Go Back   Pro/Forums > ProCooling Technical Discussions > General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar JavaChat Mark Forums Read

General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 07-23-2002, 03:04 PM   #51
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Cova
Ok, IMHO this block should perform pretty damn well, if it can be built. The idea being to have really high flow, with enough surface area coming off the CPU core to transmit heat away from the core fast, and yet as little copper as possible between the core and the water, so that the temp delta is as low as possible. Think along the lines of Volenti's dual-block and you should get the idea of what I'm thinking. Except with just one inlet/outlet (the larger diameter the better, as much flow as possible) to keep it simple.

Then again, I have no idea how you'd ever machine something like this out of the copper base.
I like it.

The fins definitely don't need to be that big, of course!

It would have to be assembled, possibly brazed, it really can't be machined. It could be built as-is, but with a clear top, and barbs on either side, and lights, and...
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-23-2002, 03:48 PM   #52
myv65
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: home
Posts: 365
Default

Actually, I think it's pretty comical. I asked a while back at another forum if anyone had enclosed an SK6 with a water jacket. Someone actually had, but not in the manner I would have preferred. As noted, you would want flow moving parallel with the fins and this design didn't really address that.

Because of the differences between air and water, the fins of such a block for water use should be comparatively shorter and thicker than for use with water. It still comes back to balancing flow loss and velocity, conduction through the metal, surface area for the water, etc., etc.

Reference here.

Last edited by myv65; 07-23-2002 at 03:51 PM.
myv65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-23-2002, 04:00 PM   #53
Cova
Cooling Savant
 
Cova's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 247
Default

I think there is a pretty important difference between that attempt myv65, and my idea - on the one you linked to the space directly over the CPU is empty - where the heatsink clip would normally be. In my proposed one, that is where all fins start from. I've tried to optimize the points I think are most important with it, and I can't come up with anything better...

1. As little copper as possible between the water and the core
2. As much surface area as possible between the copper and the water
3. Good copper paths to conduct heat quickly away from the core - without insulating the core in a mass of copper.
4. As little resistance to water-flow as possible

With air cooling the heat spreads throughout the heatsink very fast compared to how much heat is dissipated into the air. With water-cooling, as long as fresh cool water is in supply we don't need that much heatsink material to spread it out.

I almost think the best waterblock would be the one that is perfectly straight, with no regard for surface area - just put maximum flow-rate over a piece of copper virtually hair-thin to keep the CPU dry (as close as you can get to just putting water on the core itself) - but after reading of a few attempts at water right on the core, I think it works better with some type of metal heat spreader.
Cova is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-23-2002, 04:32 PM   #54
myv65
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: home
Posts: 365
Default

Cova,

Yeah, I like your idea better. That SK6 mod I linked was not mine and not done in the way I would like. I would be interested in hearing how yours turns out if you give it a go.
myv65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-23-2002, 04:33 PM   #55
Cova
Cooling Savant
 
Cova's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 247
Default

Afraid I don't have the tools or materials to even attempt building such a thing. Perhaps Volenti will try something like this inside his dual-block and we'll get an idea how it works.
Cova is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-23-2002, 09:38 PM   #56
Volenti
Cooling Savant
 
Volenti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: in a nice cool spot
Posts: 427
Default

Quote:
Afraid I don't have the tools or materials to even attempt building such a thing. Perhaps Volenti will try something like this inside his dual-block and we'll get an idea how it works.
Yea that is the reason why I made that block the way I did, but I'm having trouble sourcing a suitable small copper heatsink that I can "imbed" in the block and push a stupid amount of water through.

I've looked closley at that zalman cooler several times. I may try to make something based on a similar principle but with thicker fins, probably 1mm or a bit thicker depending on what copper stock I can dig up, Cova must have been reading my mind when he drew that picture, since that's almost exactly how I'd like to make it.

I also fully agree with Cova's 4 principles, we'll see if I can fullfill them with the next block revision...
__________________
feel free to icq/msn me, I'm always willing to toss around ideas.

Last edited by Volenti; 07-23-2002 at 09:43 PM.
Volenti is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2002, 03:10 AM   #57
Brad
Thermophile
 
Brad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Nuu Zeeelin
Posts: 3,176
Default

I've always had the idea of something like that in the back of my mind. Zalman/Thermalright/Dynatron/Coolermaster and even more manufacturers would all be possible to use.

