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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 08-28-2007, 06:58 PM   #1
ulairi
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stateside
Posts: 17
New setup (sanity check)

Been reading up on the current state-o-things in order to figure out a good rig to put together.

So far, I have the following hardware:

Case: Antec 182
PSU: PC Power & Cooling Silencer 750 Quad
Motherboard: ASUS P5N32E-SLI
CPU: Intel E6850
RAM: Corsair CM2X1024-8500C5D
Storage: Dual 150 GiB SATA HDDs
Optical: Ye Ole DVD+-RW/CD-+R drive. Nothing fancy.

The Antec case may prove a bit cramped, but I am not adverse to taking a Dremmel or other tools to it. Hanging a radiator outside is not out of the question - the case is more cramped than I thought, though on the back it does have two rubber-edged holes for the hoses.

The system's goal is to be a gaming rig. While the motherboard is quite capable of supporting dual video cards, I am not going there just yet. The video card choice currently teeters between the ATI HD 2900XT and the nVidia 8800GTS (640MiB RAM edition).
Despite it being a gaming rig, overclocking, if/when done, will be rather tame. Edit: eVGA only makes nVidia-based cards. Since eVGA is the only company which honors the warranty after one swaps the cooling components, the 8800GTS starts looking more attractive.

Being that this will be a gaming box, I can tolerate a certain level of noise with the max at 28 dBA. While this is not the dead-silent standard set by some members of this board, I feel I can live with that, although if based on advice and other factors, I end up with a box that runs 4C warmer but 2dBA quieter, I will have no hesitation making that trade off (proviso that the temperatures are within thermal limits of the components).

The "usual" suspects in WC: Koolance, ThermoChill (rads only), DangerDen, SwifTech, Innovatek, Asetek, PolarFlo, and Zalman. There are others, but things are more complicated by what is available in the U.S. versus Europe.

Per http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10825, ThermoChill radiators seems like a very viable option in the 2 or even 3-fan variety (PA120.2 and PA120.3) since they are optimized for low CFM fans and low CFM means less noise.

So, a proposed system would have to cool:

1) CPU
2) GPU (with possible capacity for two?)

I feel the case fans at their lowest setting (producing, according to the spec, 25dBA-o-noise) will provide sufficient airflow to move the air around the case and cool the heatpipe-based chipset of the motherboard as well as the already-heatspread-RAM DIMMs. I could be quite wrong about the RAM, though.

Please bear in mind that a) I'm a newbie (yeah, that one wasn't blatantly obvious) to the WC scene, and b) these are just ideas - I've bought no cooling hardware.

What complicates things a bit is the future-proofing I'd like to do in that if/when I go with a dual GPU setup, I'd like to cool it with a minimum of redesign. This may be a silly goal and I can easily be persuaded to abandon it.

Pump: SwifTech's MCP350 or 355 with their combination of head and flow rates seem to be quite favorably reviewed and they do not appear to dump a bunch of heat back into the loop.

Tubing: Tygon 1/2 ID with SwifTech's SmartCoils or similar

Hose Clamps: Worm drive. I might even go get some larger diameter tubing, cut it up and use them as a layer of protection between the clamp itself and the hose, allowing me to clamp things down reasonably well and not bite into the hose itself.

CPU WaterBlock: Danger Den's Copper TDX or RDX, SwifTech's Apogee GT (or even GTX + Copper housing for greater thermal capacity of the WB). Currently, of what is available in the U.S., the Apogee GTX is the leader.
ExodusFlow Altauna (tested by MadShrimps), while not available in the U.S., seems to be quite highly rated.

GPU WaterBlock: Depends on the video card. The choice of the card does have a minor dependency of which one can be cooled better. DangerDen makes one for the 8800GTS. Claims to be SLI-ready, which is a plus. DD also claims to have a nice block for the ATI card, with crossfire compatibility. SwifTech's solution will require a separate memory waterblock which is less than ideal. However, http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=get...57&articID=554 indicates that the MCW-60 does outperform the DD solution - possibly because RAM is air-cooled. One wonders what would be the net effect of using the MCW-60 + the RAM waterblock. In the same article, it is clear that in the SLI mode and waterblocks in series, the second card will get some seriously warmer (+10C) coolant. Perhaps running the waterblocks in parallel is a better solution?

Cooling Liquid: MCT-5 (http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=getarticle&articID=363)

Others ThermalTake's CL-W0033 LCD temp probe?

Overall, it seems that SwifTech's products, albeit pricey, are consistently reviewed to be one of the best (taking into account the availability issue).

Comments? Suggestions? Ridicule? All is welcome, including where to RTFM.

