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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 03-17-2005, 12:17 PM   #76
Voodoo Rufus
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So is there any reason to believe the DDC inlet mod will significantly decrease its service life?
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Unread 03-17-2005, 12:19 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
Max,
I think the aluminum case is still best for threaded fittings. Given there is little exposed area and the Anolok finishing is very corrosive resistant.
From the little I've seen (spent a couple of years a long time ago working on high-pressure hydraulics), fitting threads, particularly for tapered fittings, are the one point where a surface treatment will fail.
You are supplying the male fittings as well? Something softer than the Anolock surface?
Also - is Anolock electrically driven? Or is it a acid-dye process? If it is electrical, I'd be concerned with getting a good coating on the thread root of female threads, which, I think gets a good workout in tapered fittings - not just the thread flanks...
I'm sure you went through all this - sorry to be an armchair quarterback...
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Unread 03-18-2005, 06:34 AM   #78
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Quote:
Speaking of the DDC, Dan keeps asking me why we engineers work our butts off to design a 50,000 hour pump, when you guys are going to mod it?

You do understand the mod's you guys are making will have an effect on total operating rating, with both electrical components and bearings?
Heh.... the answer to that can be found by looking at the market you're selling to... Note here the percentages are VERY rough and plucked atop my head as a "for instance"...

1) Out of the current population that use watercooling, 5% are purists or are fully aware of what they are doing (the ranks of Cathar etc). 20% are getting there (the likes of meself). The remaining 75% have it cos their mates have got it and it makes them feel like their willy is smaller until they get the same, or because a magazine says they should buy it.

2) So, out of that 100%, you then have a second breakdown - the honesty barrier. You have those that'll buy a product, leave it at stock to retain it's warranty, and if they DO decide to mod it, will do so once warranty has expired or will leave it at stock permanently. You then have those that'll buy a product, mod it straight away and completely abandon the warranty and if it dies, it dies. Those two groups probably account for 45% MAXIMUM of the watercooling market, and are generally those who if they DO need to RMA it, will use the manufacturer's RMA over the reseller's RMA if it exists. The remaining chunk consists of those who'll happily buy it, mod it, invalidate warranty by doing so, item fails, they'll remove mods, spend days restoring it to it's factory state, then RMA it anyways. In Europe, inevitably the replacement is issued by the reseller as that's where it got returned to, and that's what EC law dictates. It's not cost effective to be forwarding RMAs over to the US etc.... cheaper to write them off entirely in a lot of cases due to shipping costs etc.

3) On here you have the small international representation of those resellers who prefer the honesty approach imo. The thing being, what those on here say is generally taken as the rule of thumb once it's filtered from here to other sites. Most of what gets said about a product on here will spread down the grapevine, basically leaving it in a state that if one of a number of ppl on ProCooling Forums said it, then it's not to be argued with, taken as correct, and becomes adopted as a new law... this isn't a BAD thing at all.... it's a superb thing due to the quality of info and the strong residence in FACTUAL based info backed up by consolidated testing and methodology... so altho at the moment your efforts to design a 50k hour pump is primarily for the few, once it gains the approval of those few the word will swiftly spread, and everyone will want a willy as big as the guys on here have.

Summary: If ProCooling announces a product worth having, the grapevine will do the rest and the product will inevitably sell. If ProCooling slates a product, the same effect, and the product won't sell... by satisfying the few, you eventually satisfy the many. And hence sales on the CSP-750 were never as they were originally expected to be...

As long as your own back is covered by ensuring everything you say is factual and proveable thru testing within the market sector to which the product is aimed, you have nothing to worry about... and your consumer market and resellers will have nothing to worry about.

Note: 2 other folks read this prior to posting and all said it was confusing to read, but I can't word it any better in my current state - you get my drift tho hopefully...!
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Unread 03-18-2005, 07:20 AM   #79
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Seemed clear enough to me marci.
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Unread 03-18-2005, 09:47 AM   #80
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a second here
its the factual basis for starters, THEN the ability/willingness/freedom (?) to admit one's errors and provide a meaningful warranty

an interesting example should transpire in the next day or two illustrating this last point
- and may be considered a defining difference as compared to the activities of other pump mfgrs
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Unread 03-18-2005, 09:55 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marci
Summary: I...If ProCooling slates a product, the same effect, and the product won't sell...
As a contrary case in point, there were a lot of negative comments about the reserator here - but a lot of folks seem to have bought them (as judged by the comments over on the silent pc watercooling forum - and by the "me too" products appearing.)
Given the shape of these things, you may be spot on about the "willy" stuff, though...

