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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 10-21-2002, 12:26 AM   #51
Brad
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damnit - don't remove the girls!!!!

seriously though, those graphs killed my load time
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Unread 10-21-2002, 07:31 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brad
damnit - don't remove the girls!!!!

Yeah, like I said, get rid of those g/d colored lines an bars!
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Unread 10-21-2002, 08:30 AM   #53
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Quote:
The following curves show the actual flow rate from each pump through various lengths of 1/2" ID tubing.
Wow!, I'd have thought it would be a much less drop than that!, I thought six foot would'nt have made a difference to my 1250, I'd like to see a 3/8 and a 5/8 tube size comparison as well.
Also I'd like to see a graph of head/W~column after 1 to 10 foot of tube,(3/8,1/2 & 5/8), to see how much pressure we're losing (thats before the block & rad! ).

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Unread 10-22-2002, 08:41 PM   #54
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And now I can officially throw something in from experience.

The Maxi-Jet 1200 flows like a mofo and is quiet too! But I think I'll try to find a heatsink to fit it though, cause it does get warm.
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Unread 10-22-2002, 10:21 PM   #55
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aaaaarggg damn..... just as I thought I got the thermodynamics all figured out... someone comes along, and re-invent it all, completely not they way I got it.....



so 12v^2, am I getting this right?..... you mean to say the water need to be very much near stagnant inside the block, for it to have enough time to absorb the heat.... ok now...
entertain me for a bit here....

Q:
When is the most heat per time interval going to be moved?

A:
Right at the very first instant the cool water gets into the block.

Reason: (R)

Delta T is at it's max.


Now lets move on to the next instant in time..... 0.000000000091 Nano seconds later.....

Q:
is the heat transfer going to increase or decrease......

A:
decrease...

R:
Delta T is no longer what it was, because the water got some action......


Ok lets move on to the next moment in time....

Q:
The same thing as the previous Q

A:
You guessed it.......

R:
Yes Delta T is leaving the building.....


etc.... etc..... etc.....


in the mean time, up a tube not to far away.... there is a hole new load of fresh cool water, waiting it's turn to get all stagnant in the block.... but there is no movement in the system... and things are getting all hot and bothered where it counts.....


then in a galaxy up in the sky there are words whispered about a thing called Turbulence........



my take on things.... optimize internals to maximize Turbulence.... all other things will miraculously fall into place.

My Motto.. Flow-rate measured, if Flow-rate wasted...
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Unread 10-22-2002, 11:10 PM   #56
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Just found a pump that might be great!!! I'm trying to get one and will post results when I get one.

SPECS:

320 GPH (1200lph) max flow or 5+ gpm (20 lpm)

33 feet max head (10m) has 2.5gpm @ 28 ft head

45 watts

4.4x4.7x4.3 inches in size

Only problem is that it's 24vdc.

What do you think? Will it perform?
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Unread 10-26-2002, 03:11 AM   #57
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How do pump manufactureres determin head?, I mean do they measure it 'in tube' if so which size?, different sizes would make a difference to the flow rate at various heads would'nt it?...
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Unread 10-26-2002, 10:58 AM   #58
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Geesh, I was not intending to say that the water needs to be near stagnet or barely flowing at all, I was saying that with a heat transfer from the metal to the water there IS a time period that the water takes to absorb the heat from the static source and then there is an idea flowrate at which the water is absorbing to it's maximum capacity and then hopefully being carried off around that point to a cooling medium (heater core). For instance. Take a piece of ice, run it down you're arm really fast several times. Then try taking another piece and running it down your arm much slower, but not slow enough to let it all melt before doing it a couple times and before you reach the end of your arm. And tell me which is going to end up making your arm colder?

