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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 11-21-2005, 08:29 PM   #201
Long Haired Git
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Ssssh, no talking, I'm trying to listen and understand what they're saying.
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Unread 11-21-2005, 10:27 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Haired Git
Ssssh, no talking, I'm trying to listen and understand what they're saying.
Listening is easy. Understanding is hard. Learning is what its all about.
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Unread 11-21-2005, 11:48 PM   #203
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I know this horse is more than dead, but this strikes me as particularly concerning. Note the highlighted section, taken from HERE bottom of page 77.

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Unread 11-22-2005, 12:06 AM   #204
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aww man, I was hoping it had unlimited reliability and was future proof to simulate intel's chips well into 2010.
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Unread 11-22-2005, 07:01 AM   #205
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Also note that not all I-TTV's are created equally. Intel appears to make specific TTV's for each particular CPU (the stated resistance is typically different between models). I don't know what TTV Swiftech is using but I suspect it is one of the newer versions, possibly even modelling a dual core CPU???
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Unread 11-22-2005, 08:13 AM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmCensor
Listening is easy. Understanding is hard. Learning is what its all about.
Scott and Lee, you are referred to post#183
there are many things I may not discuss
please do not assume that because you are not told, that something stupid was done by Intel, Swiftech, or myself

why would anyone, having gone to the trouble to make a dual core TTV we will assume, then use it to replicate a single core - when such single core TTVs already exist ?
- apply this to Intel, Swiftech, and the guy doing the testing
all incompetent ? possible, but not probable

Scott
I accept that your questions are genuine; each model improves on that before
if the tool were so flawed, do you not think that a better one would be developed ?
you are assisting in the 'condemnation' of a test method about which you, and clearly Cathar, have no experience and little real info
I am unable to do other than share my experience in a general manner

it is rather strange that the only 'info' accepted w/o question is from Cathar, who has ok testing (we accept) but no hard data sets at all
yet those who do provide data are subjected to claims of bias, stupidity, incompetence, etc

Lee
I wish you luck in dealing with the IHS issue
there seems some (considerable by those who do such) anecdotal evidence that the AMD IHS/CPU TIM joint degrades with repeated mountings (and thermal cycling if sub-zero), I have not heard of this issue with Intel CPUs (anyone ?)
-> so if you use an AMD CPU, how do 'we' know its TIM joint was/is ok ? (how do we measure 'ok' ?)
I would suggest that a before and after test be defined to 'qualify' the internal TIM joint to eliminate this question (raised by Cathar and does need to be directly addressed)
it you groove your CPU, you could then play head games using all the different CPU temps available for a rainbow of C/Ws (of course W is not known either); a pissing contest par excellance (which I KNOW is what you do not want)

you will have difficulty 'selling' bare die data to IHS users w/o defining the correlation, a task I would not assume
perhaps better to present bare die and IHS data separatly, the user selects that which relates to their actual application

realism never hurt
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Unread 11-22-2005, 08:41 AM   #207
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Quote:
-> so if you use an AMD CPU, how do 'we' know its TIM joint was/is ok ? (how do we measure 'ok' ?)
Good question hereby exemplified - we get frequent cases of NEW as well as 2nd hand / subjected-to-frequent-mount-and-dismount CPUs exhibiting ridiculously high temps on a setup that with the same model CPU formerly produced much better results. Repeat mountings showed no evidence of solution. Removed IHS, and resulting temps beat the hell out of the previous CPU with IHS that exhibited peachy temps.

ie: (worded better) Storm G4, D5, HE120.1 and some unsuitable fan. All variables constant (ambient, liq temp, flowrate, pressure, airflow etc)

[3200+ sample A] under load at 38 deg C. [3200+ sample B] under load at 49 deg C. Cooling system not changed. CPU is only change. Repeated mounting to elliminate. Only point that we have no control over is the IHS > Die joint. Remove IHS from [sample B] and temps become sound. Better than [sample A]. Remove IHS from [Sample A] and temps match [Sample B]. The only establishable flaw - IHS. Becoming more and more frequent round here, and we only handle AMD CPUs. Very rarely ever have an Intel CPU coming thru our doors. Lucky if more than 5 a year vs a massive quantity of AMD in comparison.



Thus I tend to assume watercooling market is predominantly AMD based. Or enough so over Intel users to warrant testing being done in preference on AMD based simulation rather than Intel.

Don't have experience of Intel IHS flaw rate to compare. Did you gain any info on sales levels whilst at Swiftech Bill, Intel blocks vs AMD blocks?? Universality of Storm rules it's sales levels out form being useful, but 6000 series would be... Is my assumption based on our sales reflected elsewhere by anyone else (block manufacturer would be handy here - DD, Swiftech)? It's at the point where we literally don't consider Intel at all in any of our equations... technical, sales, purchasing or otherwise. This is over 9yrs of sales at highstreet component level, highstreet off-the-shelf PC level, and online via enthusiast aimed online store.