Last edited by ulairi; 08-28-2007 at 07:11 PM.
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Unread 08-29-2007, 04:02 PM   #2
billbartuska
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Location: Skokie, Illinois
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ulairi
The system's goal is to be a gaming rig.

Pump: SwifTech's MCP350 or 355
Tubing: Tygon 1/2 ID with SwifTech's SmartCoils or similar

Hose Clamps: Worm drive.
CPU WaterBlock: Danger Den's Copper TDX or RDX, SwifTech's Apogee GT (or even GTX + Copper housing for greater thermal capacity of the WB). Currently, of what is available in the U.S., the Apogee GTX is the leader.

GPU WaterBlock:.. In the same article, it is clear that in the SLI mode and waterblocks in series, the second card will get some seriously warmer (+10C) coolant. Perhaps running the waterblocks in parallel is a better solution?

Cooling Liquid: MCT-5

Others ThermalTake's CL-W0033 LCD temp probe?
First off, when you're done there aint gonna be no 28db's. Way to much heat for that. Have you considered rheostats for the fans. One each for Case fans/Rad fans

There are better pumps - Swiftech MCP655

Tygon R-3603 - ca-ching! $$$, but it's the best. You may want to consider 7/16"
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=147767
(And read everything you can find by him.)

Just worm drives..that's all you need.

CPU blocks: Apogee GTX w/copper (bowed?). or Dtek Fusion.

GPU: Avoid full coverage blocks. Hard to get good contact with GPU and memory....they are useless if (when!) you upgrade your card(s)...Swiftech MPW60 w/ramsinks.

Cooling liquid: Distilled water (thats d i s t i l l e d)) 5% antifreeze (10% if there is any aluminum in the loop) and a few drops of Iodine. Leave out the antifreeze for max performance. Anything else is just lower performance bling.

That temp sensor is nice. I''ve been using one for almost two years. Water temps tell you what is really going on both everyday and when you want to see how new parts perform (or how those rheostats are working!) Do not use their fittings though...way, way to small. Pull out the sensor and epoxy it into a 3/4x1/2x3/4 tee. You can also put it into a smaller tee on a bypass by using two wye fittings. After all, it doesn't need much flow.

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=369416
__________________
My new rig....
Intel SE440BX-3, PIII 550 (@ 680)
MX440 275/332 (@ 350/400) and 3DFX Voodo 5 5500 160/160 (@180/180)
Two Opticals and 120 gigs (w/28gigs in RAID0) on 4 Maxstors

Last edited by billbartuska; 08-29-2007 at 04:11 PM.
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Unread 08-29-2007, 10:14 PM   #3
ulairi
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Posts: 17
Re: New setup (sanity check)

Bill,

Thanks for the responses. If I come off as challenging of your advice, it is not intentional. My goal is, first and foremost, to learn and understand why things are "so".

Quote:
Originally Posted by billbartuska
First off, when you're done there aint gonna be no 28db's. Way to much heat for that. Have you considered rheostats for the fans. One each for Case fans/Rad fans
Hrmm... didn't realize it'll be that noisy. The case fans are three-speed selectable, so putting them on a rheostat setup seems like a relatively easy and worth-while thing to do. I'll definately add it to my "to-do" list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billbartuska
There are better pumps - Swiftech MCP655
Curious. Compared to the MCP355, it has lower head but much higher flow. Why do you feel there is a need for the increased flow versus better head pressure? http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=369416 to which you pointed me indicates that a modified MCP355 is actually a better bet, especially if it is not run at full voltage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billbartuska
Tygon R-3603 - ca-ching! $$$, but it's the best. You may want to consider 7/16"
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=147767
(And read everything you can find by him.)
Will RTFM. The original exchange between Cathar and Marci is what got me re-investigating the State Of The Water Cooling Scene (tm)(r)(q)(p)(z) in the first place.

R-3603 does seem expensive. Will have to scrounge around.

A quick search shows that they are mostly sold in 50-ft lengths, which seems about 40-feet too long for what I want to do (and even then I am being more than generous. I should not need more than 7 feet if I do it right). Google is my friend and it'll give me something to do at work.

