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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums. |
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07-17-2004, 03:50 PM | #26 |
CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered"
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
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Hi IMOG
yes, but . . . . . some of the very "best" people (education, experience, etc.) I have met on OCers; they are all gone (but posting elsewhere still) why ? it is not the human resource it was |
07-17-2004, 04:18 PM | #27 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 65
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Hi BillA, been a while, good to see you.
To answer your question: Because they don't like the nature of the internet. When you have a resource as big as OCF, there are going to be these types of questions that people get tired of seeing. I admit that is probably one of the reasons I don't go into any specific forums anymore and just work from the search tool. The "best" people sometimes prefer focused more in-depth information without all of the squabble that comes with it from people who do not know as much as they do. When they relocate to smaller communities, it is not that the people there have more information, it is that the people there are fewer and there is less low-level discussion. This is the nature of the internet. OCF was the same way as smaller forums when it too was their size, but when you get a memberbase as large as it is now a lot more low-level posts will be found. There are pluses and minuses in both situations which are fairly plain to understand. I think you would perhaps be the best person at explaining what makes it better to take greenmans (and others) perspective of chastising members when they ask a question that is basic to us? Why is that better? |
07-17-2004, 04:36 PM | #28 | |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Madison
Posts: 99
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Quote:
Now it seems OC has really faded as a site. "whisper it not in the streets of Ashkelon" |
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07-17-2004, 04:44 PM | #29 |
Big PlayerMaking Big Money
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com
Posts: 4,782
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Procooling is in a good position because we are at a size where the hosting bill is managable and neither Joe nor I care about making any real revenue off the site. That's what dumbed down a lot of similar sites; they had to pay rent.
That's not strictly speaking the case at OCers because I am pretty sure JoeC and Ed run OCers as a hobby but their costs are undoubtedly much higher than ours. I also know that a few years ago OCers didnt have reviews of items like cold cathodes and led fans on the front page.
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07-17-2004, 04:47 PM | #30 |
CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered"
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
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it is the nature of children to ask, and of parents to answer
as the children mature their investigation becomes more self directed (as contrasted with 'spoon feeding') as you doubtless remember, I prefer to answer questions by pointing to the source - one of my 'bitches' about OCers is the difficulty of actually finding a specific item in JoeC's vast compendium and I think that compendium needs editing - another is the ignorance level of those who would contest 'known science', and the mods do protect these 'kids' from direct criticism OCers serves a different market, should I say a more childlike one much as I enjoy some of the fellows there, I seldom even visit |
07-17-2004, 06:01 PM | #31 | |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ohio
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@pH: You are right to say that the founders of OC started the site as a hobby, and that is why they continue to do so also.
@Bill: I agree Bill. We do have a lot of kids (teenagers) at OCF, and it is their nature to ask questions before investigating things themselves. I don't disagree with either of the "-" points you made. If you look at our stats on membership, 1/3 are between 12-18, 1/3 are between 18-24, and the last 1/3 are 24 or above. OCer's serves the hobbyist market. Direct criticism of people is something the mods at OCF discourage - there is a difference though between criticizing the people and criticizing points of discussion or criticizing an argument presented. Where you have had problems in the past, is when "kids" are somewhat ignorant and when you respond, your criticisms occasionally were broader than simply the point at hand, and could be interpreted as expanding to that specific persons quality or character. There is something to keep in mind here - I think there is a matter of differing perspectives - hobbyist or scientist (or should I say pseudo-scientists as it is in most cases – not yours though of course Bill, what you do is top notch, I’m saying on average). In the professional world, all of these forum sites are a joke if you take them seriously though. Sure many of the articles on front pages have some real world value, but hanging out inside the walls and engaging in discussion is a hobby. The people who run these sites, started running them as a hobby. Those of us who frequent them, do so because it is a hobby we enjoy spending time with. This is fun. I think some people lose sight of the fact that this is a hobby. What I'm getting at is that I don't think it is the right of those of us who are founded more deeply in the technical side of things to get frustrated with the