Quote:
perhaps better to present bare die and IHS data separatly
Indeed - if no solution can be decided upon, simply (?) do both. Satisfies all arguments - before folks fall out past point of restore, which no-one wants. *passes round the chocolate biscuits*

However, those results only self-comparable unless all have access to same TTV and same Diesim - or correlative formulae provided to calc. Back to the same old worms... new can.
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Unread 11-22-2005, 09:06 AM   #208
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Stew is a source of 1st rate chocolate biscuits

cannot comment on sales, but Intel is not to be ignored
not everyone will pop the lid, that being said the longevity of an Intel CPU is worth considering - which apparently some do (?)
I do not use CPUs as heat sources, but were I to do so it would never be an AMD CPU due to the IHS TIM joint
- CPU heat is just heat, source size/TIM joint only difference

I have burned up early TTVs, I have never had an internal TIM joint separation, but I have sucked bonded TCs out of the groove while removing sinks (and pulled sockets off the board !)
the IHS succeptability to internal detachment depends on the TIM material, an AMD problem I believe (could be wrong, eh)

BTW, IF IHS detachment is an AMD issue, wth is all this Intel TTV crap with no known instances of a TTV debonding ?
'what if' is such fun
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Unread 11-22-2005, 09:37 AM   #209
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let me add something to the CPU IHS grooving discussion:
the IHS measurement in conjunction with the 'internal' CPU temp (any source), plus the bogus Watts, can establish a ref C/W for the internal TIM joint,
its degradation can then be tracked (no help if an initially 'poor' TIM joint though)

would work for any CPU with an IHS,
but I still would not use an AMD CPU (unless bare, which testing I do not do)

note that I initially drilled all wb bps, I have measured a lot of TIM joints and I distrust them as much as Cathar; huge sources of variability in every installation
and if degradation of the internal TIM joint is occurring, . . .
what is the point ?
cheaper I guess, if OCing is a hobby then CPUs are consumables

this last point leads to another conclusion:
if an enthauast uses an AMD CPU, it should ALWAYS be bare (else the performance 'advantage' is illusory)
??
(another made this same observation several pages ago)

Last edited by BillA; 11-22-2005 at 09:52 AM.
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Unread 11-22-2005, 10:05 AM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered

Scott
I accept that your questions are genuine; each model improves on that before
if the tool were so flawed, do you not think that a better one would be developed ?
you are assisting in the 'condemnation' of a test method about which you, and clearly Cathar, have no experience and little real info
I am unable to do other than share my experience in a general manner

it is rather strange that the only 'info' accepted w/o question is from Cathar, who has ok testing (we accept) but no hard data sets at all
yet those who do provide data are subjected to claims of bias, stupidity, incompetence, etc
No Bill, I do not claim stupidity or incompetence at all. All I am questioning is the TTV and its reported data, not the integrity of the people doing the testing with it, let's get that clear. I can appreciate those detailed things which you can not discuss. I am also very happy that this discussion has stayed somewhat civil, as I have said before there is no witch hunt here, we just want anwsers as does everyone else. Bill, if you can answer good, if not I understand; were any of the TTV's that were used socket 775 with the newish IHS as opposed to the old brick style IHS?
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Unread 11-22-2005, 10:13 AM   #211
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RE the IHS with AMD vs. Intel; Intel used to have poor IHS to core mating, back in the Northwood days. I experienced a 2.6 which after removing the IHS I lost 9C, with 3 other Northy's that I popped the lid I lost about 3C. Intel today has a MUCH better way of bonding the IHS to the core and it is virtually impossible to remove the IHS from an Intel CPU today. I fear from what I am hearing that AMD has garbage IHS to core bond, until they fix this issue it would be best to pop the lid, this I am sure of.
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Unread 11-22-2005, 10:22 AM   #212
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current and applicable, if not defensible would not be used (goddammit Scott, you know me)
there is a 'bad' data set, the causes of which are speculative as some crucial facts/conditions are not known
but there are many good sets of data, both before and after the 'bad' set was generated

the TTV data is also generally confirmed by their CPU based testing

this is an amazing rush to prejudgment, nay outright condemnation, by an authority in the field
but I could be the fool instead:
Cathar has had a MCW55 for a number of months,
could it be that he DID test it and knows for a fact that the Apogee (derived from the MCW55) cannot possibly equal the Storm ??

the plot thickens
Cathar, did you test the MCW55 ?
anything you wish to share ?
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Unread 11-22-2005, 10:50 AM   #213
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Bah I got locked out of forums and couldn't reply earlier. I (lol?) forgot my password.

Anyway my rationale for sticking with AMD CPUs for testing is due to the diode being accessible for my data acquisition. Motherboard readings are both coarse and unreliable and that's a bad combo.

But while playing with my hacked up AMD64 I quickly noticed something that probably plagues all modern CPU users: the damn things pop out of the sockets when you try to unmount coolers! This bends pins, this can mess with my wiring, and this probably affects the TIM interface as well over time. It also gives me pause before spending a lot of time getting test numbers (imagine if I have to start over with a new CPU every couple weeks!).