What is the a good second-best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by billbartuska
CPU blocks: Apogee GTX w/copper (bowed?). or Dtek Fusion.
Yeah, that's what I figured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billbartuska
GPU: Avoid full coverage blocks. Hard to get good contact with GPU and memory....they are useless if (when!) you upgrade your card(s)...Swiftech MPW60 w/ramsinks.
That was the impression I got when reading the reviews of the full coverage sinks versus the GPU-only + RAM sinks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billbartuska
Cooling liquid: Distilled water (thats d i s t i l l e d)) 5% antifreeze (10% if there is any aluminum in the loop) and a few drops of Iodine. Leave out the antifreeze for max performance. Anything else is just lower performance bling.
My concern is conductivity. I am a pessimist and would like to plan for the inevitable contingency that a leak will develop. Hence the MCP-5 choice. My first (and only) water cooling setup circa 1999 did run on distilled water, sprung a leak, and ate the machine. Bad memories. That's when I learned to hate the plastic hose clamps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billbartuska
That temp sensor is nice. I''ve been using one for almost two years. Water temps tell you what is really going on both everyday and when you want to see how new parts perform (or how those rheostats are working!) Do not use their fittings though...way, way to small. Pull out the sensor and epoxy it into a 3/4x1/2x3/4 tee. You can also put it into a smaller tee on a bypass by using two way fittings. After all, it doesn't need much flow.
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=369416
The fittings did look too small, figured I'd have to improvise. Didn't realize just by how much, but not a big deal. Ideally, the geek in me wants to know temps at multiple points in the loop:
1) Arriving at CPU
2) Leaving the CPU/Arriving to GPU,
3) Leaving the GPU/Arriving at Rad
4) Leaving the RAD/Arriving at pump.

The realist in me is telling the geek to STFU.
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Unread 08-29-2007, 10:19 PM   #4
ulairi
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

Hrmm.. http://www.smallparts.com/products/descriptions/682.cfm
The highest they go in terms of size is 1/2" ID, but hey, they have 10/25/50-foot lengths. $20 - $40 is a damned sight better than $230 or higher for a 50-foot spool I saw.
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Unread 08-30-2007, 06:52 AM   #5
bobkoure
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

IMHO 28dB should be pretty straightforward.

Have you already bought the case? The 180/182 is very nice - for air cooling. Once you get into water cooling the separate airflow path design of the 180/182 is (IMHO) more hindrance than help. I'd look at some of the larger Antec server cases - particularly if you're going to hog out a big-ass hole in the lower front for a radiator/intake. Sorry I can't recommend a particular one - their models have changed since my last build.

Whichever case you get, mass-load all the panels. I've had very good luck with Elemental Designs eDead V.1 Sound Deadening - which is a butyl core with adhesive on one side and heavy foil on the other. About a dollar a square foot at ED. You can layer it, (the adhesive sticks to the foil just fine) and you probably should figure on two layers. It's easy to cut with a box knife or scissors.
Once you've got that installed (to deal with pump vibration), then add a layer of acoustic foam. ED's got some, but I haven't used it (have a lot of dynamat stuff in my garage, waiting to be used up).
The loading is to deal with pump noise (well, pump vibration that can cause panels to vibrate and those cause the noise. The foam is to kill the high-pitched noise from your drives.

The best way to figure what (other than side/top/bottom panels - which you should just mass-load) is to hook up your pump so it can run (maybe just a loop with a reservoir) and let it lie on some sheet metal in your case - which will let you see how your vibration-killing is working before you install motherboard, etc.

Once you've got that about as quiet as it's going to be, get some "gel stuff" from Petra's tech shop (amazing stuff - about four dollars for a 3" by 3" pad) and use that to isolate your pump.

About the only other thing you can do to kill pump noise is to use soft silicone tubing to/from the pump (the tubing's the remaining vibration path). The downside is that this stuff lets coolant evaporate slowly, so you'll need a reservoir.

The key to reducing fan noise is to have as large a radiator as you can fit (preferably using case-intake air). Thin is also good as it reduces the pressure required to flow air and loses very little in cooling capacity. There's lots of discussion about this here on PC - and the Thermochill PA160 came out of that discussion - so at least consider that rad.
I've had good luck with Nexus 120mm fans, both for case exhaust and for pulling through a radiator (if you are using a heater core you will need to "stack" them in order to get sufficient pressure while still slowed way down). They don't "tick" when PWMed.

There are quiet power supplies out there. I've had really good luck with Seasonic.

I think that's about it. My current PC isn't as powerful as what you're looking at (OC'ed AMD X2) and it's not completely inaudible - but I have to stick my head under my desk to hear it (mostly a whisper of disk noise). BTW, I've got the exhaust fans speed-controlled on case air temp and the rad fans speed controlled on cpu-block temp. I expected it to get louder when the room temp's up and I've got the CPU at 100% (mpeg encoding, mostly) - and it does get a bit louder, but I still have to move under the desk to hear it (a little whoosh added to the disk whisper).

Hope this helps - use/ignore at your pleasure...
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Unread 08-30-2007, 07:13 PM   #6
ulairi
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Location: Stateside
Posts: 17
Re: New setup (sanity check)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
IMHO 28dB should be pretty straightforward.

