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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

View Poll Results: Which water block type would You rather buy?
Danger Den S-TDX 6 7.06%
TDX 9 10.59%
RBX 5 5.88%
Dtek White Water 7 8.24%
Swiftech 5000 1 1.18%
Swiftech 6000 11 12.94%
Polar Flo 4 4.71%
Kool Lance 0 0%
Cascade 14 16.47%
Cascade SS (Solid Silver) 28 32.94%
Maze4 0 0%
Maze3 0 0%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 05-17-2004, 11:01 PM   #26
HAL-9000
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Default Dang thats harsh...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Althornin
BS.
A block has a C/W. This does not change if the processor is at idle putting out 20 watts, or at load putting out 80.

As for your temp story - if you knew anything, you'd know that comparing temps across different mobos is worthless, as well as knowing that comparing WC and air temps is worthless (lack of air movement around the socket with WC), as well as knowing that idle-->load gains you more than 2 degrees. If you honestly believe your proc only got 2 degrees hotter, i have a bridge to sell you...

What you say is true...but dude, you gotta put some sugar coating on top of that criticism or something! We aren't about making people feel bad....ouch!
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Unread 05-18-2004, 01:12 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Althornin
BS.
A block has a C/W. This does not change if the processor is at idle putting out 20 watts, or at load putting out 80.

As for your temp story - if you knew anything, you'd know that comparing temps across different mobos is worthless, as well as knowing that comparing WC and air temps is worthless (lack of air movement around the socket with WC), as well as knowing that idle-->load gains you more than 2 degrees. If you honestly believe your proc only got 2 degrees hotter, i have a bridge to sell you...
oops, we have the exact same setup. point, kronchev.

oops, my temps are more like 3 or 4C increase. what I see displayed might not be the "real" temp, BUT THE CHANGE IS ALL THAT MATTERS.
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Unread 05-18-2004, 10:34 AM   #28
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He is right, actually. A lower thermal resistance means very little at idle, when the wattage is really low. At a higher wattage, like overclocked and at load, let's say, a small thermal resistance difference becomes much, much larger. If processors put out 10 watts, then watercooling would only be ~0.8C (WW with a Procore, medium fan, 0.15C/W) better than aircooling (SLK 900A with a Tornado, 0.23C/W), but at 1000 watts, there's a difference of 80C.
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Unread 05-18-2004, 02:32 PM   #29
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I dont think it realy matters ...From the top block to the bottom block Its just a handfull of degree's deferences in temps
..And At the temp range water cooling is ran in I dont think it makes a defernces in your over clocks and if it does it just a small margin
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Unread 05-18-2004, 11:25 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronchev
oops, we have the exact same setup. point, kronchev.

oops, my temps are more like 3 or 4C increase. what I see displayed might not be the "real" temp, BUT THE CHANGE IS ALL THAT MATTERS.
Oops, you dont get it yet. "different mobos" means DIFFERENT. Not different type, etc, but DIFFERENT. Only the same mobo/proc will give comparable readins - meaning the exact same one. Two abit nf7s will give two different temp readins, even with the same proc.
point, Althornin.

Oops, you lied about your temps. hows that a point for you?

And you are still wrong about the issue at hand anyways. As wattage increases, SO WILL THE DIFFERENCES.
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Unread 05-18-2004, 11:29 PM   #31
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easy up in here guys. Keep it collegial
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Unread 05-18-2004, 11:56 PM   #32
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Here is the S-TDX, Which costs $124.95 each from Danger Den, Now as to whether anyone else will carry It is debatable right now, But the Copper version of course is another matter. Of course the S-TDX is only about 99.996% Pure or Better, But hey It does have some Copper and Yes even some Gold and Other metals too.



http://www.dangerden.com/mall2/more.asp?fmmore=212
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Unread 05-19-2004, 08:54 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Althornin
Oops, you dont get it yet. "different mobos" means DIFFERENT. Not different type, etc, but DIFFERENT. Only the same mobo/proc will give comparable readins - meaning the exact same one. Two abit nf7s will give two different temp readins, even with the same proc.
point, Althornin.

Oops, you lied about your temps. hows that a point for you?

And you are still wrong about the issue at hand anyways. As wattage increases, SO WILL THE DIFFERENCES.
I didnt lie about my temps, I dont see how two motherboards that are the exact same could produce different readings like you claim, at least enought that it matters, and if you honestly dont know that yes, the purpose of watercooling is to keep stable temps with an OC, then I pity you.

Also, might want to go to a doctor, see about getting that tree out of your ass.
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Unread 05-19-2004, 09:21 AM   #34
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I have/had 3 different Abit NF7-S Rev 2.0 boards. Even with the same BIOS, the variation between the 3 was up to 8C depending on the heat load.

Different CPU's also yielded slightly different temperatures at the same speeds/voltage too, with the more overclockable CPU's typically running cooler at the same speed/voltage.
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Unread 05-19-2004, 10:28 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
I have/had 3 different Abit NF7-S Rev 2.0 boards. Even with the same BIOS, the variation between the 3 was up to 8C depending on the heat load.

