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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 03-20-2005, 10:17 AM   #101
jaydee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
Delrin is a great material, but it does not have good flow when used in injection molding with thin sections. We use Delrin in the pump volute insert where wall thickness is higher.
I think you missed the machining part. Instead of using aluminum stock and milling it use Delrin stock instead. No need for injection molding, just use the machine process already setup and change your feed rate speeds (probably faster to mill) and maybe cutters (probably no need to though).

But anyway that's in an ideal world.
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Unread 03-20-2005, 10:37 AM   #102
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No need to worry about EMF with Mag, Arivaldo.
The pump was designed so it could be placed right next to the CPU.

We produce more of those pumps for industrial use because most OEM companies order in very large numbers to reduce there cost.

Machine the whole back housing out of Delrin Jay?
I don't know, I never tried to machine colored Delrin before.
What is the finish like?

We only machine it for prototypes and use natural.

I suspect engineering wise it will work fine, maybe expensive. I guess the only issue is finish?

Done for the day and going home
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Unread 03-20-2005, 10:41 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
No need to worry about EMF with Mag, Arivaldo.
The pump was designed so it could be placed right next to the CPU.

We produce more of those pumps for industrial use because most OEM companies order in very large numbers to reduce there cost.

Machine the whole back housing out of Delrin Jay?
I don't know, I never tried to machine colored Delrin before.
What is the finish like?

We only machine it for prototypes and use natural.

I suspect engineering wise it will work fine, maybe expensive. I guess the only issue is finish?

Done for the day and going home
Cathar makes the G4-G5 with it and it comes out pretty sweet. The middle pice and the top is both Delrin. I should not be any harder to machine than Aluminum, probably faster. But that is just a theory.



Have a nice day!
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Unread 03-25-2005, 06:01 AM   #104
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Sorry but I did not get to make a Delrin MAG case this week.

We have had major problems at work. Our magnetizing system started to malfunction early this week. We spent 4 days isolating all the problems and will be down for a week or two rebuilding it.

We also ran out of MAG stock, more parts will be in next week but without magnets there not much use. C-Systems should have stock again in 2-3 weeks.

Some of you may find our problems interesting. In order to magnetize Neo based rare earth magnets, you must use large amounts of electrical charge. We have a charger about 6 feet high by 3 wide consisting mostly of large liquid capacitors.

A transformer charges the capacitors, and then we release all the energy at once into a magnetic fixture. The fixture consist of large coils with an iron care in the shape of the magnetic and pattern you wish to apply on to it.

So much energy is applied to this core that we need to water cool it just like a PC !

The amount of mechanical stress on the core is very high. In our case too the point where the core was cracked. I was charging some prototype high force magnets for a high pressure MAG version last Friday, and it looks like I over stressed the fixture and caused the crack. This crack grew and shorted the coils, which cause problems with our charger.

Sorry if this is boring you, but as an engineer I think it is impressive to break metal with magnetic force.
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Unread 03-25-2005, 08:14 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
So much energy is applied to this core that we need to water cool it just like a PC !...
...Sorry if this is boring you, but as an engineer I think it is impressive to break metal with magnetic force.
It make me impressed too. I presume it uses chilled water...

Just in case, i hope my Mag order has already been shipped before that crack.
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Unread 03-29-2005, 06:16 PM   #106
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No it is not chilled, we just use a small AC pump and a Black Ice rad.

I cut a standard retail MAG pump housing today out of black Acetal, and it looks real nice. Very hard to tell the aluminum drive housing from the plastic pump housing, as I used the same finishing belts and did a quick polishing pass afterwards.

Will try and take some pictures tomorrow.

Thanks too the boys at DD for there input, I figured they where the people to ask about best finish settings.

I should have approval for this option soon, and will also see about a simple mold.

Great suggestion guys
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Unread 03-29-2005, 06:24 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
No it is not chilled, we just use a small AC pump and a Black Ice rad.

I cut a standard retail MAG pump housing today out of black Acetal, and it looks real nice. Very hard to tell the aluminum drive housing from the plastic pump housing, as I used the same finishing belts and did a quick polishing pass afterwards.

Will try and take some pictures tomorrow.

Thanks too the boys at DD for there input, I figured they where the people to ask about best finish settings.

I should have approval for this option soon, and will also see about a simple mold.

