Troll Alert: Beware of LiquidRulez - Page 4

Blackeagle · 08-23-2003, 07:06 PM

Yeah, I kind of figured that was how you had that info Bill.

Good point regarding Paypal sending the correct address.

jaydee · 08-23-2003, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by unregistered
jd
it would seem that neither you or lr are much concerned with customer relations/satisfaction
if so - you are both 1st class fools

- when you learn how business works, you WILL realize that your customers ARE your business

ignore them at your peril

BTW, paypal does send the correct address, so the responsibility was the sellers

it is curious that no one has asked how I came to have that name and e-mail . . . .
he wanted something from me, the biggest a-hole
lol

what a pair of clowns

How do you know the buyer sent the shipping info with paypal. It is not a requirement. I would "assume" it wasn't in paypal simply because it was in the e-mail's. Why would it be in the e-mails if it was in paypal. Paypal does have an option to NOT send shipping info.

I know oh to well about customer service unregistered. It is my job to. That is one reason I am a manager and a foreman for the two business my boss owns. I have been working for them for just about 8 years now and they are happy with my work so I must be doing something right eh? Not to many customers waiting at the door to complain.

Also you know where you can shove your clowns comments. You seem insulted buy someone "inferior" to you calls you an asshole yet you continue to act of one. I didn't call you any names here and I would expect the same in return from someone of your credentials.

Balckeagal: Only time I know I have a PM is when I get an e-mail saying I have a PM. I hadn't noticed what you speak of untill you just said it. Non the less I think this issue is pretty mute anyway.

There is nothing else to say that would change the opinions of LiquidRulez from either side and Mike got his money back.

pHaestus · 08-23-2003, 08:33 PM

You have to make an effort to leave your address off in paypal and I believe that paypal absolves itself of responsibility in that case. Looks to me like neither side was truthful in their initial comments.

Michael obviously knew already that the wbs had been sent to the wrong address, and apparently LR felt that he was justified in not paying him back.

I can't imagine dealing with customers like that personally. However, I wish I could deal with my credit card companies in such a manner.

"I DID send the whole balance back to you; not my fault it didn't get to the right address. Just go ahead and credit me anyway and give me a zero balance please."

yea right.

MichaelMuck · 08-23-2003, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pHaestus
You have to make an effort to leave your address off in paypal and I believe that paypal absolves itself of responsibility in that case. Looks to me like neither side was truthful in their initial comments.

Michael obviously knew already that the wbs had been sent to the wrong address, and apparently LR felt that he was justified in not paying him back.

I can't imagine dealing with customers like that personally. However, I wish I could deal with my credit card companies in such a manner.

"I DID send the whole balance back to you; not my fault it didn't get to the right address. Just go ahead and credit me anyway and give me a zero balance please."

yea right.

actually, just noticed the address after re reading the email 2 hours ago

ralf_c · 08-23-2003, 11:14 PM

i donno who's side is true but when a seller comes to an agreement with a buyer the parties MUST confirm closure of the deal once the goods are rendered and delivered. it is the seller's responsibility to confirm that the goods rendered have been delivered and that the deal came to a close. by the same token the buyer must acknowledge he/she has received the goods and confirm the deal done.

fact of the matter is the buyer claim he did not receive his product and the seller allegedly failed to communicate with the buyer for a long time. if this is all true then liquidwarez is at the very least guilty of bad business etiquette.

bigben2k · 08-25-2003, 12:07 PM

I hate to stir up this thread again...

In my experiences of purchasing computer equipment for the company that I used to work for (Air Canada), the shipments terms are clearly stated in the contract between the parties involved.

More often than not, what I encountered was the term F.O.B. (Freight on board), which I believe means that the seller takes responsability for the shipping, in terms of damage/loss/theft, which limits the seller's responsability to the time the stock leaves the facility. I remember shipping charges being fairly high.

It would then falls on the buyer to make the appropriate arrangements, which the seller must of course accomodate.

It would seem to me that if the seller doesn't accomodate the request for insurance and/or tracking, that the seller then takes on that responsability.

Now if the seller doesn't have such a policy, this is where lawyers get involved, review all the exchanges, and try to find fault, go to court, and make their case.

I don't believe that there is any responsability that defaults to either the buyer or the seller, without a policy, but I'm no lawyer, Canadian or US. Either way, it seems to me like having this policy in place is a good idea.

