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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 06-05-2003, 03:37 PM   #101
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(pas de probleme, je comprends!)

I favor the direct drive theory, because if this pump can run on only 26 Watts, the motor is either awfully efficient, or it's a direct drive.

I also have a Little giant 2-MDQ-SC, which is a true mag drive, and although it'll outperform this Johnson pump by a little bit, it'll take 180 Watts to do it .

flyingass, can you tell us if the motor drives the impeller directly, or if there's a set of magnets to isolate the motor shaft from the impeller shaft?
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Unread 06-05-2003, 11:31 PM   #102
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yes, my c030p5-1 pump is unquestionably direct drive. attempting to turn the impeller and the motor shaft in opposite directions is....well, entirely futile.

regarding the mechanical seal: the manual recommends, if the pump is mounted horizontally, for the impeller end to be lower than the motor housing, presumably in case of a leak - at least that's the only reason i could think of for it to be mounted in such a way.

The manual does state that these are rated for continuous duty, but i can't find any mention of a MTBF.


the brushes, though, are definitely designed to last quite some time. unfortunately i can't have access to a digital camera or i'd take pictures. They consist of spring-loaded chunks of a fairly soft copper-colored metal, 3/8 inch long (1cm) with a square cross section of aobut 5mm. Rotor looks to be a purer, harder copper compound 1-1.5mm thick.

Once stepback gets his pump apart, we'll see how much a year of use takes off the brushes - but i suspect they could survive quite a bit more continuous use than that.
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Unread 06-06-2003, 03:28 PM   #103
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Any pics of it running?
Pics are always nice!!
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Unread 06-06-2003, 10:01 PM   #104
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Nice pump, It'll save Me some money ($10) and some possible danger. cool.
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Unread 06-10-2003, 02:16 AM   #105
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any idea when we'll have the results on the pump, I want to get mine set up :-)
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Unread 06-10-2003, 04:40 PM   #106
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Just received mine, and i must say: lol

I was hoping something stronger/better, but anyway it is noisy!
I am 'breaking' it for 48 hours to say if it gets better.
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Unread 06-10-2003, 06:01 PM   #107
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Hmm, Maybe I'd be better off with an Eheim 1048 then, I don't need a noisy pump.
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Unread 06-10-2003, 08:51 PM   #108
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Koslov,

I got your pump today. I'll get it tested on Saturday.

Do you mind if I play around with undervolting it? I'd keep a fast blow fuse on it, so risk would be minimal. (If anything happened to the pump, I'd get you a new one, but it might take longer to get back to you.)

Depending on undervolting results, I could probably put a speed control on it for you. I'd make sure the circuit started the pump above 11V to ensure that it got started, before dropping back to a lower voltage.

There's even a genuine Radio Shack sound level meter at work, so I might be able to get noise level measurements at different voltages.

Also, depending on what kind of transients it puts out, I may be able to give it an RPM output.
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Unread 06-10-2003, 09:02 PM   #109
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Sure, go for it. I have another pump that cost 4x as much, but I might sell it if the Johnson can be silenced. These things are cheap, so if anything happens, I won't be too miffed.
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Unread 06-10-2003, 09:15 PM   #110
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How cheap was It?
I just bought Me an inline or submersible 200Gph continuous duty pump for ($14.00+1.12+8.00 or) $23.12 on ebay and Yes I asked the questions on whether It was an Inline pump or what. And as to tubing on both ends, and Yes It's an AC pump.

# 3.00"L x 1.75"W x 2.50"H
# Flow rate is adjustable - 0 to 200 GPH.

Now I need to get a PCI relay card and some water blocks (Maze3 SHD maybe?, I'm tired of bolting the cpu socket down with pliers, too tight an area, Both inside the case and around the socket, That may be why AMD omitted It from the specs recently) for the cpu, gpu and nb/sb chipset water blocks (I have holes for the chipset in the motherboard built in).
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Unread 06-14-2003, 05:33 PM   #111
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Ok, first stage of pump testing.

Here is a scope image of the pump hooked directly to a Fortron 350 Watt supply.



First off, about this and future images:

On an oscilloscope, vertical indicates voltage, and horizontal indicates time, so as you look at the scope trace from left to right you can see what the voltage is as time progresses. The "M 400ns" as the bottom of the screen indicates that the time per division is 400 nanoseconds.

