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Unread 11-16-2004, 03:41 AM   #151
Cathar
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Sorry Bruce,

When you said "better", and then threw in a reference to RD30 (in response to alexwai), I thought you meant better as in stronger.

I totally agree. 50PX-Z is only good in terms of its pumping characteristics. Size-wise it is large, and at 24v not as ideal as 12v.

If there's a well priced, small sized 12v pump with the power & pumping charactersitics of the 50PX-Z, then that would obviously be "better".

Would love to see the specs of the pump to which you refer.
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Unread 11-16-2004, 03:45 AM   #152
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Thank you. May save me some money.
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Unread 11-16-2004, 03:46 AM   #153
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Cathar he has a 12v 50PX-Z I see that he offered to send you. And I would say quite justified with all the work and time you have put into your latest pumping posts. I will bet over that last week or so he has seen an increase in sales of the 50Z and I bet they will be on the increase for a while yet.

I have been suggesting the MCP600/AquaXtreme 50Z for a few months now (mainly at EOCF) but most wouldnt listen to me since I am just a new guy as far as water cooling goes and seem to disagree quite a bit with AA who seems to be thier guy on those forums.
I dont have tech knolege you have, I did have a fair amount 33 years ago (almost 2 years at a good engineering school MSOE but I had a low draft number 103 that I got on my 19th birthday, and never went back after I got out)

But I can still look at data I trust and understand and make good choices from it. It seems to me that too amny people look at the data and just see what they want to see not what it is actually telling them, or just simply dont understand what its saying at all.

Last edited by Chew_Toy; 11-16-2004 at 04:09 AM.
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Unread 11-16-2004, 03:56 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Laing DDC is more like an 8W heat-dump in typical use.

Check out Roscal's graphs. He actually measured it.
If you're referring to this graph:
http://www.cooling-masters.com/image...puissances.png

I believe he simply subtracted useful output (hydraulic power) from input power. Dissipation is therefore total for air and water sides
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Unread 11-16-2004, 04:01 AM   #155
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Yes for both. I could estimate water dump using calorimetry but no time now. The most part of heat goes in water, DDC is very small and not warm at all ->no much air loss. The spherical motor helps for that because coils are near and surrounding by water.
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Unread 11-16-2004, 05:03 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscal
Yes for both. I could estimate water dump using calorimetry but no time now. The most part of heat goes in water, DDC is very small and not warm at all ->no much air loss. The spherical motor helps for that because coils are near and surrounding by water.
Hmmm. Thanks for clearing that up. I admit to not translating the French directly, but when I saw (W) and "dissipee", I had assumed that it was heat dissipation being talked about.

So the pump's heat dump could conceptually be at the same 90% level as the D4's then...
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Unread 11-16-2004, 05:21 AM   #157
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Yep 80-90% is a good guess IMO
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Unread 11-16-2004, 10:02 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dacooltech
Chew_Toy there're new models better than 50PX
think about the 12V versions of Iwaki RD series both in performance and size
Bruce, are you saying that you have some 12v RD-30's and 20's perhaps? If so, what is the amp/wattage draw? I would be very interested in one of these, I have the 24V RD-30 which requires a seperate PSU, which is actually OK because it is adjustable and I can over or undervolt the pump. As far as lifespan for the Iwaki's, I believe they claim at least 5 years? I have not seen MTBF for the RD's but I would asume similar to the rest (MD's), although, you know what they say about assuming.
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Unread 11-16-2004, 05:01 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Bruce, are you saying that you have some 12v RD-30's and 20's perhaps? If so, what is the amp/wattage draw? I would be very interested in one of these, I have the 24V RD-30 which requires a seperate PSU, which is actually OK because it is adjustable and I can over or undervolt the pump. As far as lifespan for the Iwaki's, I believe they claim at least 5 years? I have not seen MTBF for the RD's but I would asume similar to the rest (MD's), although, you know what they say about assuming.
Oh no... I'm talking about 12V DC pumps comparable to the RD series in terms of performance and size
Only the RD 05 is available as 12V DC, and that's for OEM
The price that Iwaki is asking for it though is exXxtremely expensive even in high volume

well, check the MTBF on the RD series with Iwaki
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Unread 11-16-2004, 05:05 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dacooltech
Oh no... I'm talking about 12V DC pumps comparable to the RD series in terms of performance and size
Only the RD 05 is available as 12V DC, and that's for OEM
The price that Iwaki is asking for it though is exXxtremely expensive even in high volume

well, check the MTBF on the RD series with Iwaki
Then I guess $108 for a brand new RD-30 is a good deal eh?
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Unread 11-16-2004, 05:20 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Sorry Bruce,

When you said "better", and then threw in a reference to RD30 (in response to alexwai), I thought you meant better as in stronger.