Of course Bill brings an excellent point: happy customers are critical. In my recent on-line purchases, I've been charged "delivery confirmation" by default, without an option to exclude it, so it seems logical to me that these vendors took on the responsability of getting the product out to the buyer, and they'd have to replace anything that they can't confirm was received. Again, a policy that is in place.

jaydee · 08-25-2003, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
I hate to stir up this thread again...

In my experiences of purchasing computer equipment for the company that I used to work for (Air Canada), the shipments terms are clearly stated in the contract between the parties involved.

More often than not, what I encountered was the term F.O.B. (Freight on board), which I believe means that the seller takes responsability for the shipping, in terms of damage/loss/theft, which limits the seller's responsability to the time the stock leaves the facility. I remember shipping charges being fairly high.

It would then falls on the buyer to make the appropriate arrangements, which the seller must of course accomodate.

It would seem to me that if the seller doesn't accomodate the request for insurance and/or tracking, that the seller then takes on that responsability.

Now if the seller doesn't have such a policy, this is where lawyers get involved, review all the exchanges, and try to find fault, go to court, and make their case.

I don't believe that there is any responsability that defaults to either the buyer or the seller, without a policy, but I'm no lawyer, Canadian or US. Either way, it seems to me like having this policy in place is a good idea.

Of course Bill brings an excellent point: happy customers are critical. In my recent on-line purchases, I've been charged "delivery confirmation" by default, without an option to exclude it, so it seems logical to me that these vendors took on the responsability of getting the product out to the buyer, and they'd have to replace anything that they can't confirm was received. Again, a policy that is in place.

Sounds good if it is a business. We take responsibility if something is proven not to be dilivered. Anything over a certain amount of money gets a tracking #.

But LiquidRulkez is not a business. So as a buyer you should take extra precaution dealing with a non established business. I do not know of a website where LiquidRulez is selling and advertizing his blocks nor any terms of agreement anywhere. Could be wrong though.

This whole thread is one of the many I decided not to bother selling any of my blocks. Now it looks as if the Chinese might take the design anyway and start selling it.... Such is life....

pHaestus · 08-25-2003, 12:51 PM

This isn't a grey area really.

When you pay for something, you expect to get it. If you don't then you want your money back.

That's pretty simple.

If you are a seller you are responsible for getting the item to someone's door. You can minimize your liability by buying insurance (NOTE: the shipping companies offer the insurance to the person shipping the item and not to the person receiving it. Why? It's the shipper's responsibility!) and by getting verification that the package made it to the right spot.

How is it the buyer's fault that the seller shipped the item to the wrong address? Why would the mistake of the seller warrant a loss of money on the buyer?

This isn't rocket science guys.

I can put myself in both shoes here pretty easily:

If I am the buyer then I want my stuff or I want my money. Seems reasonable.

If I am the seller, then I feel like I got screwed because I spent probably more in parts and materials and time than I should have, and then I shipped the final product out and it never got there. Shit I shipped to wrong address and so I cant get it back and can't get the USPS involved. How about we just split the difference? I eat the $45 I was going to charge you on receipt, and you eat the $45 I already paid? That's reasonable, right?

NO. The buyer took care of everything on his end, and the seller ****ed up. Pay the money back or ship another block and chalk it up as a learning experience.

That's what happened here in the end so it all worked out. Just took a bit of public outcry.

jaydee · 08-25-2003, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pHaestus
This isn't a grey area really.

When you pay for something, you expect to get it. If you don't then you want your money back.

That's pretty simple.

If you are a seller you are responsible for getting the item to someone's door. You can minimize your liability by buying insurance (NOTE: the shipping companies offer the insurance to the person shipping the item and not to the person receiving it. Why? It's the shipper's responsibility!) and by getting verification that the package made it to the right spot.

How is it the buyer's fault that the seller shipped the item to the wrong address? Why would the mistake of the seller warrant a loss of money on the buyer?

This isn't rocket science guys.

I can put myself in both shoes here pretty easily:

If I am the buyer then I want my stuff or I want my money. Seems reasonable.

If I am the seller, then I feel like I got screwed because I spent probably more in parts and materials and time than I should have, and then I shipped the final product out and it never got there. Shit I shipped to wrong address and so I cant get it back and can't get the USPS involved. How about we just split the difference? I eat the $45 I was going to charge you on receipt, and you eat the $45 I already paid? That's reasonable, right?

NO. The buyer took care of everything on his end, and the seller ****ed up. Pay the money back or ship another block and chalk it up as a learning experience.

That's what happened here in the end so it all worked out. Just took a bit of public outcry.

Buyer gives the wrong shipping address.....

Joe · 08-25-2003, 01:22 PM

Beat this dead horse!!!

jaydee · 08-25-2003, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe
Beat this dead horse!!!