hobbyists. That is what the sites are all founded on after all. Shouldn’t a hobby be fun? What do we do... We play with axial fans and consumer heatsinks, liquid cool our computers with hobbyist hardware, and troubleshoot PC problems. I don't see any place within this hobby where it is productive or fun to criticize people, or to become frustrated by low-level questions. Everyone is free to move on if they don't want to participate in a certain level of discussion. Are the mods wrong to discourage criticizing people and making things personal? Thats a judgment call, and I’d say no. My point is that the mods there work to maintain a pleasant atmosphere for everyone who wants to be pleasant and talk about computers, and thats why I like OCF the best. I spend 40 hours a week working with people and computers, and in my spare time, I spend around 15 hours a week on average in this hobby. OCF is a great place to hang out and talk about computers in general with a group of guys you like, and its good at getting answered most any question you have. Following is why I came to OCF, and why I stay: Quote:
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07-17-2004, 06:32 PM | #32 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 414
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Quote:
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07-17-2004, 06:35 PM | #33 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 414
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Quote:
IMOG, I know you disagree, posting for benefit of others: give a man a fish, he eats for a day teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime searching=fishing for knowledge |
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07-17-2004, 06:55 PM | #34 |
Thermophile
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
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Forums seem to have phases that they go through. First they start off small and tight, and generally unknown. Some people post and share ideas, but overall there isn't enough of a critical mass to attract a wide audience of serious minded individuals. This is the embryonic stage of a technical forum, and quite fankly, many simply never move beyond this point. AMDMB.com water-cooling forums would be a good example.
Usually it takes a catalyst of a number of individuals who are actively promoting and pushing the boundaries to draw in other like minded enthusiasts, and here's where a particular forum starts to blossom. Through a high concentration of experienced people, even the noobs get brought up to speed fairly quickly, and overall the general level of "clue" gets raised. This is the golden stage of a technical forum, and is where somewhere like Procooling sits right now. Critical success seems to start an eventual path towards a darker end though. Gradually the forums will gather respect for being a place where people can go to get the right answers . This draws in new members, and the experienced members work hard and almost tirelessly to bring them up to speed. This effect snowballs as new members arrive, and the overall level of clue starts to drop. Eventually the experienced members are left to spend much of their time correcting members, or perhaps even correcting old mistakes that get regurgitated up again and again. This would be the plateau phase, where the influx of new members is pushing the boundaries of the experienced members to maintain the level of clue attained in the golden stage. Nothing much new happens though because everyone seems to be learning/teaching, rather than exploring. After a while, it seems like that this is how all that one's time at a forum is spent, rather than spending time on the hobby that they enjoy, which is learning and expanding and exploring new frontiers and approaches. Eventually it ceases to become fun to repeat oneself again and again. So the experienced members tend to withdraw because nothing much new really happens, it's just a whole bunch of new keen members who need to be brought up to speed, who keep regurgitating the same misconceptions again and again, and the forums are left with mostly acolytes to run the show, and maybe a few experienced die-hards, but overall, not enough to counter the in-rush of clue sucking noobs. Net clue starts to plummet, nothing much new happens. This is the decline stage. This is basically where OCF is at right now. Over time even the acolytes and the die-hards leave, and the forums start to degrade into a set of self-styled know-it-alls who know a lot less than they think, educating noobs who run out and spread misconceptions. This would be the poisonous stage. Quite a number of smaller technical forums seem to make the leap from embryonic to this stage without going through the middle three stages. I won't name names, except to say that my membership was revoked at one such forum because I dared to contradict a self-styled know-it-all who was moderating the forum. OCF is like being a grade 9 teacher at high-school. Sure you can continue to teach and teach, but every few months it seems like everyone is back at grade 9 again and the teaching has to be done all over again. Teachers get paid though... |
07-17-2004, 07:05 PM | #35 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 414
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Very well put, Cathar, couldn't have said it any better myself.
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07-17-2004, 07:11 PM | #36 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 25
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As forum moderation staff there, I would love to answer any questions or constructive criticism you might have for maintaining a forums as large as ours effectively.