I totally agree. 50PX-Z is only good in terms of its pumping characteristics. Size-wise it is large, and at 24v not as ideal as 12v.

If there's a well priced, small sized 12v pump with the power & pumping charactersitics of the 50PX-Z, then that would obviously be "better".

Would love to see the specs of the pump to which you refer.
Actually I'm sorry Stew,

I wasn't specific enough.
The pump that we might start carrying is a high pressure rated, sealless mag drive pump (just like the AQX-50Z), rated @ max head=29ft (9m), Max flow= 2.2GPM (8L/min), Output x Input (W)= 18 x 30

Size:
W: 2.91" (74mm)
H: 3.54" (90mm)
L: 3.94" (100)

I think this pump will do the 3.5 m @ 6L that you mentioned almost exactly.
The manufacturer told me that they made slight improvements to this particular model, so I'm waiting for the updated specs from them. Once I receive the most current specs, and PQ curves, I'm going to fwd them to you.

The max flow is under 13 L but we would not operate at this point in
our application, are we?

Now I said we might start carrying, because we're still negotioating the price with the manufacturer.

But it is smaller than the 50PX-Z, and will still be cheaper .
Meaning I think the 12V DC version fo the 50PX-Z is around $300
I think this pump can be offered @ half that price... which is also much cheaper than the Iwaki RD-05H

But if the price is not right, and if it's going to be close to the $200 range, then putting 2x AQX-50Z pumps in series makes more sense IMHO.

The other versions have almost the same specs as the RD-20 and RD-30 but available in 12V DC.
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Unread 11-16-2004, 05:22 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Then I guess $108 for a brand new RD-30 is a good deal eh?
it's a great deal... in fact it's a steal
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Unread 11-16-2004, 05:26 PM   #163
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That would even fit where my MCP600 is. Very nice size for the specs.
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Unread 11-16-2004, 05:33 PM   #164
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Quote:
Cathar he has a 12v 50PX-Z I see that he offered to send you. And I would say quite justified with all the work and time you have put into your latest pumping posts. I will bet over that last week or so he has seen an increase in sales of the 50Z and I bet they will be on the increase for a while yet.
a 12V 50PX-Z and one of the new 12VDC models that he likes

but that's not only for this excellent thread, or whether or not this thread increased the pump sales. There're many other things that I can't explain fully here, that I feel like I owe big time to Stew. If I have to give an example, one of them is the WW block.

Also I especially like to thank to Les, Lolito, and Roscal for their amazing contributions to pro/forums. Excellent job, I'm learning a lot from you guys
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Unread 11-16-2004, 05:39 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dacooltech
The max flow is under 13 L but we would not operate at this point in our application, are we?
Max flow of 13LPM would be to cater for the high-flow blocks like the Maze3/4's.

While I don't personally believe that such high-flow blocks are the correct approach towards achieving better cooling performance of the CPU, I would not like to rule out the possibility that a block operating at 9-10LPM @ 2-2.5mH2O could in fact be quite a viable high-performance solution (e.g. the White Water blocks perform very impressively up at 9LPM).

13LPM was a bit of a "catch all". Able to equally service all waterblock design approaches from the high-pressure drop to the low-pressure drop. Realistically not expecting to achieve much better than 10LPM in a full setup since the pump would not be running anywhere near its 13LPM max when in service on even a very low restriction full system.

One thing I'm wary of with the really high pressure centrifugal pumps is that they tend to cavitate quite heavily unless they have a good amount of restriction on them. Even the Iwaki MD-30RZ I have here is only borderline happy with the Cascade, and with the White Water will cavitate slightly due to lack of sufficient back-pressure.

Would want to be careful that the moment that people match up a White Water with said pump that it starts to cavitate heavily.

I'm sure you're probably aware of all this though, but just wanted to highlight the reasoning behind my 6mH2O/13LPM values whereby the pump would be kept within its normal duty point operating range without cavitating across a wide range of block types.