There IS a certain point in which flowrate becomes less efficient and I was only saying that with super "~1000GPH+" the pumps people were talking about, they wouldn't be helping much more than the smaller, less GPH producing pumps... which don't add as much heat into the system either.
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Unread 10-26-2002, 11:20 AM   #59
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The flow rate changes from radiator to radiator. Such as back when I first got into watercooling, I used a tranny cooler, it has a low resistance since its an open tube design.

But heatercores are more restrictive and require more pressure behind them to get the water through and keep it at a decent GPH.

Back in the tranny cooler days...everyone thought that 100GPH was enough. I wouldn't have even considered anything over 150GPH(my pump was 145 in fact). But since someone discovered cars have a few other radiators, they pulled the heater core, hooked it up, and noticed the pressure drop was quite high in comparison to the tranny cooler.
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Unread 10-26-2002, 04:04 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadDogMe
How do pump manufactureres determin head?, I mean do they measure it 'in tube' if so which size?, different sizes would make a difference to the flow rate at various heads would'nt it?...
I'm not sure how they do it, but the tubing size used wouldn't matter so long as they included its resistance to the measured vertical lift for the test. Determining the max lift is easy, as the tubing size doesn't matter at all.
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Unread 10-26-2002, 04:59 PM   #61
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[flame]

V12/V12, you are wasting our time with this. I don't like to sound like an @ss, but you, sir, need to be put in your place. Your ice cube example is crap in this case since in a watercooling setup you would be running a row of them down your arm. The temp differential is a key part of thermal transfer. The longer the water is in the block the more heat it will absorb until it hits an equilibrium, but what you are neglecting is that if you are constantly shuffling the barely warmed water out at a quick rate while pulling in fresh cold water you will transfer more net heat. For someone who is mocking the collective intelligence of the members of this forum, you should learn to spell for starters, and then learn to think before you start spouting inane crap, and realize that experience has a place alongside theory.

This is a strange rant, coming from somebody that likes to smash practical theory against the rocks in favor of technical theory, but in this case, you demonstrate no respect for experience while simultaneously demonstrating little to no understanding of the theories you are trollishly throwing about.

Granted, in 1000+GPH setups you will need to find a way to cool the pump (the real thermal difference here, btw, since it is most likely running at a higher W and releasing more heat into both the coolant and surrounding environment) on top of the heat load from the components you're cooling. But, if there was no other difference between the heat of a lower flow pump like a ViaAqua 1300 and a psycho high NPU2400 that pumps 1200GPH at 12ft, you would find that that NPU2400 would outcool the ViaAqua pump every time. You are looking at the individual slug of water when you should be looking at the entire system in motion. Granted, less heat would be absorbed by a single slug of water and in turn less would be removed from that slug in the radiator, but since the whole system is moving faster, the process will be finished much faster returning that freshly cooled slug of water back into the loop. There are diminishing returns at a point in the process, but for the most part (excluding the 10000000 gph pump you mentioned, though I'm trying to find one to cool my northbridge through a waterjacket I made out of cheetos and krazy glue), in our practical use, the more flow through your system, the better temps you'll get if you have adequate cooling for your pump. It's the difference between simple math and calculus, guy. You, sir, need to go back to school and pay attention this time before flaming people that know what they're talking about rather than sleeping through Advanced Pottery Design ART324 and thinking that they are a grandmaster in thermodynamics. Heh ... examples that don't apply ... what a gas considering your pathetic and short-sighted ice cube example.

At any rate, I would like to throw props to the NurseryPro pump line. They are some extremely powerful pumps that run virtually silent (the only sound out of my NPU500 was vibration related ... they vibrate like a mofo so you really have to take precautions) and they're mag-drive. They are a bit pricey, ranging from $80 for a 500 gallon model to about $250 for the 2400 gallon model, but they are definitely a pump that doesn't under-perform the specs. Plus, the 500 gallon model wasn't all that large ... if the rubber gasket around it was removed, it was about the same size as the ViaAqua.

[/flame]
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Unread 10-27-2002, 03:14 PM   #62
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I have been placed... (PS-Might want to note the lack of grammar/spelling check, wouldn't want you to NOT get my point. Have a nice day.)