Sincerely, SpeeDj
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Staff @ Overclockers.com - OCForums Staff @ [OCG] OverClockedGamerz.com - "How fast can you frag?" "Don't Contemplate Peace... Create it." - SpeeDj 1994 |
07-17-2004, 07:16 PM | #37 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1
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Some background about me for those who do not know me: I am a senior member at the Overclockers Forums. I have been a member since 02/2001 and a senior since 07/2002
I have to agree to some extent with Cathars post. However, if we are at the stage where the hardcore, knowledgable original members have left then I see I have two options. 1) I can accept the fate that surely must come. I can bail out and leave OCF to die. 2) I can do my best to try and reverse the trend. Perhaps it will fail, but at least then, if OCF becomes a smoking ruin I can say that I tried my best, didn't accept the inevitable, and didn't give up. Perhaps this thread is turning into a discussion about OCF more than some guys insane WC screwup . |
07-17-2004, 07:29 PM | #38 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 65
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EDIT: I see other OCers have found this thread, and I'd like to make it clear I didn't "call for backups" or anything. I don't know how they ended up here, but I had nothing to do with their appearance. Didn't want it to appear as though I was getting people to gang in or anything.
*sigh* Teaching people to search can be done with positive or negative reinforcement. Care to guess which works better with people? I didn't come here to squabble, I came because you linked me here and then I felt compelled to share some insight in light of the discussion of OCF. I didn't come here to troll and change the statements my posts make either. Greenman, you have made it clear where you stand and what you intend to listen to. You are only looking at the negatives in my posting, but that is fine - some people are positive people who extract positive elements from situations, other people are negative people and they do opposite. Such is life. In our earlier, friendly PM convos you gave me the fishing analogy. I made it clear then, that if you truly hope to "teach anyone to fish" you need to help and encourage them. Give them a quote or linkage to a good source, and tell them they could have found it through the search function. Or don't post at all. My point was that there is little point in just pompously saying "search" in a thread where someone is obviously just getting started with things. Your posting would have been no problem with me if it wasn't for the fact that you are only doing it to new forum members, people just trying to get started. You weren't treated like that when you came to OC. The difference between what you and Bill do is that Bill isn't trying to teach anyone. He presents his research and experiments and lets people take from it what they can. He presents facts and substance, and leaves it to the individuals to interpret and understand fully. When you make your frank statements of "read" or "search", you hide behind false motivation, claiming that you are helping those members by teaching them. It's just lazy, and to claim that these spam posts contribute anything to any forum is silly. Please don't bother quoteing anything else I have written purely for the sake of "preserving it", I am no troll and stand by what I say. Everyone who knows me around would know that. In fact, there probably isn't much left for me to say. I don't need everyone to rally in approval of what I say, and who everyone believes is right and who is wrong here brings no effect to this situation. Anyways, I believe everyone would appreciate it if I forego further discussion with you and don't drag this into an argument. I'll hold any further comments I may have, unless I see something I find considerably compelling. |
07-17-2004, 07:35 PM | #39 | |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 47
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Quote:
I had a man come in wanting a new processor. He dropped the processor and broke a pin off. He installed it any thinking that pin was just "extra". Guess what, fire. He brought in the motherboard and showed us where there were pins that had burned off into the socket. He actually believe that if he could remove the pins from the socket that a new processor would work fine in the board. I spent 15 minutes trying to convince this guy not to waste his money that it would simply fry the new one. He thought it was a risk he would have to take. WTF? Some people dont really want help, they just want you to tell them what they want to hear. When you do really help them, if its not what they want to hear they will simply ignore you. On a side note, I did get banned from the FS/T section of OCF with no warning. When I asked why I got a response of "pretty much sealed your fate". I don't really care but was really amazed that this guy wouldn't even talk to me. He was a total ass. It was all over me not responding to him withing his timeframe about verifying an item. I always did notice that you were always very nice and helpful Imog, one of the few left there it seems. |
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07-17-2004, 07:35 PM | #40 | |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 65
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Quote:
@infinity: Thanks for the kind words. I give people what they look for because I just enjoy helping people. Ultimately, what the people choose to do from there is up to them. Of course, I like to think that they might be inspired by the help and want to look into things further on their own, but I'm not going to be rude or mean so that they will search because they have to. Last edited by IMOG; 07-17-2004 at 07:41 PM. |
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07-17-2004, 07:37 PM | #41 | |
Thermophile
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
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Quote:
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07-17-2004, 07:44 PM | #42 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 65
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Really Cathar? That's cool, I thought you had moved on actually. I haven't noticed you around much for a while, but admittedly I don't have the presence in the cooling forum which I once had. Honestly, you can only post in those sort of threads so much, and I think that is part of what is challenging for the staff and regular members to keep up with, and get n00bs up to speed.