The voltage per division shown in the lower left corner is 1/10 the actual voltage per division, because I am using a 10X scope probe, and the scope doesn't know it. In other words, each vertical division indicates 2 volts per division.

The arrow on the left of the image with the "1" in it indicates zero volts. So by counting divisions up from there, you can see the voltage at the pump input. In general the voltage at the pumps input is about 11.6 Volts.

I'm sorry about the poor contrast. I'll see what I can do to get better images in the future.

Now, about that noise and spike...

Yes, the voltage measured at the input to the pump is actually going down to almost -2V!!! This is only occasional, but it happens often enough that I could easily catch it.

Now, the output capacitors of the PSU will filter that somewhat, so devices that are powered other than through the particular drive cable the pump is connected to won't see such huge spikes on the power. However, looking at the 12V rail on a second drive cable, I saw dips as low as 9.5 Volts.

Next adding a capacitor...
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Unread 06-14-2003, 06:16 PM   #112
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Here's the result after adding a 0.1uF film cap in parallel with the pump. I got the cap from Radio Shack.



With the cap installed, the worst case dip in the 12V rail was to about 9.5 Volts. Not great, but vastly better than without the cap. As long as you don't share the drive cable with other devices, the PSU's output caps will filter this enough to keep the rest of your hardware happy. Radio Shack sells these capacitors in two-packs. It wouldn't hurt to use both in parallel with the pump, although it probably won't reduce the remaining spike by a factor of two.

Edit: Also, with the cap installed, there is no need for the diode. The diode would have prevented any spikes from getting lower than -0.7 Volts. The capacitor alone is sufficient to do that.

Last edited by Since87; 06-14-2003 at 06:22 PM.
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Unread 06-14-2003, 07:07 PM   #113
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Nice, thanks since87.

Would you be able to show us the spike in relation to the "PWR_GOOD" line from the PSU? I'd like to see the relative timing, and if the spike occurs before or after the power on sequence starts.
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Unread 06-14-2003, 07:22 PM   #114
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These spikes are occuring continously. This is not just a powerup phenomenon.

The spikes are caused by the current flow through the inductance of the motor winding, being interrupted as the brushes switch the polarity of the drive to the windings.

I will be doing some testing of the current draw of the pump, and its behavior when undervolted later this evening.

There is a very clear pattern to the current draw of the pump, and if the nominal RPM of the pump were known, it should be possible to determine its RPM under different undervolted, and flow restricted conditions.

Do you know the nominal RPM Ben?
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Unread 06-14-2003, 09:21 PM   #115
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No, no clue on the RPM, sorry. I'd take a guess at 1'000.
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Unread 06-14-2003, 10:08 PM   #116
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Some more data...

I've got the pump setup in a loop that should be substantially less restrictive than any water cooling system, but I've got a ball valve in the loop.

When I say "unrestricted", I mean ball valve wide open. When I say "restricted", I mean, "Closed to my best eyeballed guess at the restrictiveness of a White Water system." How's that for vague? (If I have time and motivation, I'll setup my calibrated heatercore and some manometers and generate a rough PQ curve at lowered voltage. This particular pump runs (and even starts fine) at under 6V.

I'll get to 6V data later, right now I have the following:

11.55 Volts, Unrestricted = 1.47 Amps (Average).
11.58 Volts, Restricted = 1.15 Amps (Average).
10.18 Volts, Unrestricted = 1.26 Amps (Average).
10.43 Volts, Restricted = 1.07 Amps (Average).
8.32 Volts, Unrestricted = 1.01 Amps (Average).
8.72 Volts, Restricted = 0.88 Amps (Average).

The following scope traces are different from the earlier ones. Rather than connecting the scope to look at the voltage across the pump, the scope is connected across a 1 Ohm resistor that is in series with the pump. This allows me to "see" the current through the pump because 1 Amp through 1 Ohm produces a 1 Volt drop across the resistor. For these tests I have also changed my scope probe to be 1X rather than 10X, so when the scope image says the vertical scale is 500mV, it actually is, and it represents 0.5 Amps per division.



That image shows the current signal with an unrestricted loop and 10.18 Volts applied to the pump. Notice that you can see very clear cycles to the current draw. The number "397 Hz" on the upper right of the image shows the frequency of these cycles.

