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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 07-18-2004, 08:36 PM   #126
IMOG
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@pH: And you don't need to benefit all of mankind either to do a good job at what you do. Please understand pH, I wasn't trying to discredit your site, or say that is is purposeless. I did not mean to propose a challenge of any sort. I was more just interested in the sort of responses I would receive... And they proved to be interesting responses.

BTW, I like the points you made in the last post, both "(1)" and "(b)" that is. Kidding again of course.

IMHO as I can't speak for all of staff, OCF isn't serving any purpose higher than that of the mission statement I posted earlier which Joe, Ed, and Skip wrote. We help those who come to us, regardless of what their intentions are, we help them come to a much better understanding of PC's. Members can come to us with hardly "0 clue" and we will be patient and helpful enough that if they stick around, and if they aren't completely ignorant, they can't help but learn stuff from us. I think the advancement of members at our site is painfully evident with many members who have joined, and they would tell you the same... Especially those of us on staff, we stick around because we realize how selfless the people before us were, and how much we learned from them. We stay to pass that on as best we can.

What we give members is something they can go out and apply in the real world. Many other members work on relatives and families computers and apply what they have learned there. Their understanding can stop there, or it can go further. How much is learned is largely up to the member... I might not have the job I have if it weren't for OCF. But I joined their site, and was so impressed with how helpful everyone was willing to be, it motivated me to learn more so that I could do the same for others.

I think that is the true glory of OCF, the way members are encouraged and inspired by the length we are willing to go to help a person we don't know.

@AngryAlpaca: I'm not implying, I'm flat out telling you... Don't kid yourself about this forum interaction as being part of the professional world. What we do at these sites are largely jokes to many knowledgeable professionals in the IT industry. We may have some professionals in attendance, but that does not make these interactions "professional". To tell them this is anything more than hobby would get you laughed at.

Last edited by IMOG; 07-18-2004 at 08:46 PM.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 08:41 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
do clouds block the view ?

EDIT: to Glitch
not exactly sure what you mean, its late.

but i humbly started off as a n00b, and rare (once) has been the time i've wanted to correct something somebody has said something who was "informed".

through reading these forums, not this thread, and alot of your posts. i have learnt enough to make an informed choice to making a watercooled rig.

to imog.. after reading these forums for quite a while, yes they are sometimes alittle confrontational, but its all in good faith.. nobody here seems to be out to prove they are better, or belittle somebody. i personally feel that some people could be alittle less harsh when correcting or pointing out mistakes or inaccuracies.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 08:44 PM   #128
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IMOG, I don't think i've ever seen anybody on this forum not help anybody regardless of thier knowledge level, if they are willing to help themselves.

I've spent several months, possibly half a year, reading this forum, learning form what people posted, questions of a few n00bs, their corrections and the decussions of the more experience members.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 08:49 PM   #129
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Your right Glitch, I wouldn't argue the fact that ProC helps its members; I have tried to make it evident that I wasn't discounting the work here altogether. It is just a different kind of assistance they offer. For the most part, I think just as much useful information can be taken out of here as can be taken out of OCF.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 08:58 PM   #130
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Yes, quite right. Threats of lawsuits, review samples offered, endless arguments about performance, improvement of blocks, the systematic "relieving" of the duties of shoddy reviewers... All insignificant.

Just as much useful information? Given all that you've ceded in this thread, you've still got a pretty high view of the information available at OCF.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 09:00 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG
For the most part, I think just as much useful information can be taken out of here as can be taken out of OCF.
I wouldn't argue that. The problem is you guys do an excellent job of hidding it. I have spent a lot of time reading through OCF today and I found way to much crap to sift through to get to anyting usefull. That goes for the main site and the forums.

I was somewhat impressed by your responses to that "Urgent" thread though. IMO it was allowed to carry on to long. The guy was either a troll looking for attention or is not the kind that should be taking the side covers off his PC. I refuse to reply to threads like that in hope they will just give up. It is better for them! They are the type to come back blaming everyone for blowing up their mobo because they were not specifically told to use hose clamps.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 09:02 PM   #132
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Quote:
I think that is the true glory of OCF, the way members are encouraged and inspired by the length we are willing to go to help a person we don't know
This thread started based upon the fact that there was almost a page of help from established members of the forum who were inspired to help but managed to do so without touching upon the fact that the cooling system in question was a complete cluster****.