I own a Dynatron 60fin heatsink, what I would do would be something like what I've attached. It would be about 90mm x 60mm, the width is due to the twin 1/2" barbs. My main concern is leaking
__________________
2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans

2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water
Brad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2002, 03:17 AM   #58
Brad
Thermophile
 
Brad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Nuu Zeeelin
Posts: 3,176
Default

forgot the image
__________________
2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans

2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water
Brad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2002, 03:17 AM   #59
Brad
Thermophile
 
Brad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Nuu Zeeelin
Posts: 3,176
Default

forgot the image. It's a whole 4kb!
Attached Images
File Type: gif waterblock.gif (3.8 KB, 341 views)
__________________
2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans

2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water
Brad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2002, 05:04 AM   #60
morphling1
Cooling Savant
 
morphling1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Slovenia
Posts: 468
Default

Thanks for tips Fixitt and Sanjuro. (why, oh why, do you still use imperial instead of metric system )
bigben2k, I'm not using aluminium, for outer block, I'll use plexy, with cone soldered to copper base but on curcumference not the bottom, the bottom of the cone will be in direct contact with cpu die. First results this weekend, if I get some time to make plexy blocks this friday.
morphling1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2002, 12:24 PM   #61
007
Cooling Neophyte
 
007's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 31
Default

The WC company i've worked for, used blocks that looked like this inside:
Very effective design! Inlet in one end, and outlet in the other, no mazes, spirals and stuff, just a HUGE surface area.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg cwas1_corugation.jpg (8.2 KB, 393 views)
__________________
AMD XP1700@2400MHz (1.925Vcore (11x200),
1.5GB DDR3200, Epox 8RDA3+, Seagate Barracuda IV 80GB, Seagate 7200.2 120GB, Seagate 7200.2 160GB, WW ClearTop (CPU) Twinplex GF4 (GPU) w/ 2x120mm on heatercore from Accord '92 and Eheim 1048.
To be further upgraded! (RAID 5, HD/PSU/NB cooling etc.)
007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2002, 12:43 PM   #62
utabintarbo
Cooling Savant
 
utabintarbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sterling Hts., MI
Posts: 496
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by 007

Very effective design! Inlet in one end, and outlet in the other, no mazes, spirals and stuff, just a HUGE surface area.
How is all that stuff attached to the block? Can't tell from the pic.

Bob
__________________
Sarcasm is yet another of the free services we offer!
utabintarbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2002, 02:19 PM   #63
007
Cooling Neophyte
 
007's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 31

As I remember it, it was soldered with silversolder (or whatever it is called in english - anyway, the heattransfer between the fins and the baseplate was equal or better that pure copper, because of the silversolder (or whatever it's called
More pics attached for the interested:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg acdc waterblock sideview.jpg (21.3 KB, 387 views)
__________________
AMD XP1700@2400MHz (1.925Vcore (11x200),
1.5GB DDR3200, Epox 8RDA3+, Seagate Barracuda IV 80GB, Seagate 7200.2 120GB, Seagate 7200.2 160GB, WW ClearTop (CPU) Twinplex GF4 (GPU) w/ 2x120mm on heatercore from Accord '92 and Eheim 1048.
To be further upgraded! (RAID 5, HD/PSU/NB cooling etc.)
007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2002, 02:20 PM   #64
007
Cooling Neophyte
 
007's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 31
Default

Front view:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg acdc waterblock sfrontview.jpg (28.3 KB, 386 views)
__________________
AMD XP1700@2400MHz (1.925Vcore (11x200),
1.5GB DDR3200, Epox 8RDA3+, Seagate Barracuda IV 80GB, Seagate 7200.2 120GB, Seagate 7200.2 160GB, WW ClearTop (CPU) Twinplex GF4 (GPU) w/ 2x120mm on heatercore from Accord '92 and Eheim 1048.
To be further upgraded! (RAID 5, HD/PSU/NB cooling etc.)
007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2002, 02:42 PM   #65
decodeddiesel
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: classified
Posts: 535
Default

very cool stuff in this thread, myv65 explination of thermal properties of Cu and Al was fantastic. I hope you are teaching thermodynamics somewhere, cause that was one of the best deffinitions I have seen.
__________________
...i hurt...
do me a favor, disconect me...
they can re-work me
but i'll never be top of the line again
...i'd rather be nothing...
decodeddiesel is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2002, 06:36 PM   #66
#Rotor
Cooling Savant
 
#Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dione, sector 4s1256
Posts: 852
Default

my own TOP-NOTCH-BLOCK....