Unfortunately it had to come to this: I will add that (off the subject of cooling) you sir, Airspirit, do fall into the typical forum catagory as a bitch (I would say ass, but you have demonstrated levels of offense far above the label.), that shows no apparent tact at all. My spelling? Oh no, I didn't grammar check the whole post in fear that someone might not be intelligent enough to get the meaning and would need perfect spelling to get the gist...

Putting me in "my place" and taking personal shots at one's witt or intelligence is just pure childish and tactless. Does it have much weight with you laying it all out to me and about how I am apparently "all wrong?" Not at all, just simple tactics used to degrade a person, while unskillfully making an even more general bitch out of yourself. Next time, if you want to make it personal, which you have succeeded at doing, you can send me a private message, but I don't think anyone else cares about your unmature opinion of me... Show a little CLASS next time, for others read, admire and sight your/other's knowledge, lead by example... taking personal shots at me or anyone else that "gets it wrong" and makes mistakes (humanity check), isn't helping anyone but your own inflated ego. Show some restraint before passing personal judgement, for I can take being shown I was wrong, but name calling doesn't make your point any more valuable... Ciao... V12 0 | Airspirit 0
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Unread 10-27-2002, 03:20 PM   #63
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It doesn't help that in some of the previous post, you come off with an arrogant attitude about your "information" and such. As the post about no need for high GPH pumps sure did sound like you were calling everyone fools for using them.
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Unread 10-27-2002, 03:30 PM   #64
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Again, I sorry for coming off like that, there was NO offense intended, though now I can see by rereading I was sounding mighty jerkish... If I offended anyone, again, take this as a retract of the offense Good day sirs...
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Unread 10-28-2002, 07:10 PM   #65
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I'm thinking about a Iwaki MD or WMD-30RLT pump.

570 GPH @ 0' & 510 GPH @ 4' with a max head of 17.7' Note: A differant site showed flow as 480 GPH @ 5' for this same pump.

I've also been told that there is a MD-30RZT that would be even better that the above, but havn't found one yet to check out. Anyone know a site that has the RZT types?

Thanks to MadDog for his suggestions, and stearing me to find this.

Edit: I just found some more stats. The MD-20RLT is a 48 watt rate and the MD-30RLT is much more than I'd have guessed, 115 watts. Wouldn't the higher wattage of the 30 off set it's greater flow and pressure, at least to a high degree? Or would running from the pump to the rad take care of any added heat?

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Unread 10-28-2002, 07:44 PM   #66
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I never found a site that sells the RZT series of Iwaki pumps, but I did find a local distributor here in Toronto (Burlington) called Service Filtration that sells them... I had to e-mail the manufacturer to find them. Buying them retail is very expensive though... $222CAD for the 20RZT.
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Unread 10-28-2002, 09:41 PM   #67
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Slulemate,

I agree they all (Iwaki's) do seem expensive, but are said to be the best of all aquarium pumps.

Did ya buy one? Performance?
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Unread 10-28-2002, 10:04 PM   #68
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No, I've not bought one yet. I am the "proud" owner of a Little Giant 3-MD-SC... though it's a tad noisy for my taste, and it runs very hot. However, I'm hoping to buy the WMD-20RZT once my student loan documents come through (since I've already paid for school... got to love that government aid eh?)... all I have to do is "convince" myself that it's needed.

One thing though... I'm not sure that the Iwaki pumps were originally intended for aquarium use, though I agree that they seem perfectly matched to the job. The company in my area that sells them sells equipment for moving chemicals and stuff like that.
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Unread 10-28-2002, 11:12 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skulemate
No, I've not bought one yet. I am the "proud" owner of a Little Giant 3-MD-SC... though it's a tad noisy for my taste, and it runs very hot. However, I'm hoping to buy the WMD-20RZT once my student loan documents come through (since I've already paid for school... got to love that government aid eh?)... all I have to do is "convince" myself that it's needed.