Here's a hypothetical:
If you asked the OCForums what pump to get, I guarantee you a lot of Danner Mag3 posts will come of it. How is it helpful to newbies to set them up with a pump that has a defect that makes it KNOWN to leak when run inline? Ask procooling about the Danner Mag3 and we'll point you to an article on how to fix them (from 2000!) and then probably suggest a D4 or an MCP600 because the savings in money isn't worth the hassle or expense of a leak or pump failure. And OCForums is the site that is more helpful to newcomers?
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Unread 07-18-2004, 09:07 PM   #133
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Angry, are you angry? Right in the post before your post, I stated that I wasn't calling this place insignificant:

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG
Your right Glitch, I wouldn't argue the fact that ProC helps its members; I have tried to make it evident that I wasn't discounting the work here altogether. It is just a different kind of assistance they offer. For the most part, I think just as much useful information can be taken out of here as can be taken out of OCF.
non-professional != insignificant

As far as my view on OCF, its a big place, and I am realistic about its advantages and disadvantages. I can't say how much that place has freely given me and how significantly it has affected me, so yes I am respectful of it.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 09:08 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG
Your right Glitch, I wouldn't argue the fact that ProC helps its members; I have tried to make it evident that I wasn't discounting the work here altogether. It is just a different kind of assistance they offer. For the most part, I think just as much useful information can be taken out of here as can be taken out of OCF.
I havn't read the OCF before so i can't and definatly won't comment on them.

but if i start with the actaul webpage, i feel you culd do alot to help yourselfs, by redesigning it to make it easier to navigate, and retreive information. I personally have used the website, and find it great for collecting information... but its hard to navigate. There is alot you could do to make the content easier to access, or rather just better organised...

sometimes the best way to help yourself, is just have it easier for lazy people to access info you have already provided.. without them having to ask. imho, it is infact better to tell some people who are obviously being lazy to look up something, and preferably give them a link... always give them something alittle constructive.. like "go google x" but people don't learn unless they use thier brain.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 09:15 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
This thread started based upon the fact that there was almost a page of help from established members of the forum who were inspired to help but managed to do so without touching upon the fact that the cooling system in question was a complete cluster****.
I can't defend the original setup, and I don't think I need to either because a single members WC ignorance does not make a reflection on the entirity of a forum.

However beyond that, I guess it depends on how you look at it pH. The problems with the system, were recognized in the 6th post of the thread... The posts are even numbered.

@glitch: As for the frontpage, the people running it do so as a hobby, and I don't work with them closely enough to be able to speak for them at all. I have posted in the past on the forums wondering about the dated look, but over time, I have actually come to appreciate it for being classic.

As for those of you who have a hard time finding things you are looking for through their navigation - I've hardly ever used it. I use google like so:

bill adams site:www.overclockers.com

That should return 53 results, almost every last one of which you should read if you haven't already.

Last edited by IMOG; 07-18-2004 at 09:25 PM.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 11:56 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG
@Althorin: If they don't follow my lead when I give them a start on the research, then they aren't going to do work on their own when you tell them to search.
Lol, and you accused others of logical fallacies? (strawman??)
Doesnt follow.
And it isnt right anyways.
you give them not a start on the research, but an answer to the immediate concern. There is a difference. I'd rather them get told to research for the easy stuff, BECAUSE it is easy, and it gets them good results, quick, with little effort. Then they are much more likely to try that first next time rather than immediately spout off a new question in a thread so that you can answer it for them. you arent "starting them off", you are solving their problem, answering their questions, etc.

Quote:
chances are that someone will see the information I posted and find it useful and they will pursue it for their own reasons.
No, humans are lazy.
chances are, they will ask you again!

Quote:
I don't feel it is my duty to bonk them to make them do what they "should".
Nope, you seem to think its your duty to coddle them constantly, which only leads to a dependency.
And who said "bonk" anyways? An approach which forces them to work for their answer so that you are not forced into self-inflicted slavery for noobs is now "bonking" them? An approach which allows them to gather more information without becoming dependent on a single (fallible) source is "bonking" them? I beg to differ - it is you who is doing the "bonking", you just dont seem to realize it.
Please, answer the point of my previous post - How does your approach NOT train them into dependencies?