If I may



is my tested and trusted way to get the best heat transfer possible with minimal effort and machinery ... It also incorporates VDFC technology.
__________________
There is no Spoon....
#Rotor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2002, 06:43 PM   #67
myv65
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: home
Posts: 365
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by decodeddiesel
very cool stuff in this thread, myv65 explination of thermal properties of Cu and Al was fantastic. I hope you are teaching thermodynamics somewhere, cause that was one of the best deffinitions I have seen.
I appreciate the vote of support. It's my wife that is the teacher, however (and Spanish at that). I manage an engineering department and limit my teaching to coworkers and visitors of forums such as this one and AMDMB.
myv65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2002, 04:34 AM   #68
Volenti
Cooling Savant
 
Volenti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: in a nice cool spot
Posts: 427
Default

Ok I've made up a central peice to insert into position in the water block where the core contacts, comments/opinions?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg watersink.jpg (41.8 KB, 354 views)
__________________
feel free to icq/msn me, I'm always willing to toss around ideas.
Volenti is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2002, 05:32 AM   #69
g.l.amour
Cooling Savant
 
g.l.amour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: on da case
Posts: 933
Default

dunno if this his anything to do with it, but this block just seems like utter crap. is about the same principle as some of u are trying. what is wrong with this block then:
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MzI5
g.l.amour is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2002, 06:41 AM   #70
Volenti
Cooling Savant
 
Volenti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: in a nice cool spot
Posts: 427
Default

Quote:
dunno if this his anything to do with it, but this block just seems like utter crap. is about the same principle as some of u are trying. what is wrong with this block then:
the designs poorly implemented and poorly manufactured, it's made of alloy instead of copper, has low flow with those small 3/8'' connectors, most of the water flow will by-pass the bottom of the block where it's needed, ect, it's just shit.

A cross-drilled alloy block would handily out perform it let alone a copper one.

Anyway, I and the other DIY'ers activley exprimenting with new designs already have either commercial or traditional style DIY blocks to compare to, if what we come up with performs worse than what we already have than we can figure out why it performs worse and modify the design accordingly.
__________________
feel free to icq/msn me, I'm always willing to toss around ideas.
Volenti is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2002, 10:24 AM   #71
Cova
Cooling Savant
 
Cova's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 247
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Volenti
Ok I've made up a central peice to insert into position in the water block where the core contacts, comments/opinions?
I'd file down/cut off some of that copper in the base of the fan part. Preferably so that the bottom two fins have about as much clearance over the WB base as there is space between the fans as you go around the fan.
Cova is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2002, 12:18 PM   #72
MeltMan
Cooling Savant
 
MeltMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: KS
Posts: 374
Default

How would you be able to successfully put the "fan" into a waterblock? It is soldered together, so if you solder it you risk letting those blades spread apart. It would be extremely hard to glue into some acrylic as well. At least a leak free glue... I really like the idea, i just cannot think of a good way to implement it.

\ \ / / <<-- What about a block like this? with water flowing into
\__/ the channel. You would only have 1 right angle, and maximum die contact.
__________________
MeltMan
Lurker Supreme!
MeltMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2002, 12:28 PM   #73
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

I think brazing might fix that.
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2002, 01:44 PM   #74
MeltMan
Cooling Savant
 
MeltMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: KS
Posts: 374
Default

You mean like melting the copper together with a real mans torch?
__________________
MeltMan
Lurker Supreme!
MeltMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2002, 01:59 PM   #75
Cova
Cooling Savant
 
Cova's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 247
Default

I think you'd have to solder it down - find some creative way to attach a clamp to the base of the fan part to hold it together, and just melt all the solder in the entire thing with a torch or something with it sitting on the WB base-plate. And I'm not sure how well solder conducts heat, so it should be as thin a layer as possible between the fan-thing and the base.
Cova is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(C) 2005 ProCooling.com
If we in some way offend you, insult you or your people, screw your mom, beat up your dad, or poop on your porch... we're sorry... we were probably really drunk...
Oh and dont steal our content bitches! Don't give us a reason to pee in your open car window this summer...