Different CPU's also yielded slightly different temperatures at the same speeds/voltage too, with the more overclockable CPU's typically running cooler at the same speed/voltage.

see now I can listen to you and accept that about the motherboards. I dont think that mounting procedures were different because i did them all and i have a standard with the way I do it.
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Unread 05-19-2004, 12:36 PM   #36
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my vote:

other (ill vote Cascade SS since that's "close")

Cathar's P2 "Storm" [(rev. G5) in silver (if that happens)]... since im running 2X D4's in series; (1x12v, 1x16v and as soon as i get another 16v "psu"... 2x16v D4's ) an "extremely high pressure drop" is not a problem
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Unread 05-19-2004, 02:45 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronchev
I didnt lie about my temps, I dont see how two motherboards that are the exact same could produce different readings like you claim, at least enought that it matters, and if you honestly dont know that yes, the purpose of watercooling is to keep stable temps with an OC, then I pity you.

Also, might want to go to a doctor, see about getting that tree out of your ass.
I wouldn't have had a "tree up my ass" if you hadnt treated me like a frigging 3 year old in your first (INCORRECT) response to me.

I also love (note the sarcasm) how you treat Cather's word as gospel, and dont even bother to research before you refute what i say. Just because YOU can't "see it" (without even looking, for gods sake) doesnt mean it isnt so.

Watercooling has nothing to do with "stable" temps like you are saying. Its about lower C/W, wich will LEAD to less temp variation between load and idle. However, thats not what i said. I said it was impossible for your difference to be only 2 degrees between load and idle. I'd suggest you learn how to read, and how to learn.
you need a lesson in both.

Note - admitting you were wrong would be a good start.
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Unread 05-19-2004, 10:26 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Althornin
I wouldn't have had a "tree up my ass" if you hadnt treated me like a frigging 3 year old in your first (INCORRECT) response to me.

I also love (note the sarcasm) how you treat Cather's word as gospel, and dont even bother to research before you refute what i say. Just because YOU can't "see it" (without even looking, for gods sake) doesnt mean it isnt so.

Watercooling has nothing to do with "stable" temps like you are saying. Its about lower C/W, wich will LEAD to less temp variation between load and idle. However, thats not what i said. I said it was impossible for your difference to be only 2 degrees between load and idle. I'd suggest you learn how to read, and how to learn.
you need a lesson in both.

Note - admitting you were wrong would be a good start.
I treat Cather's word like gospal because I KNOW he knows what hes talking about. you, youre some dickweed on the internet who got an attitude because someone hes never met was skeptical. also you seem to be not listening: I am telling you what is reported. Did I say "this is right and anything else is wrong wrong wrong youre a big liar!!!" no, I said "this is what it says." I dont expect those temps to be right but I measure in dT not actual temps.
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Unread 05-19-2004, 11:23 PM   #39
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kronchev, Althornin has been delivering it in an unfriendly way but (unless I've misread something he wrote) he's essentially correct (although you may not be lying about your temps, it could just be a misunderstanding).

I'd be more than happy to go over the math with you if you would like. In short form, idle delta-T's must (by laws of thermodynamics) be lower than load delta-T's. If you change CPU wattage, you can get a linear scale of delta-T's with the slope equal to a constant that comes from a particular waterblock and system setup: C/W. So, if the difference between two waterblock dT's is less at load than at idle, the system has changed or the measurement is inaccurate.

dT(idle1) = C/W(1) * Watts(idle)
dT(idle2) = C/W(1) * Watts(idle)
dT(load1) = C/W(1) * Watts(idle)
dT(load2) = C/W(2) * Watts(idle)

dPerformance(idle) = dT(idle1) -dT(idle2)
dPerformance(idle) = Watts(idle) * ( C/W(1) - C/W(2) )
dPerformance(load) = dT(load1) -dT(load2)
dPerformance(load) = Watts(load) * ( C/W(1) - C/W(2) )

Notice that both dPerformance (the difference of temperatures on the idle and load deltaT graphs) points are proportional to the same constant:

constant = C/W(1) - C/W(2)

Call that constant K and rewrite the two equations.
dPerformance(idle) = Watts(idle) * K
dPerformance(load) = Watts(load) * K

So, if Watts(idle) is less than Watts(load) then that gap on the graphs should be greater on the load graph than the idle graph.


Althornin, please grow some tact. It doesn't help matters when you insult people.

Really guys, this board is for adults and I don't want to ban anyone from here. That's just stupid.

Last edited by Brians256; 05-19-2004 at 11:40 PM.
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Unread 05-20-2004, 01:41 PM   #40
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Now as to the Cascade SS

Here is a possible picture of It:



And from What I've read over at Overclockers Australia (Below), It's not the Final step, This link has to do with the Cascade XS too.

http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...ostid=3241475&
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Unread 05-20-2004, 02:27 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoom314
Now as to the Cascade SS

Here is a possible picture of It:



And from What I've read over at Overclockers Australia (Below), It's not the Final step, This link has to do with the Cascade XS too.

http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...ostid=3241475&

that block looks AMAZING. Can you summarize what the other thread says, for those of us who dont have an account?
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Unread 05-20-2004, 02:44 PM   #42
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hmm guess you do need an account there.....worth the time for sure OCAU is a great site

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Unread 05-20-2004, 08:02 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronchev
that block looks AMAZING. Can you summarize what the other thread says, for those of us who dont have an account?

