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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 12-01-2004, 11:02 AM   #176
Roscal
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There's no version 2 in fact, they only added external fix on the body as a little improvement.

I don't know what the matter with graph but their 570L/h are impossible to achieve @12V with my test, for sure ! I mailed Ralf from Laing to know exactly the conditions of their test because, as usual, a lot of data are missing (voltage?).

Here's his first mail to my question about these strange 570 L/h today :

Quote:
Hi David,
About the flowrate:
Before we used the pump curve for the requirements of Delphi (we stopped measuring at the 270 l/h), now we measured to the maximum characteristics, that's what we'll use for the end customer market.
Is maximum characteristics refer to 13.2 V, I don't know it's not clear...

Bill I'm waiting your test, it take a couple of minutes to confirm or not.
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Unread 12-01-2004, 11:04 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
not your ability to read, or reason - that much is clear
Excel rounds 0.5 to 1, as in the vertical axis of the small graph

you are a fool Jag, try again

version 1, version 2 - where is thes crap coming from ?
Europe ?
there is only one version of the DDC sold in the US (only the case and or wiring may vary, pumps all the same)
- Jeez Bill, seems like you are transitioning from the 'lovable grippy old curmudgeon' to being just downright mean spirited. Gee whiz!
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Unread 12-01-2004, 11:28 AM   #178
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no, "lovable" is not an adjective normally associated with me (that's your thing)
my fuse is pico-seconds when compared to other vendors

Roscal
Oliver is aware of the graph and it is being pulled - period
so the quotation seems strange to say the least

would test but the bench is tied up with rads and the second not yet assembled
more than a bit overloaded here
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Unread 12-01-2004, 12:10 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
ok, the European brochure is wrong - all disclaim knowledge of how this happened (to me)
the brochure will be changed

there is NO version 2

still no clue as to who can be trusted ?
get stuffed
Bill, no wild guesses and/or clues; convictions (trust?) result from firm actions and facts.
Some kind of answer was needed. You took the kind of (re-)action Swiftech consumers, WC community and resellers nedded.

As you surely realise, this market (WC) and in particular WC pumps doesn't have a lot of good references to sustain its credibility. So, one couldn't afford to loose this one.
Nevertheless, Laing's move wasn't a smart one («all disclaim knowledge of how this happened (to me)»).

get stuffed
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Unread 12-02-2004, 11:51 AM   #180
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Some news about the 570L/h mystery.

Mail from Laing :

Quote:
Hi David

Now it gets a little bit difficult for me to explain the “mystery” about our pump curves, even because I’m not a technician.

The curves that you measured are correct, but our curves are correct too. That is to trace back to the fact that we use different test facilities and test methods.

To get the max. flow at no resistance, you have to compensate the resistance of the measuring facility itself. Also you have to use a second pump in the system to neutralise the system resistances. If you work accordant to this process, you will measure also the 570l/h, as we did it.

If you compare some duty points of the actual curve and the former curve you won’t find too many differences.

David, I hope I could clarify the differences in the measuring methods, even if I have the opinion that we will not work in the area of 5 to 15 kPa, because the resistance of the coldplates, the tubes and other components of the cooling system will be higher. What`s your opinion?
It could be 2 DDC in parallel and 570L/h could be the result, but it's a strange method again... I ask him some pics/diagrams of their test bench to have more precise info because he don't know really the procedure as he said...

Thoughts?
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Unread 12-02-2004, 12:09 PM   #181
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strange indeed
Laing has a test loop in San Diego which I should go visit, will try next week
the data posted, given to us by Laing, was also confirmed in SD; so whatever the procedure is - both facilities are using the same setups

the techs may think they have a 'better' method, but they failed to convince Oliver it seems

2 DDC in parallel = 1 D4 (at half the cost)
???
and believe it or not, we are already getting inquires about running 2 in parallel
BTSOOM
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Unread 12-03-2004, 05:39 AM   #182
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More explanation from Laing :

Quote:
Hi David
We like it how interested and competent you handle the test!

Due to the fact that we made a lot of measurements with the same result (that what you describe as Laing DDC v2), we are quite sure that our measurement is correct and not an "optimistic" curve, as you wrote :-).
The fact that we use a second pump in our test is state of the technic. Without the second pump you never can measure at zero pressure!
You are completely right if you mention the fact of additional pressures, if you work with two pumps in series, but in a test facility you have to use a speed controlled pump, then starting the test pump, watching flow meter and pressure gage and measure the difference pressure between inlet and outlet. Okay, now you start the second, speed controled pump, adjust it exactly to the point of zero pressure (watching the pressure gage), and that's it. From this moment you can measure the max. Flow rate at zero pressure.