Have you already bought the case? The 180/182 is very nice - for air cooling. Once you get into water cooling the separate airflow path design of the 180/182 is (IMHO) more hindrance than help. I'd look at some of the larger Antec server cases - particularly if you're going to hog out a big-ass hole in the lower front for a radiator/intake. Sorry I can't recommend a particular one - their models have changed since my last build.

Whichever case you get, mass-load all the panels.
The bad news is that I already have the case. The good news is that the 182 is actually quite sound dampened. Having taken a long thoughtful look at the case layout, it seems quite likely that I will have to take a Dremmel to it. That was a highly likely thing almost regardless of the case (save for the SuperMicro-sized server full tower cases). I'll get a hold of the eDead stuff in case I need to add. There are rubberized mounts everywhere in the case. Since I'll have to scuttle at least one drive cage, I can use its rubberized mounts to isolate the pump's vibrations from the rest of the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
About the only other thing you can do to kill pump noise is to use soft silicone tubing to/from the pump (the tubing's the remaining vibration path). The downside is that this stuff lets coolant evaporate slowly, so you'll need a reservoir.
Hrmm... hadn't thought of the hoses issue, thanks for bringing that up. If I cannot figure out a way to dampen them, I'll have to follow your suggestion (then again, it'll remain to be seen as to the amount of noise I'll get with Tygon everywhere.) I'll certainly keep a couple of feet of soft silicone stuff - it is inexpensive enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
The key to reducing fan noise is to have as large a radiator as you can fit (preferably using case-intake air). Thin is also good as it reduces the pressure required to flow air and loses very little in cooling capacity. There's lots of discussion about this here on PC - and the Thermochill PA160 came out of that discussion - so at least consider that rad.
I've had good luck with Nexus 120mm fans, both for case exhaust and for pulling through a radiator (if you are using a heater core you will need to "stack" them in order to get sufficient pressure while still slowed way down). They don't "tick" when PWMed.
The 160 is, indeed, an excellent rad for low-CFM enviroments - the news of its development was the link that led me to these forums. It is my understanding that it is only meant for one fan. I can't help but think that its internal volume may not be appropos to cool a C2D and a rather power-hungry GPU. An additional caveat is its availability which, state-side, seems rather... attrocious, whereas the 120 series, while not as efficient, are more plentiful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
There are quiet power supplies out there. I've had really good luck with Seasonic.
Quite true. I've picked PC&C's for the high efficiency and very stable voltages choosing to sacrifice the silence in this particular case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
I think that's about it. My current PC isn't as powerful as what you're looking at (OC'ed AMD X2) and it's not completely inaudible - but I have to stick my head under my desk to hear it (mostly a whisper of disk noise). BTW, I've got the exhaust fans speed-controlled on case air temp and the rad fans speed controlled on cpu-block temp. I expected it to get louder when the room temp's up and I've got the CPU at 100% (mpeg encoding, mostly) - and it does get a bit louder, but I still have to move under the desk to hear it (a little whoosh added to the disk whisper).

Hope this helps - use/ignore at your pleasure...
If I can get thereabout in my setup in terms of silence, I'd be quite happy. My current PC is a shuttle (SN25P) which will become a media player machine when the new one goes online. That one will *have* to be utterly silent, though I am not sure how much I'll be able to do given the size of the case. An MCP350 pump at the lowest voltage setting, ThermoChill 160 and the quietest fan I can find seem appropriate. The video card will likely be an ATI 2400 or 2600 series - that'll give me SD/HD decode acceleration sans the heat.

All that, however, is in the future. First, this rig.

Thank you kindly for the advice and suggestions. I'll use what I can, and learn from the rest.
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Unread 08-30-2007, 10:04 PM   #7
ulairi
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Posts: 17
Re: New setup (sanity check)

Quote:
Originally Posted by billbartuska
First off, when you're done there aint gonna be no 28db's. Way to much heat for that. Have you considered rheostats for the fans. One each for Case fans/Rad fans

There are better pumps - Swiftech MCP655

Tygon R-3603 - ca-ching! $$$, but it's the best. You may want to consider 7/16"
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=147767
(And read everything you can find by him.)
Having read the article, it certainly seems that the MCP350 or 355 (Laing DDC1+) and 7/16th or even 3/8th ID tubing + quick connects will do the job just fine.
For the QF stuff, 51025K187 from http://www.mcmaster.com/ seems to be The Thing.
QFs have issues thin-walled tubing because the physical force necessary to clamp the hose also damages it. I'll have to make sure the walls of the tubing are thick enough
to account for that if I do go with QF. Gabe (of the SwifTech fame) is clearly against the idea of QF, indicating that in a low-pressure enviroment the seal must be achieved via the mechanical means, which is less that ideal.
At higher pressure, the pressure itself will help the seal.

http://www.t-balancer.com/english/pr...tban_bigng.htm looks Quite Interesting (tm) as well since it claims to be able to control pump speeds in response to temperature thresholds, plus USB uplink to the machine for software control.

