Johnson pump deal? - Page 4

Prlwytkovsky · 06-03-2003, 11:58 AM

For high frequency spikes a smaller capacitor is better. Big elco's have a series inductance that reduces the smoothing effect at high frequencies. A 100nF is a common value parallel to the big cap to catch the high freq. spikes.

bigben2k · 06-03-2003, 12:47 PM

My offer still stands: I'll cover shipping, if someone wants to send one of these pumps to Since87, so we can resolve this cap question once and for all.

koslov · 06-03-2003, 01:00 PM

Since I won't be finished with my new wb for a couple of weeks, I wouldn't mind sending mine out. Since87, PM me your address and I might be able to get it out today.

Would a few small heatsinks do anything to extend the life of the pump? Or do the brushes wear out simply from friction?

JCYC5 · 06-03-2003, 01:23 PM

Friction, I think...

Since87 · 06-03-2003, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by koslov
Since I won't be finished with my new wb for a couple of weeks, I wouldn't mind sending mine out. Since87, PM me your address and I might be able to get it out today.

Would a few small heatsinks do anything to extend the life of the pump? Or do the brushes wear out simply from friction?

I'll PM my address.

I don't think heatsinks will help preserve the brushes much either. Running the pump at lower voltage and reducing the RPM might help substantially though. I'd bet this pump would give good performance in a watercooling loop run at 8-10 Volts.

t00lb0x · 06-03-2003, 02:18 PM

I'll take it!

J/K. Why not hook it up to an aux powersupply?

nexxo · 06-03-2003, 02:18 PM

The manual states that operating voltage tollerance is about 20%, i.e. anything between 10V to 14V will work, but not lower or higher...

t00lb0x · 06-03-2003, 02:20 PM

Oh, it can run directly off the main PSU just fine then.

Since87 · 06-03-2003, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nexxo
The manual states that operating voltage tollerance is about 20%, i.e. anything between 10V to 14V will work, but not lower or higher...

It may take 10V to guarantee it starts, but I'll bet it would run fine at 8V. Wouldn't necessarily bet my computer on it though.

t00lb0x · 06-03-2003, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Since87
It may take 10V to guarantee it starts, but I'll bet it would run fine at 8V. Wouldn't necessarily bet my computer on it though.

When you get the pump you can test that theory out

bigben2k · 06-04-2003, 10:49 AM

I've got it running in the kitchen sink now.

It makes a small whirring sound, but it's very tolerable: nothing a little noise insulation can't fix. The rushing water makes more noise!

I'm gonna let it run for a bit, to see if it warms up. After 10 minutes, it warmed up a tiny bit.

edit: after a 45 minute run, I can confirm the 50 degC temp observed.

jaydee · 06-04-2003, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
I've got it running in the kitchen sink now.

It makes a small whirring sound, but it's very tolerable: nothing a little noise insulation can't fix. The rushing water makes more noise!

I'm gonna let it run for a bit, to see if it warms up. After 10 minutes, it warmed up a tiny bit.

Hook up a radiator or something to replicate an actual load. That will give a more accurate idea of the heat it puts off.

bigben2k · 06-04-2003, 11:27 AM

Now why didn't I think of that

I think the point is made.

I'm ready to pickup a second one

flyingass · 06-04-2003, 03:40 PM

Re: using smaller caps: i should have remembered that, since electrolytics tend to be bad at suppressing high-frequency noise.

I'm thinking that there'll be components of both RF ringing as well as larger, longer-lasting (milliseconds or so) spikes - so maybe a small ceramic or film cap (between .01 and 1uf) as well as a larger electrolytic (100+ uf) might be best for filtering noise. The diode certainly can't hurt either.

Since87, if you're going to be testing this on an oscilloscope, i think we'd all appreciate it if you captured waveforms with and without filter circuitry so we could see the difference. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally posted by nexxo
I'm starting to wonder whether there are several versions of the pump in question around... especially as mine, and the CM10P7-1 a.k.a. Jabsco, are described as "ball-bearing permanent magnetic drive". No brushes there.

No mention is made of capacitors, but it says to make sure the motor housing is connected to GND (say, the PC case) and to have a fuse in-line. 1.6 A for the CM10P7-1, and 3 A for the CM30P7-1.

Nope, i'd bet my pump

that it's brushed. it still has permanent magnets in it - but in order for a motor to operate off of DC, it's either going to have brushes or have some driving circuitry (which is what you find in brushless fans) that would have to have some subststantial heat sinking in order to run a pump of this size.

The reason the manual doesn't mention capacitors is because marine/car electrical systems don't tend to have extremely noise-sensitive equipment attached without some sort of power regulation or filter circuitry in place.

and one last time for any n00bs reading:
brown wire is negative, blue positive.
so on a molex, brown goes to black, blue to yellow.