My best guess is that there are four of these cycles per revolution. That would mean:

RPM = (397/4) * 60 = 5955 :shrug:



That image shows the current signal with a restricted loop and 10.43 Volts applied. In this case the RPM is higher, and you can clearly hear the difference. The pump seems to get louder, and definitely higher in pitch when the flow is restricted. Unfortunately, I forgot to grab the soundmeter from work when I got the scope, so I can't give any objective information on noise.

The noise level is substantially lower, but still clearly noticeable at 6V.

More to come.
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Unread 06-15-2003, 12:32 AM   #117
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Very nice...

i would have to say the RPM estimate's pretty close. i don't remember exactly, but i would say there are around 8-10 brush conctact patches within the motor (and there's no way in hell i'm going to take it apart again), so 6000rpm is probably within ~20% of actual speed at that voltage.

Not that it matters so much though -
I did some casual (very casual) testing with an adjustable power supply after reassembly, and noted a couple of things.

First, the pump was noticeably noisier and slightly less powerful after reassembly. I assume all of the pushing and prodding i did to get the brushes back into place scraped the contact areas up a little. (this would be my third warning so far in this thread to anyone who would consider disassembly out of curiosity...)

Second, the free-flow output capacity seems to correlate (loosely - as i said, this was very casual testing) with the square of the voltage applied. Ohm's law would seem to predict that, but a motor such as this is not a static resistance, and other factors come into effect....

Anyway, what i observed was that voltages below about 10v gave a rather severe performance hit (1/3 to 2/3 of 12v flow), without reducing noise levels much. This may be due to the abnormal brush wear I put on mine, but the whine that makes up the most noticeable noise from the pump was not significantly decreased (i.e. not more than a few db) at lower voltages, just reduced in frequency.

On a whim i cranked it up to 18v for a bit, seeing dramatic (2-3x) increases in flow rate over standard 12v. I would certainly not recommend running the pump over 14v (nor does the manufacturer) but it was interesting to try.


Well, the cap-filtered scope trace is encouraging. I was previously going to run my pump off of a separate power supply, but that doesn't seem necessary anymore. Now i just need to wait for Cathar to start selling his new block...
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Unread 06-15-2003, 01:17 AM   #118
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I decided to test at 7V instead of 6V.

1. It gives some margin above a voltage I know the pump will start at. I didn't actually find the minimum voltage, but I'm done testing now.

2. 7V is a rather convenient voltage to get.

3. It gave better resolution on my manometer.

I only took one pressure vs flowrate point. After I'd taken it I decided to check the noise difference by shorting out the voltage dropping resistor. This wasn't a real bright thing to do, since it blasted water out of one of my manometer tubes, while sucking air into the system through another. My brand new PSU was just inches away from getting a shower.

Anyway, the one set of data I took, had the pressure drop across my heater core at 0.12 mH2O, and the pressure drop across the 'block' (nearly closed ball valve) at 0.48 mH2O. Because BillA measured the flowrate vs pressure drop curve of my heater core, I know that 0.12 mH2O drop across the heater core equates to about 4.9 lpm flowrate. Knowing the flowrate and that the pressure drop across the 'block' was about 0.48 mH2O, I can determine that the 'block' was about as restrictive as Bill's "462-U w/ 3/8" Cu tubing". (As shown in this article.) The ball valve that was simulating the block was closed about as much as in my earlier testing.

I also measured the current draw at 7V with my DMM as being 0.68A. (average) So, the pump was consuming 4.76 Watts while giving enough performance to be useful. In the brief interval before spraying water all over, I noticed that the pump was 'substantially' louder at 11.5V.

I also captured the current draw on the scope:



The cycle rate is only 270 Hz at 7V. (It was 397 Hz in the 10.43V restricted case.)

It would be fairly easy to design a circuit to generate an RPM pulse that could be connected to a fan header. This would allow MBM to shutdown the system in the event of pump failure.

An Op-Amp, some caps, and resistors would provide a bandpass filter that would eliminate irrelevant components of the signal. That could be followed by a comparator with an open collector output, which could drive the fan header directly. (It might be necessary to install a counter or flip-flop to divide the frequency down to a range the motherboard can read. I don't know what max pulse rate the components on the motherboard can cope with.)