Great suggestion guys
Sounds good!
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Unread 03-29-2005, 08:21 PM   #108
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oo I can't wait to see it and would definatly like to get my hands on one.
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Unread 03-30-2005, 04:31 AM   #109
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Quote:
I cut a standard retail MAG pump housing today out of black Acetal, and it looks real nice. Very hard to tell the aluminum drive housing from the plastic pump housing, as I used the same finishing belts and did a quick polishing pass afterwards.... [snip]

...I should have approval for this option soon, and will also see about a simple mold.
It would appear you already have approval fella... I just received an e-mail from C-Systems basically saying our order is awaiting our decision as to whether we want NPT or G1/4 threads, whether we want rear or top inlet, and whether we want Delrin or Aluminium body (none of these options were originally made available to us when the pumps were ordered at the backend of last year).

Have gone for rear inlet, G1/4, Delrin body... wise decision??
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Unread 03-30-2005, 06:48 AM   #110
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^So I see. AVT sent engineering approval to C-Systems this morning, and I understand someone already placed in a large order, perhaps yours?

I guess I will be making a mold soon, which is good, because I do not feel good about being paid for 10 hours a week by C-Systems, and spending 9 hours if this doing nothing
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Unread 03-30-2005, 07:03 AM   #111
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Hmmm... no can do on the G1/4 as can't source fittings at a decent price so have changed that to Delrin / Rear Inlet / NPT Thread....

And aye, more than likley it'll be our order... we actually ordered a LOAD of 750MkII's back in September I think last year, received 50% of the order, then the news popped up regarding the MAGs coming out. Sales on the 750MkII's dropped off as soon as that news hit the shelves, and we flipped the remaining 50% of our order over to MAGs there n' then and been sat waitin' patiently since!

Look forward to seeing them in Delrin... u not got a digicamera handy there d00d??
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Unread 03-30-2005, 06:05 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
I would also like to inform my design changes for a back mounted inlet have been approved.
Once tested, you will have the option of which type of inlet you wish, and the parts can be interchanged.
Dave,
Could you please explain me about that back inlet.
I'm a little confused with diagram at C-Systems page.
Thank you again.

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Unread 03-30-2005, 07:47 PM   #113
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Delrin/Acetal, my suggestion? Dosn't matter, as I am glad to see it as an option as others will be. I really hope C-Systems delivers this time. Would you happen to know how dtek and/or danger den ordered their pumps (they will probably be the only retailers an end user such as myself would be able to obtain one from)?

Quote:
looks like I over stressed the fixture and caused the crack. This crack grew and shorted the coils, which cause problems with our charger.
... the beauty of physics....
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Unread 03-31-2005, 05:53 AM   #114
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Arivaldo, almost everything on the WEB page is from old prototypes built way back in 2004.

Our final impeller, bearings, and drive have not been presented on the WEB site.
C-Systems has hired another firm to redesign the WEB site and hopefully will be updated soon. The final design is very compact and versatile allowing the drive section to be used in many different configurations.

I will send pictures to the new WEB masters for placement on the C-Systems site, so you can see the difference in port options.
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Unread 04-01-2005, 02:02 PM   #115
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Dave,
I don't know Mag new impeller configuration, but i'd like to suggest you to make it closed. Sounds to be more efficient.


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Unread 04-09-2005, 06:30 PM   #116
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Hello!

What about the PQ curves that were promised? I'd like to have an idea of the flow and pressure.We could have a graphic with the pump configured for the largest pressure and one for the largest water flow. I am from Europe and more interested in pumps with high head pressure.

What about the new website and new pics?

Also, no news about the rebate for owner of CSP750 pumps?

PS/ Omg, I almost forgot this question: has someone already received a unit for testing?
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Unread 04-09-2005, 10:35 PM   #117
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While we have a decent discussion about pumps going....

Does anyone know what makes a pump have a high head (read: pressure) rating? How about a high flow rating? What produces more pressure, closed or open impeller? What produces a larger flow rate, a close or open impeller? What type of an impeller do most our pumps use (MCP600,650,350, eheims, mags, iwakis)? Do certain structural limitations exist when using a closed impeller? What is the benefit to using an open impeller? I feel that this would be good general information for the community to have.