Since87 · 06-04-2003, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyingass

Since87, if you're going to be testing this on an oscilloscope, i think we'd all appreciate it if you captured waveforms with and without filter circuitry so we could see the difference. Thanks.

Awww. I was going to show you all a nice clean waveform, and tell you that the only way get that clean waveform is to buy a gilberdefloop. (I'm the only manufacturer of gilberdefloops, and they cost $15 each.)

Seriously, yes, I will show before and after waveforms.

bigben2k · 06-04-2003, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by trit187
I just got my pump in the mail, I'll post pics if anyone wants (but not before friday) it has two wires, brown and blue, how do I connect it to my psu?

If you look real close, the brown wire has a little white plastic ring on it, with a "ground" symbol. The blue wire goes to +12 (aka yellow).

As flyinglass mentionned...

nexxo · 06-04-2003, 05:24 PM

That is bizarre. The convention is: brown is +, blue is GND. Go figure...

Anyway, my CM30 pump has a red (+) and black (GND) wire.

Regarding the fuse: I was intending to use a 3 amp blade fuse (like you get in cars). Easy to fit (you can screw the socket to any part of the case), small, convenient...

Stepback · 06-04-2003, 10:19 PM

Well, My jabsco just started making noise today. I just order this pump to replace it. It last over a year in constant use. I'll take pics of the jabsco apart when I get the new installed. And then will see what the brushes look like.

Turbokeu · 06-05-2003, 01:07 AM

WOOT!
Just ordered two of these babies...
Mailed to Chris Cole at Surplus Center about the 4910.30$ shipment costs (

)...
Shipment costs are now calculated to 17.50$ by airmail to Belgium and a delivery delay of about one week.

Edit: Final shipping costs according to Surplus Center is 22.45$
Oh what the heck, I can't wait to receive those puppies and play with them...

BTW, on Johnson-pumps's website they state that the CM-pumps are magnetically driven and the CO-pumps have a mechanical seal between motor and pump, so they should be direct driven.
What do you think about the durability of this seal?

And yes, I definately would put the two caps and a diode between pump and PSU.
I will even try some of those AC RF filters (I have some lying around) and record with an oscilloscope.

CD

bigben2k · 06-05-2003, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Turbokeu
...
BTW, on Johnson-pumps's website they state that the CM-pumps are magnetically driven and the CO-pumps have a mechanical seal between motor and pump, so they should be direct driven.
What do you think about the durability of this seal?

And yes, I definately would put the two caps and a diode between pump and PSU.
I will even try some of those AC RF filters (I have some lying around) and record with an oscilloscope.

CD

(I get a kick out of your avatar!)

The CO pumps have a mechanical seal, to seal the shaft from the housing. I don't think it has anything to do with wether or not they're mag drive plus, as flyingass already stated, he took it apart and found brushes.

What he didn't mention though, is if the shaft drives the impeller directly.

I'll throw out a suggestion, maybe stupid, to try to extend the life of the brushes: maybe we can come up with something practical?: spray the rotor's contact area with a silicone lubricant. (never mind the procedure for now).

bigben2k · 06-05-2003, 02:04 PM

Ok, I sent $4.50 to Koslov, to cover the shipping, to send the pump to Since87, so that we can gauge the caps right. Since87: let me know the return cost.

In the mean time, here's an interesting tid bit on RC electrical motor brushes. Not applicable for our use, but interesting nonetheless:
http://www.aggressiverctech.com/Motorbrush.htm

satanicoo · 06-05-2003, 02:48 PM

cant this be solved by using a second PSU?

And are the brushes of the pump replaçable?

bigben2k · 06-05-2003, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by satanicoo
cant this be solved by using a second PSU?

And are the brushes of the pump replaçable?

If you want to cram a 2nd PSU, go right ahead! (I'm cramming three

)

Otherwise, the brushes aren't meant to be replaced, but I suppose it's not impossible to do that.

satanicoo · 06-05-2003, 03:02 PM

I dunno about three, but im sure i can get 2 PSU's on a single PSU box

Must try that one day.

Turbokeu · 06-05-2003, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k

The CO pumps have a mechanical seal, to seal the shaft from the housing. I don't think it has anything to do with wether or not they're mag drive plus, as flyingass already stated, he took it apart and found brushes.

What he didn't mention though, is if the shaft drives the impeller directly.

Yes, it has ALL to do with it.
Mag drive means that the movement of the motor is transferred to the pump impeller by means of magnets, one on the motor rotor and one on the impeller, as in the CM-series.
Sometimes the motor rotor = the impeller magnet, like in the Eheims or other mag drive pumps. There's no physical connection between motor rotor and pumpimpeller.
In case of the CO-series pumps, the shaft of the motor and the shaft of the impellor is the same shaft, and seal is assured by a mechanical isolation joint (= direct driven).