Quote:
Criticize our approach if you like, that is your right. What does the ProC approach offer? And what does it accomplish. I'd like to hear what you have to say about it, and how what is done here has a larger positive benefit?
I already have made my views quite clear, and my reasons for said approach clear as well - but I'll outline them again:

Your way = trained "giving of fish" - creates dependencies, forces additional workload on you, increases the likelyhood of propogation of misinformation, and the person is more likely to become a "contributing" member of your forums as really only a parrot, because he/she doesnt really research and innovate, he just feeds the cycle.

Our way = "teaching them to fish" - no dependencies, broad base of sources gives protection against single point of misinformation, person is more likely to become a REAL contributing (innovating!, not just parroting) member of the forum.

Or course this is mostly just BS anyways - just an attempted analysis of trends - giving more insight to my thought processes than insight towards the plight of noobs in either environment.

What it really boils down to is ProCooling is about the "how" , "why" and "results", while OCers is more about the "results" - an approach which i think yeilds a less educated )\(on the given subject) populace.\, since fewer posts state "why" and "how". "Net Clue" thus rises only with specific information (which may be wrong, but no one knows how or why and so cannot verify).

whatever, I'm a bit sick of talking about it honestly. go do a search on google if you want more. - specifically, look for teaching - and here is one such link for further edification:
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/articles/021898.htm

I'll quote a relevant chunk:
Quote:
Foundations For Successful Homeschooling:

This Works:
Help your children develop knowledge and skills in many areas and learn how to learn.

This Doesn't:
Focus on discrete skills in primarily academic areas.
Perfect (imo) analysis of the differences in philosophy.

Last edited by Althornin; 07-19-2004 at 12:13 AM.
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Unread 07-19-2004, 12:15 AM   #137
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Look guys:
I don't know how many of you here have had bad experiences while posting at OCers, who has axes to grind, or any of the backstory for this particular drama. I just ask one simple thing:

Don't let this blow up into some forum war or soap opera like bbs stuff among computer geeks is wont to do. I don't post much in the ocers forums (hell I can barely keep up with THIS forum) but I never had any problem there or got reprimanded. I DO correspond from time to time with JoeC and Ed (though Ed never writes back; I don't think he loves my comments on his pro-RIAA stuff ) and Procooling (the site management) doesn't have any problems or beef with overclockers.com (the site management).

Just want to clear this up (if this nonsense is getting picked up across forums) and again urge people not to **** up these forums while I'm sleeping and working and busy

I wish ALL forums had moderation like slashdot and shacknews; just moderate stupid stuff down and then let people adjust filters to suit them. Some would say that this is akin to censorship, but at shacknews if you use the appropriate filters you can see not only stupid and tangent posts but even see the horrific things that are nuked by the moderators. Or you can only read the posts marked "interesting" or "informative" or whatever and then skip 99% of the junk.
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Unread 07-19-2004, 12:24 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
Look guys:
I don't know how many of you here have had bad experiences while posting at OCers, who has axes to grind, or any of the backstory for this particular drama. I just ask one simple thing:

Don't let this blow up into some forum war or soap opera like bbs stuff among computer geeks is wont to do. I don't post much in the ocers forums (hell I can barely keep up with THIS forum) but I never had any problem there or got reprimanded. I DO correspond from time to time with JoeC and Ed (though Ed never writes back; I don't think he loves my comments on his pro-RIAA stuff ) and Procooling (the site management) doesn't have any problems or beef with overclockers.com (the site management).

Just want to clear this up (if this nonsense is getting picked up across forums) and again urge people not to **** up these forums while I'm sleeping and working and busy

I wish ALL forums had moderation like slashdot and shacknews; just moderate stupid stuff down and then let people adjust filters to suit them. Some would say that this is akin to censorship, but at shacknews if you use the appropriate filters you can see not only stupid and tangent posts but even see the horrific things that are nuked by the moderators. Or you can only read the posts marked "interesting" or "informative" or whatever and then skip 99% of the junk.
I don't ahve an axe to grind or a "history" at OCers (tho i have read there a goodly amount).
honestly, i jsut enjoy a methodology debate now and again, and especially one which falls into this form. No ill will is intended, adn if any comes across, its probably transmitted merely because of the vehemence of my thoughts, not because of what i think of OCers.
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Unread 07-19-2004, 05:22 AM   #139
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Althornin, that might have been a little over the top. I am not certain where-abouts we got so agitated, but I don't want any part of that.