David, you may rest assured that we don't have any interest to disappoint anyone and I'm sure we will solve the misunderstandings.
Later I'll try to make a little drawing of our test principle, to send it to you.
For the moment, have a nice weekend,
To understand the terms above, I gave him a quick comparison with my own measurement called V1 (the same as Laing in their first webpage) and their new graph, called Laing V2 to distinguish them (not a true V2 !) :



If the V2 curve was *true*, I should to find a flowrate higher of ~40 L/h in my low restrictive system (using PD on WB) but it's not the case :shrug: . Anyway, the little difference is not really important because pump is really silent and powerful, some L/h more or less is irrevelant.
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Unread 12-03-2004, 08:52 AM   #183
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interesting, and the initial rational re 270L seems even more peculiar - the difference at that point is considerable between the 2 curves
??
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Unread 12-03-2004, 09:45 AM   #184
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Quote:
To get the max. flow at no resistance, you have to compensate the resistance of the measuring facility itself. Also you have to use a second pump in the system to neutralise the system resistances. If you work accordant to this process, you will measure also the 570l/h, as we did it.
Confusing to you guys? Imagine on this end Still education opportunity to try to think it through - Pardon the 'stream of consciousness' below

1> Sounds crazy to measure one pump using two - Thinking - No, makes some sense as pump mfg has to provide method to client engineers to replicate data transparent to individual bench setup (fittings, tube friction, etc.)
2> Implies an absence of a valid engineering standard for replicatable flow measurement? What is the equivalent to IEEE for pump engineers? Is there not an international standard for this type of measurement?
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Unread 12-03-2004, 05:55 PM   #185
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Hi,

Do you know any store in the US who sold the mcp350 alone, i only find it include in H2O pack.

i tried on swiftech store, but i ask for avaibility before. and here the answer from them :
Quote:
Hello Chris,

Yes, it may take up 2 weeks to ship. I strongly suggest your try one of our Resellers like Jab-tech, Sidewinder computers, FrozenCPU, CrazyPC. We will be shipping the MCP350 pumps to them this week.
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Unread 12-03-2004, 10:50 PM   #186
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Danger Den has it in stock
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Unread 12-04-2004, 01:24 AM   #187
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And they got mine shipped out ASAP. Ordered Tuesday and got it today. I talked first with Swiftech, but Michelle said they wouldn't ship until next week. I think Swiftech needs a BillA for sales.
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Unread 12-04-2004, 08:54 AM   #188
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Thanks for the info,

Anyway i would prefere the swiftech for the attach system (i am a lazy ass ) so i don't have to do it myself.
i keep lokking, and let you know.
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Unread 12-06-2004, 10:50 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDogg
Confusing to you guys? Imagine on this end Still education opportunity to try to think it through - Pardon the 'stream of consciousness' below

1> Sounds crazy to measure one pump using two - Thinking - No, makes some sense as pump mfg has to provide method to client engineers to replicate data transparent to individual bench setup (fittings, tube friction, etc.)
2> Implies an absence of a valid engineering standard for replicatable flow measurement? What is the equivalent to IEEE for pump engineers? Is there not an international standard for this type of measurement?
I'm still confused as to which is the better pump, the DDC or the D4? Acoustic properties and size aside, I can't tell which pump yields the better results. According to previously posted flow rate graphs (several pages back), with a relatively unrestrictive block like the MCW6000, the D4 is significantly better. According to the graphs posted in this ^^ pump comparison, the DDC has less head the than D4? Is that graph at all accurate? It would seem to me that the DDC would excel in a highly restrictive loop compared to the D4 according to the P/Q curve on the Swiftech website.

Last edited by JWFokker; 12-06-2004 at 11:00 PM.
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Unread 12-07-2004, 04:01 AM   #190
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Predicted temp difference between CPU and ambient, the lower the better:



Yes, it would seem the DDC can outperform the D4 in a restrictive circuit as it dumps less heat, which makes up for the slightly lower flow rate.
In a less restrictive loop, the amount of heat 'saved' may not be enough to overcome the gains due to increased flow with the D4.