In case of mag drive, it doesn't matter if the motor has brushes, is brushless, or even if the motor is a combustion motor with gasoil...

Sorry if my english seems a little weird...

, it's only my third language (beneath Dutch & French).

CD

06-03-2003, 12:47 PM	#77
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	My offer still stands: I'll cover shipping, if someone wants to send one of these pumps to Since87, so we can resolve this cap question once and for all. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-03-2003, 02:18 PM	#81
t00lb0x Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: In a box Posts: 221	I'll take it! J/K. Why not hook it up to an aux powersupply? __________________ "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit"

06-03-2003, 02:18 PM	#82
nexxo Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brimingham, UK Posts: 385	The manual states that operating voltage tollerance is about 20%, i.e. anything between 10V to 14V will work, but not lower or higher... __________________ "There is a thin line between magic and madness"

06-03-2003, 02:20 PM	#83
t00lb0x Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: In a box Posts: 221	Oh, it can run directly off the main PSU just fine then. __________________ "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit"

06-04-2003, 10:49 AM	#86
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I've got it running in the kitchen sink now. It makes a small whirring sound, but it's very tolerable: nothing a little noise insulation can't fix. The rushing water makes more noise! I'm gonna let it run for a bit, to see if it warms up. After 10 minutes, it warmed up a tiny bit. edit: after a 45 minute run, I can confirm the 50 degC temp observed. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101 Last edited by bigben2k; 06-04-2003 at 11:25 AM.

06-03-2003, 11:58 AM	#76
Prlwytkovsky Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Washington DC Posts: 28	For high frequency spikes a smaller capacitor is better. Big elco's have a series inductance that reduces the smoothing effect at high frequencies. A 100nF is a common value parallel to the big cap to catch the high freq. spikes.

06-03-2003, 01:00 PM	#78
koslov Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Posts: 264	Since I won't be finished with my new wb for a couple of weeks, I wouldn't mind sending mine out. Since87, PM me your address and I might be able to get it out today. Would a few small heatsinks do anything to extend the life of the pump? Or do the brushes wear out simply from friction?

06-03-2003, 01:23 PM	#79
JCYC5 Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 102	Friction, I think...

06-04-2003, 11:27 AM	#88
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Now why didn't I think of that I think the point is made. I'm ready to pickup a second one __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-04-2003, 05:24 PM	#92
nexxo Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brimingham, UK Posts: 385	That is bizarre. The convention is: brown is +, blue is GND. Go figure... Anyway, my CM30 pump has a red (+) and black (GND) wire. Regarding the fuse: I was intending to use a 3 amp blade fuse (like you get in cars). Easy to fit (you can screw the socket to any part of the case), small, convenient... __________________ "There is a thin line between magic and madness"

06-04-2003, 10:19 PM	#93
Stepback Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Houston Texas Posts: 52	Well, My jabsco just started making noise today. I just order this pump to replace it. It last over a year in constant use. I'll take pics of the jabsco apart when I get the new installed. And then will see what the brushes look like. __________________ Stepback Maintaining today for a better tommorrow.

06-05-2003, 01:07 AM	#94
Turbokeu Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2001 Location: Brussels - Belgium Posts: 232	WOOT! Just ordered two of these babies... Mailed to Chris Cole at Surplus Center about the 4910.30$ shipment costs ( )... Shipment costs are now calculated to 17.50$ by airmail to Belgium and a delivery delay of about one week. Edit: Final shipping costs according to Surplus Center is 22.45$ Oh what the heck, I can't wait to receive those puppies and play with them... BTW, on Johnson-pumps's website they state that the CM-pumps are magnetically driven and the CO-pumps have a mechanical seal between motor and pump, so they should be direct driven. What do you think about the durability of this seal? And yes, I definately would put the two caps and a diode between pump and PSU. I will even try some of those AC RF filters (I have some lying around) and record with an oscilloscope. CD __________________ My website: http://www.turbokeu.com Backup website: http://www2.turbokeu.com My company: http://www.kdcs.be Last edited by Turbokeu; 06-07-2003 at 08:03 AM.

06-05-2003, 02:04 PM	#96
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Ok, I sent $4.50 to Koslov, to cover the shipping, to send the pump to Since87, so that we can gauge the caps right. Since87: let me know the return cost. In the mean time, here's an interesting tid bit on RC electrical motor brushes. Not applicable for our use, but interesting nonetheless: http://www.aggressiverctech.com/Motorbrush.htm __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-05-2003, 02:48 PM	#97
satanicoo Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: portugal Posts: 635	cant this be solved by using a second PSU? And are the brushes of the pump replaçable?

06-05-2003, 03:02 PM	#99
satanicoo Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: portugal Posts: 635	I dunno about three, but im sure i can get 2 PSU's on a single PSU box Must try that one day.

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