Have often thought that the MCP600/AQX-50Z running at 4750RPM would do the job perfectly, if the magnetic assembly could cope with it (which it can't).
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Unread 11-16-2004, 06:35 PM   #166
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cavitation and noise are both valid points

manufacturer assured me that cavitation won't be an issue with that 12V pump (which may become the AQX-100Z), in our application and its noise characteristics are similar to the AQX-50Z, but I have to try it myself before commenting on that.

well, actually this pump is like the AQX-50Z running @ 5500rpm

BTW the pump comes with 5/16" (8mm) connector on the pressure side, and 9/16" (14mm) on the suction side.

i also have another 24V pump that i received couple months ago with the following specs:
Connection Discharge x Suction Inch (mm) = 11/16" x 11/16" (18 x 18)
Max Flow: 4.2GPM (16 L/min)
Max Head: 27ft (8.2m)
Output x Input (W): 30x55

Size:
W: 4.41" (112mm)
H: 4.69" (119mm)
L: 4.65" (118mm)

now this one (equiavalent of the RD-20), which is also available in 12V, it cavitates when there's no good amount of restriction just as you already mentioned. So I can imagine how it's with the RD30 and 30RZ.

and I'll see about the AQX-100Z, once I receive the sample.
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Last edited by dacooltech; 11-16-2004 at 06:41 PM.
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Unread 11-16-2004, 07:00 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dacooltech
i also have another 24V pump that i received couple months ago with the following specs:
Connection Discharge x Suction Inch (mm) = 11/16" x 11/16" (18 x 18)
Max Flow: 4.2GPM (16 L/min)
Max Head: 27ft (8.2m)
Output x Input (W): 30x55

Size:
W: 4.41" (112mm)
H: 4.69" (119mm)
L: 4.65" (118mm)
Now this one sounds interesting in terms of a pump that spans the spectrum. Run it at 75% impeller speed, stick 14mm connectors on it, and at 12v, and it'd be what we're after. Heck, even if it came with the 18mm connectors, and could just be run at 75% speed and at 12v via some firmware mod to the controller, that'd still be near ideal.

How open are these pumping companies to doing smallish changes like that?
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Unread 11-16-2004, 07:04 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chew_Toy
I dont have tech knolege you have, I did have a fair amount 33 years ago (almost 2 years at a good engineering school MSOE but I had a low draft number 103 that I got on my 19th birthday, and never went back after I got out)
wasn't being in education a way to avoid the draft??
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Unread 11-16-2004, 07:12 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Now this one sounds interesting in terms of a pump that spans the spectrum. Run it at 75% impeller speed, stick 14mm connectors on it, and at 12v, and it'd be what we're after. Heck, even if it came with the 18mm connectors, and could just be run at 75% speed and at 12v via some firmware mod to the controller, that'd still be near ideal.

How open are these pumping companies to doing smallish changes like that?
I'm pretty sure they can do those changes. Even if they don't (meaning require certain annual commitment etc.) it's possible to get the 12V version w/ NPT threads to be used with various type / size connector, and run it at lower voltage.

But this pump is $$$$ and it's big...

I'll check with the manufacturer and get back to you though...
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Unread 11-16-2004, 07:17 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dacooltech
But this pump is $$$$ and it's big...
Oh, if it's super-pricey then that's no good. Anything more than $100 would be a hard sell to people who will happily buy a $40 pump (Mag 3) and liberally goop it up to over-come its leaks and poor quality control. Probably an extremely difficult price-point to achieve though given the present state of the US dollar.
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Unread 11-16-2004, 07:30 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Oh, if it's super-pricey then that's no good. Anything more than $100 would be a hard sell to people who will happily buy a $40 pump (Mag 3) and liberally goop it up to over-come its leaks and poor quality control. Probably an extremely difficult price-point to achieve though given the present state of the US dollar.
My guesstimate on the price is $250-$300 range
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Unread 11-16-2004, 07:32 PM   #172
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man, that better have gold plating
lol
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Unread 11-16-2004, 07:34 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
man, that better have gold plating
lol
well the color is yellow, but there's no sign of gold :shrug:
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Unread 11-16-2004, 08:03 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldenton
wasn't being in education a way to avoid the draft??
Yes that is true. But in my home town of Madison WI the students had a nice protest that turned a lil violent. They fire bombed the draft board and burned up a buch of records of which my 2s was one of. I was never told I didnt have one tilll it was too late to get it reinstated.

Strange as it sounds one of my friends I met in Korea I found out was one of those that did it LOL.

I am sure if you do a search you can find lots of info of the protests and riots in Madison in the late 60s and early 70s that along with the bombing of the math center which was a real big deal.
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Unread 11-16-2004, 09:42 PM   #175
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Is this thread officially derailed then?

http://www.procooling.com/reviews/ht..._waterbloc.php
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