I would tend to say that a closed impeller is more efficient overall. It would be the equivalent of having two open impellers facing each other (a rough analysis). Open impeller pumps can be smaller, are easier to manufacture, and are much easier to design as a mag drive (to the best of my knowledge). Most of the pumps that we use are open impellers with the exception of iwakis which are closed. I honestly don't know about the MCP 650. Anyone else want to chime in?
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Unread 04-10-2005, 02:59 PM   #118
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I believe the MCP350\DDC, MCP600\50Z, MCP650\D4 all use closed impellor designs(high head). Most aquarium mag pumps use open impellors(high flow).
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Unread 04-10-2005, 06:49 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wang
I believe the MCP350\DDC, MCP600\50Z, MCP650\D4 all use closed impellor designs(high head). Most aquarium mag pumps use open impellors(high flow).
AC pumps use open impeller because they do not have a direction for rotation so they can not use curved blades.
With DC uni-direction pumps we can use curved blades on impeller and making them closed reduce attrition inside chamber increasing performance at all.
With open impeller power is lost by fluid attrition at volute (internal wall chamber).
I noticed that MCP350 / Laing uses closed impeller.
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Unread 04-10-2005, 08:40 PM   #120
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Eh? An AC motor will always spin the same way, so you can use curved blades if desired. AC fans work after all.
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Unread 04-11-2005, 07:18 AM   #121
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Weather a pump is AC or DC is a very arbitrary way of determining open or closed impeller. Iwakis are closed impeller are they not? They are AC are they not? I'm quite confident that the MCP600 is an open impeller pump (I have one right here I would be more than happy to take it out of its loop and look inside). I would not be surprised if the MCP350 was closed impeller (after all, it has such a high head rating) though I have a hard time imagining how to design a closed impeller in a pump without a center inlet. Further more I don't think you could mod a closed impeller pump to have a center inlet. Perhaps bill would care to clarify some of this?
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Unread 04-11-2005, 07:42 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butcher
Eh? An AC motor will always spin the same way, so you can use curved blades if desired. AC fans work after all.
In case of these Aquarium Mag pumps (eheim, maxijet, resun, via aqua, hydor), which use magnetic rotor (instead of iron build), the spin is "crazy". That is the reason of many starting noise, like "clicks" inside volute.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MAG DRIVE WATER PUMP by EUGENE DANNER
Uses half the power of conventional pumps.
Only one moving part means that there aren't any seals to wear out. Approved for indoor and outdoor use. The Mag-Drive utility pump is a magnetically-driven, submersible pump. This unique energy-efficient design uses only one moving part - a ceramic/magnetic impeller. Originally conceived as a circulating pump for fresh and saltwater aquariums and ponds, the Mag-Drive's inherent characteristics make it ideal for pool maintenance applications as well.

Iwaki ones use conventional iron rotor and have a direction so can use curved blades.


Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.iwakiwalchem.com
Use of impeller trim allows smaller package and selection of more efficient pumps. High-efficiency closed impellers are a separate component that mates to the magnet capsule. This precise trim, along with an optimized bearing system, provides an extremely long service life.
Iwaki America offers specialized impeller designs that provide specific performance curve shapes. Our 6Z, 20Z, 30Z and 70Z are prime examples showing low flow high discharge pressure curve shapes.
For OEM applications we will design an impeller to meet a specific duty point and curve shape. These impellers offer solutions for specific applications that require a flat curve vs.a steep curve and for those applications where the available power for the motor is limited. By designing an application specific impeller we may be able to also offer a smaller package product where space is limited.
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Unread 04-11-2005, 08:53 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxSaleen
Iwakis are closed impeller are they not?
The MD-XXrz's are and the RD-XX's are too i think.
Quote:
I'm quite confident that the MCP600 is an open impeller pump (I have one right here I would be more than happy to take it out of its loop and look inside)
No need too, it's a closed design.
Quote:
I would not be surprised if the MCP350 was closed impeller (after all, it has such a high head rating) though I have a hard time imagining how to design a closed impeller in a pump without a center inlet.
It is a center inlet, it just starts off in a different location.
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Unread 04-11-2005, 08:54 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arivaldo
In case of these Aquarium Mag pumps (eheim, maxijet, resun, via aqua, hydor), which use magnetic rotor (instead of iron build), the spin is "crazy". That is the reason of many starting noise, like "clicks" inside volute.
For what reason? They essentially spin a magnetic field which pulls the impellor round since it has attached magnets. That's not particularly crazy... It's not dissimilar to how a brushless fan works.
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Unread 04-11-2005, 09:40 AM   #125
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I think arivaldo meant to say "random". I've heard this before but I can't remember where or what the reasoning was. You make a valid point, Butcher. Perhaps the "random" spin has to do with the way the impeller is mounted (just a random guess). Maybe at some stage the AC current in Iwakis gets transformed into DC? Such circuitry would be quite simple (a diode and some caps).

Phextwin: thanks for the reply. I just looked at my MCP350 and see that the inlet tapers itself all the way to the center of the pump. That was careless for me to miss something so obvious.
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