Last edited by Since87; 06-15-2003 at 09:53 AM.
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Unread 06-15-2003, 01:42 AM   #119
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if I've got an extra 1000uf capacitor would you recomend adding that to the .1uf capacitor? and if I did run both would I put them in series or parellel? thanks alot to Since87 for the testing and koslov for volunteering the pump
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Unread 06-15-2003, 02:00 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by trit187
if I've got an extra 1000uf capacitor would you recomend adding that to the .1uf capacitor? and if I did run both would I put them in series or parellel? thanks alot to Since87 for the testing and koslov for volunteering the pump
The 1000uF cap is most likely an electrolytic cap, and it won't have any significant impact on the high frequency spikes of the pump. If you are thinking of putting some resistance in series with the pump to lower it's voltage, the 1000uF cap might help your overall system by smoothing out the current draw that the pump requires from the PSU, but I'd have to do some calculations that I'm much to tired to do right now, to know how much effect it would have.

Any additional caps should be in parallel. Multiple film and/or ceramic capacitors of various values would be more beneficial for reducing the fast transient noise. Something like a 1uF film, a 0.1uF film and a 0.01uF film would probably suppress the spikes some more. Cutting the leads of the pump back as close to the pump as you dare, and soldering the cap(s) on close to the body of the pump would likely have some benefit, but I don't think that anything beyond, a single 0.1uF at the normal lead length, is really going to have an impact on system performance. IMO the 0.1uF cap is enough.
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Unread 06-15-2003, 03:41 AM   #121
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ok, sounds good to me, thanks alot
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Unread 06-15-2003, 04:58 AM   #122
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Since87, mate, thanks for your research and the great images.

I wanted to do the same thing, I have the scope but not the two pumps I ordered from Surplus Center.
Anyway, looking at your observations I'm now pretty convinced to use a separate 12V power supply for the pump because:

1. I don't like "pollution" (even negligible) of my Enermax power rails.
2. I still like to be able to run my WC system with the computer PSU powered off (for leak testing etc...)
3. I already have a pump relay for my 220V Eheim 1250, and I can use it with no modifications to switch the Johnson pump together with the Enermax.

An example of a suitable PSU:

The transformer is pretty smal, value of capacitor C1 doesn't bother much, can be any value of some hundreds to thousands of uF, just to smoothen the output voltage a bit.

PS: In case of powering the CO30 by the computer PSU, I still recommend the the "fly wheel" diode on the pump.
When the computer PSU powers down, the pump is still running (slowing down rapidly) and therefore acting as a generator and injecting some voltage back into the PSU.

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Unread 06-15-2003, 08:42 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turbokeu
In case of powering the CO30 by the computer PSU, I still recommend the the "fly wheel" diode on the pump.
When the computer PSU powers down, the pump is still running (slowing down rapidly) and therefore acting as a generator and injecting some voltage back into the PSU.
Very good point. I had only been thinking about the diode in terms of clamping the switching spikes while the pump is running.

I hadn't thought about the pump acting as a generator until it came to a stop.

I agree. The diode should go in. (A 1N4001 is probably the most common diode that would work here.)
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Unread 06-15-2003, 09:50 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turbokeu
Since87, mate, thanks for your research and the great images.

...
Anyway, looking at your observations I'm now pretty convinced to use a separate 12V power supply for the pump ...
I too would like to see the 12V line remain within specs, which is +/- 5%, with 100 mv max ripple, expecially since I'm thinking of using 2 of them
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Unread 06-15-2003, 10:42 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k
I too would like to see the 12V line remain within specs, which is +/- 5%, with 100 mv max ripple, expecially since I'm thinking of using 2 of them
Although I didn't check in every case, I don't believe the 12V rail was ever out of spec anywhere other than on the drive line connected to the pump. (Although 11.5V is certainly low for a lightly loaded 12V rail. I'll have to adjust it.)

The ripple spec refers to changes in the output at the PSU's switching rate. As lightly loaded as the rail was, there is no "ripple" to be seen.

As far as the high frequency transients are concerned...

With the 0.1uF cap installed, I suspect the CPU will cause worse transients on the 12V rail at the motherboard, than the pump does. However, for those who want more significant noise suppression, a ferrite bead core on the 12V line leading to the pump could help. Something like Digi-Key part# 240-2067-ND might do, although I can't find DC current specs on it, and it may be saturated by the 1.5A current draw of the pump to the point it is useless.
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