Tubing: Tygon Silver antimicrobial for that "Die Algea Die" effect? It also has a lower permeability rating? Norprene-based tubing (per Gabe, SwifTech) seems better because it has the lowest rating.
Norprene is the current winner. QF is a bad idea - leaks and such.

If I want to run multiple loops (say, one for the CPU/GPU, one for another GPU and a third to handle RAM/NorthBridge, et cetera), I'd need to use a water manifold. http://www.emiplastics.com/water_regulators2.htm, http://www.emiplastics.com/water_regulators.htm, and http://www.plastixs.com/burg01/b01_03.html are some examples.
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Unread 08-31-2007, 06:14 AM   #8
bobkoure
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

My experience with algae is that if you don't expose your coolant to light you won't get any.

You will definitely need to mass-load the side panels. There's some loading already there, but not nearly enough to deal with pump vibration.

Those silicone grommets are great for isolating drives, but that gel stuff at Petras is at least an order of magnitude more effective. Spend the four bucks.

The bright side about that case is that the vents around the outside of the front hatch seem to reduce the airflow "whoosh" noise.

Any of those pumps will cool your gear. If you were pushing for a max overclock, then, yeah, higher pressure will drop your temps a couple of degrees, which might translate to a bit more O/C - once you've raised voltages yet again.
It's a trade-off. Like most everything else. If you were trying to as-quiet-as-possible, I'd be pointing you at the innovatek/eheim HPPS pump, which is dead silent (but vibrates as all Eheims seem to do) but is also weak-ass and your temps will be higher.
BTW, I have read that the 350s with modded tops at petras are both quieter and have a bit more flow than stock. I've no personal experience with these (maybe next build) but it sounds like something worth checking out.

As far as the 160 goes - don't think so much about cubic capacity as frontal area when comparing radiators, then think fin pitch. There are some other 'HA' series rads. And I'm pretty sure you can get 'em directly from thermochill.co.uk.
Have a look at this thread (note that Marci owns Thermochill - but he's an enthusiast.
Personally, I've always liked that square form factor - much easier to put it in the lower front of a tower case. Not sure it that'll work for your case, though...
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Unread 08-31-2007, 09:23 PM   #9
ulairi
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Re: New setup (sanity check)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
My experience with algae is that if you don't expose your coolant to light you won't get any.

You will definitely need to mass-load the side panels. There's some loading already there, but not nearly enough to deal with pump vibration.

Those silicone grommets are great for isolating drives, but that gel stuff at Petras is at least an order of magnitude more effective. Spend the four bucks.
Will do. It is certainly not about the money (hell, I'm pondering the Norprene tubing...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
The bright side about that case is that the vents around the outside of the front hatch seem to reduce the airflow "whoosh" noise.
Great to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
Any of those pumps will cool your gear. If you were pushing for a max overclock, then, yeah, higher pressure will drop your temps a couple of degrees, which might translate to a bit more O/C - once you've raised voltages yet again.
It's a trade-off. Like most everything else. If you were trying to as-quiet-as-possible, I'd be pointing you at the innovatek/eheim HPPS pump, which is dead silent (but vibrates as all Eheims seem to do) but is also weak-ass and your temps will be higher.
BTW, I have read that the 350s with modded tops at petras are both quieter and have a bit more flow than stock. I've no personal experience with these (maybe next build) but it sounds like something worth checking out.
Any O/C'ing I do will be minor. My decision to go with water cooling is motivated by my irrational need to be able to hear my phone when the PC is on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
As far as the 160 goes - don't think so much about cubic capacity as frontal area when comparing radiators, then think fin pitch. There are some other 'HA' series rads. And I'm pretty sure you can get 'em directly from thermochill.co.uk.
Have a look at this thread (note that Marci owns Thermochill - but he's an enthusiast.
Personally, I've always liked that square form factor - much easier to put it in the lower front of a tower case. Not sure it that'll work for your case, though...
As I read up more and more on the tentative things I want to use, the 160 looks more and more promising.

When reading the Cathar/Marci exchange which led to the 160's creation (along with the original 'way-too-long-ducting-shroud'), I learned that Marci is somehow connected to ThermoChill. It is nice to have someone be an enthusiast and work in the industry (and there appears to be no issue with those two as the reviews bear out). Availability of the 160 state-side notwithstanding, I'll likely go with it.

