the brink of going down the same road.

11-08-2002, 09:04 AM	#61
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	the make is different, but the drill looks exactly the same as the one i found. WOOOHOOOO. one more thing, the vice came with the press, or u just bought it seperately. ok, now i first need to find some place where i can easily find some copper bars. and then i can do some real planning. btw: have u ever soldered a block together? it frightens me some...

11-08-2002, 01:49 PM	#63
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	now that cooking furnace is a very good idea, i got one on gas. u could use some metal plate to distribute the heat +/- evenly and then solder. looks way easier than to hold the blowtorch and put the block together. i've been phoning around some. as u mention, when i say i need a cu bar from 50mm width. the moment i say it needs to be 20-30mm thickness, everyone is real surprised and tells me it will be hard to find. i'm getting there though. cheers puzzdre, u got me down this evil twisty road again

11-08-2002, 03:18 PM	#66
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	it looks like u r learning fast indeed puzzdre, starting to look pretty nice.

11-08-2002, 05:29 PM	#69
#Rotor Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dione, sector 4s1256 Posts: 852	the problem with honey-cone patterns, look at the pins that are being formed.... they now have 6 sides.... which makes them "rounder". Now for heat transfer out of a pin, you want a triangular shaped pin, for the best Surface-area VS. Volume_of_pin ratio.. the next best thing is a square pin, then pentagonal.....hexagonal... etc. till you have a round pin... which has the least surface area for the most metal.... __________________ There is no Spoon.... Last edited by #Rotor; 11-08-2002 at 05:41 PM.

11-08-2002, 05:45 PM	#70
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	simple math, but as rotor is true, your original design would still be best

11-08-2002, 05:57 PM	#71
Puzzdre Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Croatia Posts: 969	I hope so But for the simplicity of manufacturing complete block, #Rotor's design beats all the rest of this kinda block. Several straight cuts through the holes, and you're done... __________________ 'Out of cheese error... ...please reboot the universe (press the GBL to continue)'

11-08-2002, 06:11 PM	#72
g.l.amour Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: on da case Posts: 933	i dont fully understand what u mean by "some straight cuts through the holes..." but keep posting those pix, and when u r finished, that could (will be for me) be a damn fine tutorial.

11-09-2002, 12:11 AM	#75
#Rotor Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dione, sector 4s1256 Posts: 852	on the straight cuts'... to make manufacturing these blocks feasible for doing with a cheap drill-press, you need to avoid having the holes cut into one another. that means that there will be a very thin wall sealing each hole, from the 4 around it. Now for fluid to be able to get through this grid, we need to remove these thin walls... hence the need for the Dremel... by having the holes in a square grid, one only need to cut in 2 directions, in order to form the pins. and make way for the fluid to get through.. the trick comes in being as precise as possible, the more accurate you can get the holes drilled, the thinner the walls will be, and the easier the dremeling will be. on a manufacturing cost table, the Dremel disks is the third most expensive consumable in the process... needless to point the savings by being accurate.... __________________ There is no Spoon....

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)