ATM, I think the decision is more likely to be influenced by your noise tolerance levels
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Unread 12-07-2004, 07:41 AM   #191
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DDC temperature wise.
But would like to see cathar coment at what pump to choose, "overclocking wise".
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Last edited by satanicoo; 12-07-2004 at 07:46 AM.
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Unread 12-09-2004, 10:01 AM   #192
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Hi how does the Laing DDC/MCP350 compare performance wise to dual csystems in series, thing is iv ordered a pair of these and after reading a few horror stories am a little worried, a 1250 is easy to get hold of and was happy with the last 1250 i owned, the MCP350 would have to be an import due to me being in the UK

im stuck on what pump to choose, the loop will include

swiffy 6002
silverprop HL
120.3
fillport from a tline

What do you guys reccomend, am i better off importing the MCP350 or going for a good ole reliable 1250 like i had before
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Unread 12-09-2004, 02:30 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAcon
What do you guys reccomend, am i better off importing the MCP350 or going for a good ole reliable 1250 like i had before
You can buy it on alphacool website in germany, that will maybe save some bucks for you
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Unread 12-09-2004, 03:00 PM   #194
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iv been offered a nearly new aquaextreme 50 (mc 600) for £60inc, basically same price as 2 cp750's and not sure what i should do

the mcp350 looks nice but unsure it will be enough for my rig
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Unread 12-09-2004, 03:20 PM   #195
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60 pounds? thats a bit steep isnt it?

I got mine s/h (used once, so yes, basically new too) for 75nzd, which is basically 25 pounds...
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Unread 12-09-2004, 03:30 PM   #196
BAcon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etacovda
60 pounds? thats a bit steep isnt it?

I got mine s/h (used once, so yes, basically new too) for 75nzd, which is basically 25 pounds...
well for me to import a new aqwa extreme will cost $75 plus the shipping which ethy seem tot show as $70 also but im sure it can be brought down to $40 or so

so is actually fairly cheap, shame its the only place to get onme the german place is annoying me so no idea on price from them
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Unread 12-09-2004, 05:47 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAcon
well for me to import a new aqwa extreme will cost $75 plus the shipping which ethy seem tot show as $70 also but im sure it can be brought down to $40 or so

so is actually fairly cheap, shame its the only place to get onme the german place is annoying me so no idea on price from them
aquacool appear to sell the laing pump (i.e the 350) at 74,90Euro including VAT, (plus whatever the shipping is from germany...)

given the low $ i suspect you'd be better off getting a 350 from sidewinder at $79.95 (they ship USPS, so it'lll be pretty cheap - it's not a heavy pump..)
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Unread 12-09-2004, 05:49 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAcon
iv been offered a nearly new aquaextreme 50 (mc 600) for £60inc, basically same price as 2 cp750's and not sure what i should do

the mcp350 looks nice but unsure it will be enough for my rig
The CSP750 is not known for reliability. It may in fact turn out to be worse than a Danner pump due to the aluminum housing. I'd stick to Eheim since you can probably get one for a lot less. For that price you could get two Eheim 1046 or 1048's and run them in series. The Aquaextreme 50/MCP600 is a relabled PanWorld pump, and while quiet and fairly powerful, has been known to have reliability problems. I have yet to hear a complaint about an Eheim pump. Quieter and more reliable and probably cheaper, a couple small Eheim pumps seems to be the way to go if you're in the UK. That might be an alright price for the AquaExtreme in the UK, but it's 50% more than what we pay in the US. I'm sure if you check local pet stores you could pick up a couple small Eheim pumps for under 25 pounds each.
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Unread 12-09-2004, 05:50 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldenton
aquacool appear to sell the laing pump (i.e the 350) at 74,90Euro including VAT, (plus whatever the shipping is from germany...)

given the low $ i suspect you'd be better off getting a 350 from sidewinder at $79.95 (they ship USPS, so it'lll be pretty cheap - it's not a heavy pump..)
it doesnt matter now, i was guna get the mcp350 but have purchased the AQX 50z from a guy in the UK, 2 weeks old and 6hrs use

Should be slightly better than the 350 i hope tho im sure a tad noisier compared to my 1250 i had before

shame about the price, im not sure i can be bothered to have 2 larger eheims in the case with the extra tubing etc tho im sure the pc75 will have the room

If the pump is no good im told it has 2 years warranty anyway so should be fine at elast for 2 years
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Unread 12-09-2004, 05:51 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldenton
aquacool appear to sell the laing pump (i.e the 350) at 74,90Euro including VAT, (plus whatever the shipping is from germany...)

given the low $ i suspect you'd be better off getting a 350 from sidewinder at $79.95 (they ship USPS, so it'lll be pretty cheap - it's not a heavy pump..)
Sidewinder will ship internationally? In that case, the MCP350 would be the way to go.
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