LOL, I think we are working on horse #2 now.

I think the moral of the story is:

Seller needs to put a tracking and confirmation of delivery on everything shipped.

Buyer needs to give accurate info and should be careful who they are dealing with.

Enough said?

joemac · 08-25-2003, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
LOL, I think we are working on horse #2 now.

I think the moral of the story is:

Seller needs to put a tracking and confirmation of delivery on everything shipped.

Buyer needs to give accurate info and should be careful who they are dealing with.

Enough said?

I agree 100% (while kicking horse)- Take that you stupid horse.

GTA · 08-25-2003, 03:17 PM

Since this seems like it was a genuine mistake ( or at the very least, not a deliberate attempt to rip off someone by LiquidRulez )

Should this thread telling people to beware of dealing with him still stand?

Who thinks that this WAS a deliberate attempt to take money from Michael without sending the goods? and who thinks that LR made good on his promise to send the goods, but sent them to the wrong place?

If the Majority decide that it was the former, then fair enough, he's a Troll.

pHaestus · 08-25-2003, 03:19 PM

My opinion is that he sent the block and then refused to refund the money when it didnt arrive there. And that the forum thread changed his mind on that. Just an opinion.

Not an outright theft or fraud, but I would certainly give a negative rating to the trade if I were the buyer.

Khledar · 08-25-2003, 04:11 PM

It's not exactly a majority issue - it's one negative feedback from one user - our opinions on a single deal really don't matter. When we're being prospective buyers/sellers it's the overall history of trades that form a judgement of un/acceptable trader. This trade should be a negative - but similar to big(and good) traders on ebay most have 97-100% positive - very rarely is it 100% - meaning a troll is not formed from one poor transaction.

There will always be deals that don't work out - for whatever reason - and regardless of how cheated you feel by person A's customer service - that doesn't make them a troll. There is AFAIK a resolution to this - yes it seems a bit shady. We can, and SHOULD, judge every person we trade with - but it is not necessary for us to judge someone pubilicly on a deal we are nor ever were part of.

The idea of trader evaluations is such that buyers/sellers post experiences with people, not so random people can post their opinions on how they feel about deal X.

There's nothing wrong with trying to inform people but I definately agree with trollhunters.com on the below statement.

"First thing you should do if another is giving you a hard time with a deal is to contact the moderator at the forum the trade originated at so they know what's going on." - trollhunters.com

[Edit: re-read changed wording a bit - just trying to be clearer]

Bignuts · 08-26-2003, 02:38 AM

1. Crush the Enemy

2. See them Driven Before You

3. Hear the Lamentaions of the Women

08-23-2003, 11:14 PM	#80
ralf_c Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: LA Posts: 61	i donno who's side is true but when a seller comes to an agreement with a buyer the parties MUST confirm closure of the deal once the goods are rendered and delivered. it is the seller's responsibility to confirm that the goods rendered have been delivered and that the deal came to a close. by the same token the buyer must acknowledge he/she has received the goods and confirm the deal done. fact of the matter is the buyer claim he did not receive his product and the seller allegedly failed to communicate with the buyer for a long time. if this is all true then liquidwarez is at the very least guilty of bad business etiquette. __________________ best regards, ralf Last edited by ralf_c; 09-01-2003 at 05:50 PM.

08-25-2003, 12:07 PM	#81
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I hate to stir up this thread again... In my experiences of purchasing computer equipment for the company that I used to work for (Air Canada), the shipments terms are clearly stated in the contract between the parties involved. More often than not, what I encountered was the term F.O.B. (Freight on board), which I believe means that the seller takes responsability for the shipping, in terms of damage/loss/theft, which limits the seller's responsability to the time the stock leaves the facility. I remember shipping charges being fairly high. It would then falls on the buyer to make the appropriate arrangements, which the seller must of course accomodate. It would seem to me that if the seller doesn't accomodate the request for insurance and/or tracking, that the seller then takes on that responsability. Now if the seller doesn't have such a policy, this is where lawyers get involved, review all the exchanges, and try to find fault, go to court, and make their case. I don't believe that there is any responsability that defaults to either the buyer or the seller, without a policy, but I'm no lawyer, Canadian or US. Either way, it seems to me like having this policy in place is a good idea. Of course Bill brings an excellent point: happy customers are critical. In my recent on-line purchases, I've been charged "delivery confirmation" by default, without an option to exclude it, so it seems logical to me that these vendors took on the responsability of getting the product out to the buyer, and they'd have to replace anything that they can't confirm was received. Again, a policy that is in place. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