Last edited by bobkoure; 03-19-2005 at 06:51 AM. Reason: wrong homonym
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Unread 03-18-2005, 10:00 AM   #82
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the Resorator is a BIG seller in Europe, as silence is more appreciated in that marketplace
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Unread 03-18-2005, 11:20 AM   #83
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BIG seller in Europe
depends.
in portugal, great majority (that i've seen) has these, or these.
alot cheaper. full kit (AC,Alpha, etc) costs about half a reserator kit.
not successful.

note that bi rads were, for a long period of time, here, very expensive.
not anymore (thankfully).

Quote:
...that marketplace
not a general consensus ?
good, yet quiet*, at least?
still, "good" can mean sufficient in most cases, not particulary efficient.
winner there.

* with all relativity.
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Unread 03-18-2005, 04:06 PM   #84
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Very good post Marci and as an engineer, much of what you suggest scare's the hell out of me

On the other hand, as a customer service rep, I must agree with many of your comments. I do however disagree with your summary, also using the 750 as example.

If one where to read this board, thanks in large part to slam campaign by we all know who, the 750 would be assumed to have low sales. In fact AVT was never able to meet demand, and even now sales still exceed several thousand pieces per month. We no longer sell the unit to the general public for many of the reason you suggest, well our industrial customers are very happy and our market for the product continues to grow, thanks more too personal experience then forum comments.

Hopefully there is simple answers that will allow manufactures to protect themselves from RMA's do to abuse and modifications. It would be nice if Laing could just add a seal to prevent disassembly, but then the issue of how to clean results?

In the long term I believe these issues will soon go away, given the products I seen developed at AVT, C-Systems and have read about from other companies.
The trend is clearly for very long term fully sealed systems in which any modification will clearly be noticed. I believe this type of OEM application is what the DDC was developed for?

Dan is always lecturing me about the difference between an OEM, and a general retail product. Marci's post clearly indicates the real engineering concern differences between them are.

**I forgot why I came in here. The C-Systems retail pages should be back up this weekend. They are still working on the new site so there maybe daily changes.
Sorry for any problems that resulted from my bad WEB work.

Last edited by Dave; 03-18-2005 at 04:14 PM.
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Unread 03-18-2005, 04:30 PM   #85
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"thanks in large part to slam campaign by we all know who"
be honest Dave, I never described a failure because I never had a failure

please:
every failure/problem described with a C-Systems pump was by someone OTHER than myself
- killing the messenger ?

if you think this is a forum where problems are NOT discussed, you are in error
a problem anticipated is, potentially, a problem avoided
so it is logical that a new product would be analyzed critically, and by me VERY CRITICALLY due do my poor experience with pumps and pump mfgrs (now changing thankfully)
- the C-Systems pump did about as predicted, but note that I understood more about the application than (perhaps ?) C-Systems did, certainly this is changing as can be seen from your posts

-> N.B. Swiftech is not a pump mfgr, we buy the things
but with lots of bad experience we do know some of the pitfalls
Swiftech and C-Systems are not competitors, you should be more concerned with Laing products than my commentary; there is your benchmark
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Unread 03-18-2005, 04:40 PM   #86
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I believe you just made my point.

I understand there are several ports related to problems with other companies products, including your own, and yet no one from our group is posting links too them?