One thing though... I'm not sure that the Iwaki pumps were originally intended for aquarium use, though I agree that they seem perfectly matched to the job. The company in my area that sells them sells equipment for moving chemicals and stuff like that.
Like you I agree they were not originally intended for aquarium use but I have been using them for years for just that along with lots of folks......and now for water cooling

Piece of advice though......dont get the WMD model.......The W denotes the american made motor and they are not as quiet as the MD models with the japanese motors.......I have owned several of both ranging from the 15's to the 70's in size and find that there is quite a difference in the quality and the quietness between the WMD and the MD models.......
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Unread 10-30-2002, 02:40 AM   #70
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Quote:
I'm not sure how they do it, but the tubing size used wouldn't matter so long as they included its resistance to the measured vertical lift for the test. Determining the max lift is easy, as the tubing size doesn't matter at all
Shaft, That would work out if they measured in PSI would'nt it?, but in feet?, the weight of water would be different would'nt it?...

PS. how much is a Ehiem1250 in Cad$?...
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Unread 10-30-2002, 09:08 AM   #71
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But MadDogMe, psi and feet of head are measuring the same thing... you can convert from feet of head to psi by multiplying by the unit weight of water (62.3 lbf/ft^3) and dividing by 144 (in^2/ft^2).

As for the Eheim, I haven't priced one recently, but if memory serves it was around $120CAD when I was pricing pumps a few months ago.
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Unread 10-30-2002, 09:49 AM   #72
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A certain pump could lift water in a 1 inch tube to 10 feet, but the same pump with a 12inch tube would'nt pump to ten feet would it?, this is my dilema with head/feet :shrug: ...

Quote:
psi and feet of head are measuring the same thing...
A mile and a kilometre are measuring the same thing, they're not the same though, for one to be converted into the other you have to have two known standards, yes/no?
So danner and Eheim must use the same diametre?, there must be a standard size?, or am I way off base? ...

I'd just like to know what I'm knowing if you know what I mean..., uh?...


PS, I'd pay double the price I paid for my 1250 any day of the week! for the right Iwaki, it's just figuring which pump is right or overkill, good advice on the US/Nippon makes, I'd heard that before but forgotten[doh!]...

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Unread 10-30-2002, 09:59 AM   #73
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Sure it would... it will take longer, but it will work (good luck finding the 12" tube x 1/2" NPT though ). Remember, pressure is related to the depth below a fluid's surface if it's open to the atmosphere... there's no dependance on the size of the container. To take this to the extreme, if you put your pump into the bottom of a swimming pool, and supplied it water (through a fictional hose that didn't cause any loss of it's rated head) then you could eventually fill up the pool to a height that's equal to the maximum head of the pump... after that it'd shut off.

Quote:
A mile and a kilometre are measuring the same thing
Yes and no here... while they both are measuring distance, they're certainly not measuring the same thing... since a mile is around 1.6 klicks. Same with psi and feet of head (1 foot lift is approximately 0.43 psi).
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Unread 10-30-2002, 10:04 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadDogMe
PS, I'd pay double the price I paid for my 1250 any day of the week! for the right Iwaki, it's just figuring which pump is right or overkill, good advice on the US/Nippon makes, I'd heard that before but forgotten[doh!]...
Considering that the Eheim is $120CAD and the right Iwaki is around $220 (MD-20-RZT) I'd say that's about right.
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Unread 10-30-2002, 10:10 AM   #75
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Realy?, I just find it hard to believe my eheim would fill a 7ft(is the max 7 on a 1250?) tube a foot wide with water!, I thought the weight would create to much backpressure. I'm not saying you're wrong you understand?!, there's just alot I don't know yet ...
[psst!, keep quiete about the 12in tube!, it's my secret weapon, now I just gotta find a jubillee clip to fit )

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