If I were to "pop the top" on my test box then this would be the reason why.
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Unread 11-22-2005, 10:52 AM   #214
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And to be fair, questions regarding the TTV started to surface LONG before the Apogee block, want to make that clear. As per Bill's testing (I think) the MCW55 just about matches the Storm as per Swiftech's data. A post by Les went largely ignored in the beginning of Sept. as seen HERE .
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Unread 11-22-2005, 10:58 AM   #215
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I hesitate to suggest such heresy, but are no Intel CPUs candidates for OCing ?
focusing on the overclockability capability of the sink (yes I understand that there is compression/loss of 'sensitivity'), but even so ?

if you go with AMD do consider popping the top just for consistency
- just like resurfacing a heat die, need to add this devil to the mix too
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Unread 11-22-2005, 11:03 AM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
I hesitate to suggest such heresy, but are no Intel CPUs candidates for OCing ?
Hehe Bill, I run my P4 at 4530Mhz every day, 24/7 at load too folding. Here is what it will do with my plain'ol water setup lol.

Validated: http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=19923
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File Type: png 5ghz.png (18.5 KB, 22 views)
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Unread 11-22-2005, 11:09 AM   #217
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lol
so can we save ourselves some grief and, for durability, use an Intel CPU to characterize CPU/sink performance when an IHS is used ?
(AMD data would be equal or worse depending on the TIM joint - lord that must tickoff someone loving AMD)
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Unread 11-22-2005, 11:18 AM   #218
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Yes for IHS based CPU's Intel is where it is at in terms of IHS to core integrity IMO. Also, the NEWER IHS are far better than the old IMO.

New style


Old
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Unread 11-22-2005, 11:21 AM   #219
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And AMDs current IHS is similar to old style intel as shown above - more or less identical tbh. Whereas Intel's NEW IHS is very similar to earlier AMD CPUs... K6-450 era...



altho obvious refinements due to die shrinkage.
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Unread 11-22-2005, 11:25 AM   #220
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ok, groove it to the exact center to take no more than a 40ga TC (smallest from Omega sets the size)
think about the TC tip and getting the IHS top surface temp

hope Lee or pH wants to do this, it would address the larger portion even of the enthauast users and 100% of the more casual owners who upgrade

err, not the AMD one
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Unread 11-22-2005, 11:28 AM   #221
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Wow that looks good there Marci, didnt realize they switched. Now, can that lid be easily popped? Or have they gone to solder/epoxy as intel has? FWIW, I tried to get a soldered/epoxy'd ihs off of an Intel cpu, to no success. I stuck in in a 400 degree oven for an hour, froze it overnight, soaked it in googone, nothing worked. Believe it or not, the CPU still runs to this day.
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Unread 11-22-2005, 11:57 AM   #222
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This whole IHS removal should just be excluded from the minds of testers. Until now, waterblocks that were tested were tested against "stock" cpu's. No modifications required.

Now... all of a sudden a company creates a WB specifically to address the new/larger heating surface... and testers think that it should be discounted because "real enthusiasts" pop off the IHS? Ridiculous.

I've been overclocking since 1996. If I'm not an enthusiast... I don't know who is. Yet I REFUSE to take a knife to my $600 X2 4400+ processor. It ISN'T going to happen, and I am quite sure I am not alone here.

Why would you risk your investment, when you may be able to accomplish the same cooling with a different waterblock? Not saying either way which block accomplishes this, but that is the claim.

I want the block that can cool my $6-800 processor as it is sold, so if I need to RMA it... I don't have to get out the epoxy and try to rip someone off.
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Unread 11-22-2005, 12:00 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orkan

Now... all of a sudden a company creates a WB specifically to address the new/larger heating surface... and testers think that it should be discounted because "real enthusiasts" pop off the IHS? Ridiculous.
No, I suggest you go read the thread, this is NOT about popping IHS's. The AMD ihs to core integrity is SHIT, no two ways about it. And, you obviously have not been reading or you would KNOW that Intel IHS's are almost impossible to take off
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Unread 11-22-2005, 12:12 PM   #224
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I have read the thread, but seemingly mis-interpreted.

I fail to see the correlation between the AMD->core joint, and the performance of a waterblock.

If you take the same CPU, with its borked IHS... and test two waterblocks... the amount of heat given off by the cpu does not change. The IHS interface remains constant... whether it is borked or not.

ie: the amount of heat a waterblock can remove from said cpu... does not change based on how well the IHS is bolted on.

WB performance vs IHS problems?
I don't see how the two relate. I understand that it makes getting an accurate temp reading more difficult, but I don't see how it relates to the performance of the block.

Exact same heat source, two different blocks. I do not understand how the heat source being screwed up in some way affects the WB's ability to remove the heat.
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Unread 11-22-2005, 12:13 PM   #225
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"Until now, waterblocks that were tested were tested against "stock" cpu's."
not
only those not having or making a heat die, many have made heat dies (not only me)
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