Not sure where I'll mount it yet, though I have no problem putting the 160 outside the back of the case. Once I get the parts, I'll spend some time mocking out different configurations. The hoses will define, to a large degree, where things go.

It is almost certain that the first and, in all likelyhood, the second setup won't be the final one as I muck about with where things go.

The one thing that got me pondering are the discussions re: low/vacuum-level pressures on the inlet side of the pump collapsing the hoses, with the SmartCoils being a solution. In my first attempt (waaaay back in 1999, using SwifTech's stuff) to do water cooling, I had an issue with the hoses kinking over tight bends. I solved the problem by finding metal sprints of the diameter small enough to fit inside the hoses. It was a bit tricky putting them in and they certainly made the hose a lot stiffer, but they completely eliminated the collapsing/kinking problem.
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Unread 09-02-2007, 06:53 AM   #10
bobkoure
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

If you can find springs that fit on the outside of the tubing you're using, that will reduce the tendency to kink as well. The issue with internal springs is that it raises your loop resistance - not that you can't overcome it, but it raises the minimum you can turn your pump down to, so the potential for slightly more noise.
As I remember, coolingworks had plastic external springs. No idea if this is still available or if it ever existed for the OD of whatever tubing you're about to use. Hardware stores are good places to find lots of different springs.
If you have a really tight bend, think about using thin wall copper tubing. Many radiator shops can not only bend this stuff to your spec but can also "bead" the ends, so you can push flexible tubing over the ends.
And then there's just using thick-wall soft silicone tubing, which is slightly worse than thin-wall at damping vibrations, better at stopping through-tubing-evaporation, and basically won't kink unless you try to kink it. The downsides are that it's thick (duh), and comes in dull orange, and, is expensive. BTW, if you're using low restriction blocks, there's pretty much no need to clamp it, particularly if you use 3/8" ID tubing on 1/2" fittings.
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Unread 09-02-2007, 12:55 PM   #11
ulairi
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Re: New setup (sanity check)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
If you can find springs that fit on the outside of the tubing you're using, that will reduce the tendency to kink as well. The issue with internal springs is that it raises your loop resistance - not that you can't overcome it, but it raises the minimum you can turn your pump down to, so the potential for slightly more noise.
As I remember, coolingworks had plastic external springs. No idea if this is still available or if it ever existed for the OD of whatever tubing you're about to use. Hardware stores are good places to find lots of different springs.
If you have a really tight bend, think about using thin wall copper tubing. Many radiator shops can not only bend this stuff to your spec but can also "bead" the ends, so you can push flexible tubing over the ends.
And then there's just using thick-wall soft silicone tubing, which is slightly worse than thin-wall at damping vibrations, better at stopping through-tubing-evaporation, and basically won't kink unless you try to kink it. The downsides are that it's thick (duh), and comes in dull orange, and, is expensive. BTW, if you're using low restriction blocks, there's pretty much no need to clamp it, particularly if you use 3/8" ID tubing on 1/2" fittings.
Hrmm... thinking points.

Color of the tubing is the least of my concerns, though transparency seems like a Good Thing (tm).

While not needing clamps if I use a low-restriction block makes intuitive sense, the pessimist in me wants to anyhow - there does not appear to be all that much of a downside and the added insurance seems worth it.

Do you have any opinion on the Norprene tubing? It seems to be favored highly by Gabe of SwifTech.
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Unread 09-04-2007, 06:49 AM   #12
bobkoure
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

If you're thinking about Tygon, Norprene's a a good alternative.
It seems fine - but I haven't used it long-term anywhere (just looked at samples).
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Unread 09-04-2007, 12:17 PM   #13
billbartuska
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ulairi
Having read the article, it certainly seems that the MCP350 or 355 (Laing DDC1+) and 7/16th or even 3/8th ID tubing + quick connects will do the job just fine.


looks Quite Interesting (tm) as well since it claims to be able to control pump speeds in response to temperature thresholds, plus USB uplink to the machine for software control.


If I want to run multiple loops
I run a BIX3 rad with a 450 CFM high pressure blower, an Ehein 1048 on an AMD FX57 and two 6800GTs. When the room gets to 78*F (25.5*C) I have to take off the overclock (or fire up the Iwaki, but that just makes the room hotter!) when just cruzing the net and doing email...no way benchmarking/gaming!
So I'd think real hard about that PA160 with any kind of fans.

All that T-Ballancer stuff is small bore tubing stuff.