I belive your intent is self evident, especially after the last post. You simply intend to argue anything I say and come to some "grand" final decision for all. I'm not in this to make everyone agree, and I'm not forcing anyone to look at things my way. If you don't agree, you have every right not to, and I'm not going to try to force anything else on you. Yet, you act like I am battleing you. I agreed to disagree with you quite some time ago, as I could see where it was going.

Going through life thinking that everyone who doesn't agree with us is misinformed is a terribly mislead philosophy. Personally, I can appreciate someone who thinks differently than myself. Though I don't agree with them, I can respect their thoughts, while having the CHARITY to believe their idea may hold merit that I am just not able to recognize.

pH, thanks for the great discussion, I hope I've made it clear that I didn't come here to troll - Just share some perspective in light of the discussions of OCF staff. If this thread explodes, trust that it won't be my doing - if that was my intent, it easily would have happened with jaydee a while ago, but heck, I ended up thinking the guy is alright.
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Unread 07-19-2004, 08:40 AM   #140
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Actually, i deliberately goaded Jaydee in one of my first posts, just to break the ice, so to speak His custom title says it all.

I came here a complete newbie, but I've learnt from it;

If it wasnt for Bigben2k then i probably wouldnt have learnt nearly as much as i have, as he answered my newbie questions, to an extent, but not the point that i didnt have to search. The amount of hours ive spent reading here (im sure the IP logs will attest to that) is pretty insane, and yes, its hobby. However, im learning more from the process in terms of physical and mental skills than my computer will benefit from the better cooling it recieves.

The difference is, i was willing to read and to learn about my misconceptions, and rectify them.

When BB2k said something, and I didnt understand it entirely, i went out of my way to find out what he meant without directly asking, as I wanted a bit of respect here as well; Ive seen many forum newbies just ask questions and expect to be spoonfed. Theres nothing more frustrating that telling someone the answer to something, only for them to come back and ask for clarification; All i ask for is a pointer of where to start. IIRC Groth helped me greatly too.

Different forums, different attitudes. Some people can stomach it, others can't. I'm sure if you search for my posts at OC'ers you'll find some pretty harsh stuff too, and i havent been in this game long.

The main problem is the stubborness of people when they have an idea in their head that is wrong, and are unwilling to think that it might be wrong.
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Unread 07-19-2004, 09:35 AM   #141
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"The main problem is the stubbornness of people when they have an idea in their head that is wrong, and are unwilling to think that it might be wrong."

this is really the heart of the issue, and we have a thread running right now that is an excellent example:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...astpage&t=9907
- here we have a fool who cannot learn, what to do ?
(I have now told him straight up, the next will be ugly)

IMOG
your willingness to 'discuss' the forum differences is appreciated (by me anyway)
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Unread 07-19-2004, 09:53 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
I was out catching some sun and some beers on the river and missed all this nonsense (assuming it's over with).

Cathar I think this forum will hold pretty steady unless hardforums goes down for good and then we'll pick up a lot of newcomers again. People new to water cooling just don't accidentally come upon procooling and register here; they go to OCers and HOCP and Anandtech instead.

I guess I'm special, as when I first found this forum and registered (under a different username as ive re-registered to all my daily forums with my new online name) it was before any of the other sites, this one I can clearly remember finding it one day, reading a bit about watercooling etc on the main site, then a week later forgetting what the site was when i really wanted to go check the forums out...


On a different note, what are other good case modding forums, as OC seemed to me to have a decent amount of useful posts in there (- the post about cold cathodes not being cold)
Note: i just started reading the OCforums like a week ago
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Unread 07-19-2004, 10:19 AM   #143
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Other OC based forums are

www.overclockers.com.au - Its much the same as oc.com and OCforums. I never post there as i dont have time but from all accounts its a very good place.

www.extremeoverclocking.com - You could check out this place. It semes ok but again i dont post there.

www.overclockersclub.com - ditto

The best casemodding site is www.bit-tech.net but its not a 'overclocking' forum. Never the less its a fun place to hang out. Expecialy if your from the UK (which i see your not but we welcome all)

TBH other than OCAU and OC.com theres not relly any other top notch general overclocking sites around. Thats why i dont want to see OC.com go down the pan!