C-Systems will like dismiss me over this post, but I need time of for spring hunt anyways.
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Unread 03-18-2005, 05:04 PM   #87
BillA
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Dave,
I've no wish to generate problems for you, its pretty much an intellectual process for me

are you referring to the Laing DDC ?
after considerable effort the 'facts' are now known and Monday all will be revealed - and I think you WILL be surprised
-> compare to post #34

lets let this go until Tuesday, I would be interested in your comparison between 2 pump mfgrs

again Dave, I am not a competitor of yours - that is Laing
but when I see clearly an impending train wreck, I speak
don't really know why other than to be able to say later "I told you so", apparently my howling at the moon had little effect on your sales

your concern is with your pumps, my concern is with the acceptance of WCing
any pump failures hurt us all
and I really do not like post #34
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Unread 03-18-2005, 06:36 PM   #88
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I have a pair of mark II's where one has died and the other makes such a racket as to be unusable. My system is neiter restrictive (1/2" ID) nor am i running the pumps in series. There is no corrosion in my water, and the only thing i can conclude is that they BOTH have succumbed to manufacturer defect. Where can i send these back to "upgrade" to this new series?

As i paid good money for each of these pumps, i do hope that i will not be expected to pay a fee to have a warranty issue replaced.

Thank You.
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Unread 03-18-2005, 06:42 PM   #89
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gazorp
I would suggest that you not do RMA stuff in a presumably technical thread

PM Dave or contact your vendor
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Unread 03-18-2005, 11:52 PM   #90
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Quote:
Max,
I think the aluminum case is still best for threaded fittings.
I still don't see why it would be terribly difficult to use a soft, millable plastic in place of aluminum.

Quote:
Given there is little exposed area and the Anolok finishing is very corrosive resistant.
I don't have a perfect memory, but I think I recall a couple of people posting about corrosion inside of their CSP 750s. Anyone else remember that? Even if this is not the case, anondization is not a perfect process. Some parts of the pump housing may not recieve adequate coating. You could stop the whining of a lot of people (and make some of these threads a lot shorter) if you avoided using aluminum.

Has anyone noticed that swiftech is moving away from alumium parts at a slow but steady rate? Remember the 5000 series tops? Anondized aluminum. You know what the 6000 series tops are made of? Copper. Bill isn't doing this arbitrarily. Any aluminum in a loop with any copper will cause problems at some point. At least that's my view and the view of many others. Because of this, my MCW-50 will soon be replaced by a danger den Acetal Maze 4 GPU (no offense bill, I just feel a bit more comfortable with a nearly inert derlin top as opposed to a potentially corrosive aluminum top).

Dave: I'm nit picking because it's late here, I am alone, and I am bored. I wish c-systems the best with the CSP-Mag. In fact it would be a welcome competitor to the DDC.

....Gasps for breath after long, rambling post....
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Unread 03-19-2005, 08:43 AM   #91
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Max, not sure if I can say this but I am on short time anyways

We have a plastic threaded case, and several of our testers had problems with metal fittings, with one person even splitting the case. It would require a larger case to overcome this problem. We could not use a stronger plastic as it would not flow properly in our mold. We discussed this with several of our main dealers, and determined this case was not a good idea with NPT fittings. They also noted current case apperance over this test model.

I have never seen any kind of pitting on a Mark II, only on some early Mark I blue models, which where processed by another anodizing contractor. From what I know about anodizing, it is not a perfect process as you suggest, but I also understand Anolok results in much less problems. You should be aware plastic is not a perfect process either, alot can go wrong during production, trust me I know

I understand bard plastic cases are on the way, thanks to a recent OEM order.
I do not know when so please do not email me. We are really swamped with OEM, industrial, and parent company orders. The mag and 750 are being used in at least 10 new consumer products I know, and likely many more I do not know about. I am currently collecting permissions to post links to these products on C-Systems site.
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Unread 03-19-2005, 05:32 PM   #92
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Default ... I'm starting to sound like a broken record...

Quote:
We have a plastic threaded case, and several of our testers had problems with metal fittings, with one person even splitting the case.
Dave:

In order for this to happen, the plastic must have been fairly weak and brittle.

The aluminum casing are obviously machined. Am I correct? Danger Den uses an acetal top on their maze 4 gpu blocks (which, as far as I know, are machined). I haven't seen any reports of cracking with the acetal tops, granted they have not been on the market long. Just a suggestion, one off a case with from acetal (aka derlin).