Multiple loops...later. Theres no reason to cool anything other that CPU/GPU, unless it's bling.
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Last edited by billbartuska; 09-04-2007 at 12:28 PM.
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Unread 09-04-2007, 03:57 PM   #14
bobkoure
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

But you're running a Storm? (just reading your list of "stuff").
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Unread 09-05-2007, 09:49 PM   #15
ulairi
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

So. Based on the conversations, advice, and copious amounts of RTFM'ing, things are shaping up in the following way, then:

Pump SwifTech's MCP350 or 355 with Petra's modified top.

Tubing 3/8" throughout, Norprene for 95% of the runs with perhaps some softer silicone stuff around the pumpt for sound isolation

Coolant MCT-5 - not the most efficient coolant out there, but it is a) non-conductive, b) non-corrosive, and c) anti-bacterial. Tasty.

Radiator 2 x PA 160.1's (plumbed in a series, both outside the case, configuration TBD). The PA160 looks like it was made to be stacked on atop the other although the ultra-tight loop between the outlet of one and the inlet of the other will add some restriction to the loop. MCP355 + Petra top should have sufficient head to push through. The video card is what I feel will warrant this level of heat dissipation needs, and the specs say that two PA160's with those spiffy Nexus fans will be quieter than a higher-CFM 2x120mm setup of anything elsem including PA120.2.

FAN Nexus' rebranded Yate-Loon 120mm fans anywhere I need one.

WaterBlocks SwifTech's offerings are, currently, undisputed for both CPU and GPU. Apogee GTX (copper top) for CPU, MCW60 for GPU + passive heatsinks for the RAM.

Misclanea Petra's "be wewwy wewwy quiet" gel for mounting the pump. SwifTech's SmartCoils, worm drive-type hose clamps, ThermalTake's CL-W0033 LCD temp probe.

Now, to wait for the 15th (second paycheck of the month... yay).
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Unread 09-06-2007, 05:22 AM   #16
bobkoure
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

Sounds good - so long as you aren't stacking those PA160s (i.e. not putting them one behind the other airflow-wise).
You may also find that one does just fine. IMHO, the best way to figure that out is to set it up with one, maybe not even mounted in the case - just hung out the back or something - and see how your temps do while gaming. If you're ordering the rads from overseas, you should have no problem selling an "extra" one.
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Unread 09-06-2007, 08:51 AM   #17
billbartuska
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
But you're running a Storm? (just reading your list of "stuff").
Yeah...there's no better block for an AMD single core.

I just don't think any single fan rad can renove enough heat from the OP's setup.
I think even the two PA160s would be iffy.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=77260
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Last edited by billbartuska; 09-06-2007 at 09:04 AM.
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Unread 09-06-2007, 01:29 PM   #18
bobkoure
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

I actually had better luck with the Swiftech 6000 - with the Eheim 1046 and HPPS (not two pumps in the same loop - tried with both).
"Better luck" defined as "could sustain higher overclock using CPU Burn".
I think you're using a 1048, which has a pressure curve like the HPPS. It might be worth trying an Apogee or such-like.
I'm pretty sure the situation would be reversed with something with a bit more pressure, like the DDC - but I haven't tried that setup (Storm and DDC) so I'm just guessing here...
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Unread 09-06-2007, 06:29 PM   #19
billbartuska
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
I actually had better luck with the Swiftech 6000 - with the Eheim 1046 and HPPS (not two pumps in the same loop - tried with both).
"Better luck" defined as "could sustain higher overclock using CPU Burn".
I think you're using a 1048, which has a pressure curve like the HPPS. It might be worth trying an Apogee or such-like.
I'm pretty sure the situation would be reversed with something with a bit more pressure, like the DDC - but I haven't tried that setup (Storm and DDC) so I'm just guessing here...
I have two Swiftech MCW60s on the video cards just for that reason...lower restriction. They cool the cards well, even with big overclocks. And, yes, the storm with the Iwaki cools much better. When I click on the Iwaki I have to fire up the 200 CFM Deltas on the 2 x 120 rad to compensate for the heat dump of the Iwaki...not all the way (rheostat) unless I'm benching. ...that's what the 1048 is for. I run a lot of are through the BIX3 all the time (The blower is much quieter than the Deltas, even with them at 7v and it has more pressure and more CFMs than them at 12v..

So, to answer your question, yes, an agogee on the CPU would probably cool better with the low flow 1048 pump. But nowhere as good as the Storm with the Iwaki pump, which isn't as good as both pumps and both rads together.