Theres alot of [H]ard ocps out there im afrade

Edit: heres a few more i pulled from my bookmark list

http://www.ocaddict.com/
http://www.octools.com/
http://www.ocinside.de

And there just the ones that start with OC. you will have to make you own mind uo if they are any good.
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Unread 07-19-2004, 10:57 AM   #144
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Forgot to mention AOA Forums - www.aoaforums.com

A bunch of the old-timer OCF guys can be found over there, and many of them are not only great and very friendly guys, but they're very knowledgeable also. I don't know much about the climate of their forums, as I've only lurked a few threads there to research some forum history... But I do know there are some really good guys there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
IMOG
your willingness to 'discuss' the forum differences is appreciated (by me anyway)
Don't mention it Bill. It's good for everyone to be concious of the environment around them. This thread might have looked rough at times, but I think cooler heads prevailed after all and I think most have taken some useful insight from this. Credit should go to pH for having the confidence in us to ride it out, rather than kill it while it was only garbage.
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Unread 07-19-2004, 11:01 AM   #145
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www.truextreme.com has a lot of serious overclockers and a very good group of DIY phase-change cooling guys.

I second www.bit-tech.net as the spot for case mods; off the scale bling factor

Are the ocinside.de forums as useful for CPU modifications and motherboard voltage mods as the main page? That site has some GREAT interactive guides for AMD cpus...
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Unread 07-19-2004, 11:06 AM   #146
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Just so SpeedyDJ and IMOG don't think I am blowing smoke up their ass about the thread I mentioned before:

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.p...0&page=1&pp=30

I even got called a BillA replacment!

I do have to apologize to SpeedyDJ as I am not 100% sure now that it was him that gave me the PM. If I had my log in details the PM might still be there but I can't remember them nor does the e-mail addy still exist for that account if I remember correctly. I was probably deserving of it anyway. I can't remember what I told the guy.
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Unread 07-19-2004, 11:08 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG
Althornin, that might have been a little over the top. I am not certain where-abouts we got so agitated, but I don't want any part of that.

I belive your intent is self evident, especially after the last post. You simply intend to argue anything I say and come to some "grand" final decision for all. I'm not in this to make everyone agree, and I'm not forcing anyone to look at things my way. If you don't agree, you have every right not to, and I'm not going to try to force anything else on you. Yet, you act like I am battleing you. I agreed to disagree with you quite some time ago, as I could see where it was going.

Going through life thinking that everyone who doesn't agree with us is misinformed is a terribly mislead philosophy. Personally, I can appreciate someone who thinks differently than myself. Though I don't agree with them, I can respect their thoughts, while having the CHARITY to believe their idea may hold merit that I am just not able to recognize.
Boy, someone missed out on large portions of my posts, where i explicitly say that i am not agitated, etc.

Lol, grand final decision:
Let me quote myself:

Quote:
Of course this is mostly just BS anyways - just an attempted analysis of trends - giving more insight to my thought processes than insight towards the plight of noobs in either environment.
That sure sounds like someone who is building up to a supreme grand unify theory or some such, and certainly i must believe everyone else is misinformed, for otherwise i could never say i was uttering BS! :shrug:

Your intent is clear - to pretend hostility exists where none does, and so get off the hook, so to speak. You are simply assuming superiority on a moral ground by stating you have it, and then saying "well, that finishes things". You then finish with a "I knew all along this was gonna happen". Of course, this is all after ignoring anything i had to say, by reducing it to "you just bonk new users!!1111".
Please.

And CHARITY - has nothing to do with it.
If your idea has merit - SHOW IT TO ME. That's what this has all been about! I am open minded - but i want to see your support for you idea - and you havent shown me ANY yet. What am i supposed to think :shrug:
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Unread 07-19-2004, 11:35 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
[url]
Are the ocinside.de forums as useful for CPU modifications and motherboard voltage mods as the main page? That site has some GREAT interactive guides for AMD cpus...
They are all in german
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Unread 07-19-2004, 11:37 AM   #149
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I'm open to PM's at OCF, this forum has been gracious enough and I think few desire to see much further along these lines. I will endure it if you feel it would bring closure. I really thought I made my perogative as clear as possible in these last five pages however.

Last edited by IMOG; 07-19-2004 at 11:46 AM.
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Unread 07-19-2004, 11:42 AM   #150
jaydee
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Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG


I'm open to PM's at OCF, this forum has been gracious enough and I think few desire to see much further along these lines. I will endure it if you feel it would bring closure.
What are the odds of getting my login info for OCF? Or at least the e-mail addy I used so I can use the lost password deal? CustomCooledPC was the sceen name?
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