Yeah It does look nice, But from what I've read, It isn't going to happen, So that means the Only Silver Block is the S-TDX or nothing. Silver is real expensive down in Australia as I think It has to be imported from elsewhere.
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Unread 05-20-2004, 08:17 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoom314
Yeah It does look nice, But from what I've read, It isn't going to happen, So that means the Only Silver Block is the S-TDX or nothing. Silver is real expensive down in Australia as I think It has to be imported from elsewhere.
Perhaps some slight confusion here. The Cascade SS's were made, 39 in total in fact. The XS is perhaps what you are referring to in that the XS won't get made. The P2 (codename "storm") is what is my new focus, and that will get made with a silver base (at least one for myself - perhaps more - not sure yet). It won't have a see-thru polycarb top though- it will be black, as in a silver base, black body, and silver (colored) screws and barbs.
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Unread 05-20-2004, 08:21 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Perhaps some slight confusion here. The Cascade SS's were made, 39 in total in fact. The XS is perhaps what you are referring to in that the XS won't get made. The P2 (codename "storm") is what is my new focus, and that will get made with a silver base (at least one for myself - perhaps more - not sure yet). It won't have a see-thru polycarb top though- it will be black, as in a silver base, black body, and silver (colored) screws and barbs.
Ok, I didn't understand.
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Unread 05-20-2004, 10:16 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brians256
Althornin, please grow some tact. It doesn't help matters when you insult people.
.
Agreed.
I apologize for being overly harsh in my FIRST reply to kronchev. My attitude is quite possibly a good part of the reason he was unnaccepting of what i said.

I felt like i was being talked down to, and i really dont like that when the other party is incorrect.

Last edited by Althornin; 05-20-2004 at 10:25 PM.
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Unread 05-20-2004, 11:09 PM   #47
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Damn, a flame fest I wasn't apart of.... I am slacking lately.....

I will backup the bit about the same model of mobo's not reading the same temps etc.. I had 5 Epox 8K7A's and all of them read temps differently with the same parts installed. But the point is moot now. What you want to go for is consistant relative temps but that is still not even close to accurate unless you have an accurate temp probe to calibrate from.

On my Abit KD7 the higher the temp rises the more inaccurate it gets. Once it gets past 42C it starts loosing .5C for every 2C past 42. So if the real temp is 44C it reports as 43.5C or 46C would report as 45C etc.... You can see how this will destroy any hope of usefull information with relative temps from a mobo. You need something to calibrate by. I use a DMM with the thermocoupler mounted under the CPU. Works OK but still not the best....

Bah, time for bed.
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Unread 05-21-2004, 12:02 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Perhaps some slight confusion here. The Cascade SS's were made, 39 in total in fact. The XS is perhaps what you are referring to in that the XS won't get made. The P2 (codename "storm") is what is my new focus, and that will get made with a silver base (at least one for myself - perhaps more - not sure yet). It won't have a see-thru polycarb top though- it will be black, as in a silver base, black body, and silver (colored) screws and barbs.
ok, THAT i have to get one (damn, i have dually, make it two ) of. how much are you estimating?
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Unread 05-21-2004, 12:32 AM   #49
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Default The XS?

Cathar, I am groing curious about this XS block you have been tinkering with. I checked your website as well, and you seem to be hinting at something that at least in the little world of H2O cooling, is big stuff. C'mon, spill the beans!

Also, the thermal C of silver vs. copper is no where near as big a diff as say copper vs. aluminum. Plus, what about tarnishing of the Ag?

BTW, I was surfing waterblock mfg's today and came across a outfit called Silverprop. They make watercooling stuff, and R/C airplanes...strange combo. Anyways, they I think are in Australia as well, just wondering if you knew them in any way.
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Unread 05-21-2004, 12:59 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAL-9000
Cathar, I am groing curious about this XS block you have been tinkering with. I checked your website as well, and you seem to be hinting at something that at least in the little world of H2O cooling, is big stuff. C'mon, spill the beans!

Also, the thermal C of silver vs. copper is no where near as big a diff as say copper vs. aluminum. Plus, what about tarnishing of the Ag?

BTW, I was surfing waterblock mfg's today and came across a outfit called Silverprop. They make watercooling stuff, and R/C airplanes...strange combo. Anyways, they I think are in Australia as well, just wondering if you knew them in any way.
What do you want me to answer that isn't already specified in the OCAU thread that is linked to at my site, or isn't answered in the Procooling thread right here?

Re: Silverprop - yes we have crossed paths many times in the past as we are both in the same city - haven't had anything to do with them for the last 18 months though - people familiar with the history will understand why.
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