Just so we're talking apples to apples here's my loop:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Dual Pumps.jpg (24.4 KB, 11 views)
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MX440 275/332 (@ 350/400) and 3DFX Voodo 5 5500 160/160 (@180/180)
Two Opticals and 120 gigs (w/28gigs in RAID0) on 4 Maxstors

Last edited by billbartuska; 09-06-2007 at 07:11 PM.
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Unread 09-06-2007, 06:49 PM   #20
ulairi
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
Sounds good - so long as you aren't stacking those PA160s (i.e. not putting them one behind the other airflow-wise).
Absolutely not. Dual 160's (if I go for that) would be vertically stacked, with at least 1.5" vertical separation between the two. Either that or I'll make an enclosure atop the case and put them up vertically. I'd have to cut through the case and plumb out that way, but that does not seem like all that huge of an undertaking. As you have suggested, there will be a lot of "How does this look?" type of stuff going on.
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Unread 09-07-2007, 02:08 PM   #21
bobkoure
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

Nice layout Bill.
I messed about with blowers (impellers, actually) for a bit, but could never get them down below 25dB or so.

I've been meaning to get a larger diameter one - like this one

just to see how slowly I can throttle it down to - and how noisy it'd be at that point.
It's not the $14, of course, but the fact that it'd probably end up gathering dust alongside all the other stuff that seemed like such a good idea but that wasn't quiet enough...
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Unread 09-10-2007, 08:08 AM   #22
billbartuska
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

One thing I've noticed. Blower noise specs are ususlly guoted with the blower running in free air...not very realistic. Put them against some presure and they quiet way down.
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Intel SE440BX-3, PIII 550 (@ 680)
MX440 275/332 (@ 350/400) and 3DFX Voodo 5 5500 160/160 (@180/180)
Two Opticals and 120 gigs (w/28gigs in RAID0) on 4 Maxstors
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Unread 10-22-2007, 08:26 PM   #23
ulairi
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Update

Finally got all the pieces together at the house, starting to put them into place.

Didn't get a reservoir, so fill & bleed will likely be... interesting. Might make one (got extra barbs). Was thinking of just modifying a bottle. (Say, Nalgene or something similar).

It is certainly the case that, with the bubbles, even small amounts, there is a sound to the cycling of the coolant through the system.

Ended up going with ThermoChill's PA120.3 and 3 x Nexus fans in "Pull" mode to provide airflow. Due to the size of the setup, the rad will have to hang outside the back of the case. This also means I'll have to get creative with a Dremmel and some carbide cutting bits. Hrmm... wonder if I can get some of those Antec rubber gaskets like the ones they have for the stock tube holes. Fabricating the brackets - now that's a different challenge. Hope I am up to it. We'll see.

The Nexus fans are remarkably quiet. Didn't realize how quiet they are. (Yay and some such).

Using the taps I have, threaded the pre-drilled holes in the PA120's frame to be 6x32, got some 6x32 1.25" flat-head screws at Home Depot, along with some neoprene washers to isolate any and all vibrations. One washer is between the screw and the fan, another between the fan and the radiator's frame, so another trip will be in order for some weather striping to seal those. Plus the fans do not butt up against each other, so that air gap could use a seal, too.

What has been said about the pump vibrating is definately true. Thanks to the advice of bobkoure, got the gel stuff, so that should do wonders.

I'd take pics, but all I have is the phone camera (1.3MP), and they tend to come out looking rather fuzzy. If I get my hands on a decent camera, there shall be pictures.
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Unread 10-23-2007, 04:40 AM   #24
bobkoure
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Default Re: Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by ulairi
Thanks to the advice of bobkoure, got the gel stuff.
I think I forgot to mention - you want hat gel to be sitting on something with some mass (like a block of aluminum) or at least on something that also has a tendency to damp vibration - like a couple of layers of Elemental Design's e-dead (like dynamat II only loads cheaper - about a buck a square foot). You can do that "whenever" - it's just something that'll make the gel work slightly better.
BTW, I put about three layers of that e-dead stuff on the panels of any box I'm putting a pump into. But then, I get annoyed if I can hear a PC I've built at all so that's probably overkill for you. But, yes, it will make a difference if you stick it over the mass-loading stuff that's already on your panels on that 180.

And... welcome to watercooling
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Unread 10-23-2007, 06:06 PM   #25
ulairi
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Default Re: New setup (sanity check)

Dremel XPR 400 + Tungsten Carbide Cutter vs. The back of the case:
Dremel: 0, Case: 1

Time to go get a regular drill and a step drill bit. (Was hoping to put off futher tool shopping until the Christmas bonus time...)

On a separate topic - any suggestions on the fill & bleed procedures? Tricks worth knowing? I figure I'll have to do some tilting and flipping of the whole rig (while the pump is off, of course) to dislodge the large pockets. The small stuff - therein lie the trickier stuff, so any help would be appreciated.
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