Or you could just wait until one of us does it as a mod. Let us know when the pumps will be available to consumers. Thanks for keeping us posted.
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Unread 03-19-2005, 05:50 PM   #93
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It is Delrin not Derlin.

There are two types of Acetal. One is "Acetal homopolymer" AKA Delrin.

The other "Acetal copolymer" is actually better from what I understand. It's AKA is Ultraform or Celecon. It has better chemical resistances than Delrin and seems to be stronger. What I don't know is if it machines as easy as Delrin.
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Unread 03-19-2005, 06:11 PM   #94
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My mistake. SP error.
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Unread 03-19-2005, 06:31 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxSaleen
My mistake. SP error.
I called it Derlin for a long time untill I used it at work and noticed it was Delrin when I had to order more.
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Unread 03-19-2005, 06:39 PM   #96
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Plastic will sometimes give un-expected results Max.
The area that split was not directly on the thread shaft. It was in an area where the stress from the taper focused, in the pump chamber itself. More people just plan stripped the threads. The plastic we used for this test was PPE, because of flow concerns. We re-designed using a two piece system with the volute chamber seperate. It is this extra peice that is used in retail Mag's.

Delrin is a great material, but it does not have good flow when used in injection molding with thin sections. We use Delrin in the pump volute insert where wall thickness is higher.

If everyone is really that concerned about Anolok in a small area, I will ask about the barb dates, and maybe bring back the plastic thread case for G 1/4 fittings only (no taper). I see there getting the WEB pages fitted, and the new ones are working well. I had email the store was back up, and the whole site maybe down for a day or two next week, well they switch over to a new server / host, as the DNS needs time to broadcast.

I am just glad not to do WEB work anymore
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Unread 03-19-2005, 07:04 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
We are really swamped with OEM, industrial, and parent company orders. The mag and 750 are being used in at least 10 new consumer products I know, and likely many more I do not know about. I am currently collecting permissions to post links to these products on C-Systems site.
Hi, Dave.
I'm from Brazil and i've purchased a MAG for testing.
I produce a hi-turbulenced WaterBlock, called MORINGA (Copper base with 19 turbulence copper pins, brass cover, chromed finishing including copper barbs).
I'm running with a AC Pump, manufactured by Invensys (in loop 6 l/min), but it is 10cm tall. My intention is to use your pump to substitute that on my assembly line.
My personal unit is running (24hours x 7days x 6 months) a XP1800+ @2300Mhz with room temp 28ºC - CPU temp 29,9 ºC.
Would C-System MAG overperforme my actual pump?

For everybody: i'm sorry for my bad english






Last edited by Arivaldo; 03-19-2005 at 07:09 PM.
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Unread 03-19-2005, 09:10 PM   #98
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Sweet block... any chance you'll ship to the states? If so how much? (even if its not for me, I'm sure someone would ask at some point).
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Unread 03-20-2005, 06:45 AM   #99
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Block does look very cool!
Not sure if MAG will improve your temps, sounds like you already have more then enough flow.

I think your only advantage will be DC vs AC and rpm input.

You should know, the products I posted about are NOT for PC liquid cooling. There all industrial or consumer products. We only recently excepted very large orders for PC cooling and this is for servers, not home systems (at least this is what we where told).

We have developed complete sealed systems at AVT under contract, but it is unlikely we will get the production contract as well. It is not very often that AVT gets to produce what we develop.
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Unread 03-20-2005, 09:15 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxSaleen
Sweet block... any chance you'll ship to the states? If so how much? (even if its not for me, I'm sure someone would ask at some point).
Thanks.
For now, i'm improving construction method and making some changes on turbulence pins. So, it's out of stock, until complete these work.
I've sold for $45 USD including silicone/pvc hose and plexiglass retaining clip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
...I think your only advantage will be DC vs AC and rpm input...
RPM input sound very well. As well nice size of C-System pumps. But i'm really concerned about eletromagnetic interference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
...You should know, the products I posted about are NOT for PC liquid cooling. There all industrial or consumer products...
That's InvensysAppliance problem: their pumps do not have any magnetic shield (just plastic cover) and generate a lot of EMF. My monitor image is flickering at 30cm distance of pump.

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