08-25-2003, 01:22 PM	#85
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	Beat this dead horse!!! __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

08-25-2003, 04:11 PM	#90
Khledar Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North Vancouver BC Posts: 234	It's not exactly a majority issue - it's one negative feedback from one user - our opinions on a single deal really don't matter. When we're being prospective buyers/sellers it's the overall history of trades that form a judgement of un/acceptable trader. This trade should be a negative - but similar to big(and good) traders on ebay most have 97-100% positive - very rarely is it 100% - meaning a troll is not formed from one poor transaction. There will always be deals that don't work out - for whatever reason - and regardless of how cheated you feel by person A's customer service - that doesn't make them a troll. There is AFAIK a resolution to this - yes it seems a bit shady. We can, and SHOULD, judge every person we trade with - but it is not necessary for us to judge someone pubilicly on a deal we are nor ever were part of. The idea of trader evaluations is such that buyers/sellers post experiences with people, not so random people can post their opinions on how they feel about deal X. There's nothing wrong with trying to inform people but I definately agree with trollhunters.com on the below statement. "First thing you should do if another is giving you a hard time with a deal is to contact the moderator at the forum the trade originated at so they know what's going on." - trollhunters.com [Edit: re-read changed wording a bit - just trying to be clearer] __________________ "mooooo" said the cow. ERTW - UBC P4 2.4B @3.01Ghz 167FSB :: Abit IC7 :: 2x256MB HyperX PC3700 :: ASUS 9600XT :: WD Raptor 2x36GB RAID0 Last edited by Khledar; 08-25-2003 at 04:18 PM.

08-26-2003, 02:38 AM	#91
Bignuts Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 155	Simple 1. Crush the Enemy 2. See them Driven Before You 3. Hear the Lamentaions of the Women

08-23-2003, 07:06 PM	#76
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	Yeah, I kind of figured that was how you had that info Bill. Good point regarding Paypal sending the correct address.

08-23-2003, 08:33 PM	#78
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	You have to make an effort to leave your address off in paypal and I believe that paypal absolves itself of responsibility in that case. Looks to me like neither side was truthful in their initial comments. Michael obviously knew already that the wbs had been sent to the wrong address, and apparently LR felt that he was justified in not paying him back. I can't imagine dealing with customers like that personally. However, I wish I could deal with my credit card companies in such a manner. "I DID send the whole balance back to you; not my fault it didn't get to the right address. Just go ahead and credit me anyway and give me a zero balance please." yea right.

08-25-2003, 12:51 PM	#83
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	This isn't a grey area really. When you pay for something, you expect to get it. If you don't then you want your money back. That's pretty simple. If you are a seller you are responsible for getting the item to someone's door. You can minimize your liability by buying insurance (NOTE: the shipping companies offer the insurance to the person shipping the item and not to the person receiving it. Why? It's the shipper's responsibility!) and by getting verification that the package made it to the right spot. How is it the buyer's fault that the seller shipped the item to the wrong address? Why would the mistake of the seller warrant a loss of money on the buyer? This isn't rocket science guys. I can put myself in both shoes here pretty easily: If I am the buyer then I want my stuff or I want my money. Seems reasonable. If I am the seller, then I feel like I got screwed because I spent probably more in parts and materials and time than I should have, and then I shipped the final product out and it never got there. Shit I shipped to wrong address and so I cant get it back and can't get the USPS involved. How about we just split the difference? I eat the $45 I was going to charge you on receipt, and you eat the $45 I already paid? That's reasonable, right? NO. The buyer took care of everything on his end, and the seller ****ed up. Pay the money back or ship another block and chalk it up as a learning experience. That's what happened here in the end so it all worked out. Just took a bit of public outcry.

08-25-2003, 03:17 PM	#88
GTA Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: UK - Bristol Posts: 134	Since this seems like it was a genuine mistake ( or at the very least, not a deliberate attempt to rip off someone by LiquidRulez ) Should this thread telling people to beware of dealing with him still stand? Who thinks that this WAS a deliberate attempt to take money from Michael without sending the goods? and who thinks that LR made good on his promise to send the goods, but sent them to the wrong place? If the Majority decide that it was the former, then fair enough, he's a Troll.

08-25-2003, 03:19 PM	#89
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	My opinion is that he sent the block and then refused to refund the money when it didnt arrive there. And that the forum thread changed his mind on that. Just an opinion. Not an outright theft or fraud, but I would certainly give a negative rating to the trade if I were the buyer.

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