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07-17-2004, 07:55 PM | #43 |
c00ling p00n
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: L.A.
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Oh the fricken drama! LOL! I pointed to a thread that I thought people here would find, well, amusing, and this turns into a soap opera! Personally I am tired of all the forum drama as of late, we need to stop taking things too seriously. Oy Veys Mir...
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07-17-2004, 09:40 PM | #44 |
Big PlayerMaking Big Money
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Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com
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I was out catching some sun and some beers on the river and missed all this nonsense (assuming it's over with).
Cathar I think this forum will hold pretty steady unless hardforums goes down for good and then we'll pick up a lot of newcomers again. People new to water cooling just don't accidentally come upon procooling and register here; they go to OCers and HOCP and Anandtech instead.
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07-17-2004, 10:24 PM | #45 | |
Put up or Shut Up
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Quote:
I was browsing OCF one day and happened on a thread where a guy asked asked about corrosion with AL and Brass. Well a senior member just happen to reply to the guy saying it was no problem at all an no corrosion would happen. Well I set the guy strait and a less than an hour later my post was edited and I was threatened to be banned. The mods suck there from personal experience. SpeedDJ included as he was the one that threatened to ban me. That and a few other things turned me way away from the forums. I will never post on that site again. |
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07-17-2004, 10:28 PM | #46 |
Thermophile
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Lets hope HOCP never dies.
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07-18-2004, 02:06 AM | #47 | |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 66
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Quote:
My fans started bugging me, and it was time to start playing with water. A couple of hours of Googling and browsing forums and I registered here. Also registered at some other site, but quickly abandoned them. What attracted me here? Well, this place ain't full of bling, and there is some obvious intellectual capital here. The quality of the reviews is better than any I've seen elsewhere, and the wealth of data available in the forums is outstanding. I don't know, maybe I am just an oddball. I view getting told to Google "Log Mean Temerature Difference" as being helpful. It didn't quite answer my question, but pointed me in some of the right directions. I can sure wish the answer to my question was simpler, but I really don't mind doing some research. Of course now that research has spread into 2 textbooks, a bunch of stuff on the web, and lots of home experiments, some of it even related to the subject ! That's the danger and beauty of search engines, lots of tangents to follow. |
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07-18-2004, 02:47 AM | #48 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dunedin NZ
Posts: 735
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The problem with OC forums =
Watercooling (82 viewing) Watercooling stickies (0 viewing) The amounts of threads that get started, when the answers are in the stickies are just ridiculous... Also, the flow argument thread... Graystars stuff is still in it! dont sticky something thats wrong (i believe), and full of big words to sound right; thats just asking for trouble! I'm sincerely glad I stumbled apon this site; having a degree in product design makes for an enquiring mind, so I thought A- i want to watercool B- I'm broke, can't afford it, and C- I dont want to use stuff off the shelf, and i want to learn The answer was to make my own set up, and with the help of the people here, I have made some nice gear, and I'm continuing to make a small amount of money off it and enjoy the research and development of block design. I have sold a small amount of blocks to keep funding my copper and tools so i can keep continuing along this path. Hopefully I can contribute around here when I'm more up with the play, and help out people like myself that came in with an enquiring mind that were willing to learn. My main aim was to spend a similar amount of money as a top end set up, but end up with tools for prototyping (other products, not watercooling ) I had no idea it would be so damn addictive. I think thats the difference; around here, people are willing to research, less willing to buy off the shelf gear, and not looking for that 'instant fix' that was mentioned above. /rant |
07-18-2004, 03:28 AM | #49 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Suffolk, UK
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Cathars right. But what are the mods going to do about it? nothing! thats where the problem is. The situation is reversible.
All it takes is another couple of sections where question asking is banned and we would have all we want. I dont mind noobs posting questions eaven if it is unessicary but what i dont like is the way the mods and admin are allways putting there questions before our discussions. Its so easy to impliment and such a clear cut rule to moderate. it all comes down to the mods getting off there asses and doing something about it. |
07-18-2004, 09:42 AM | #50 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: F L
Posts: 125
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As for the link this threat was originally talking about, LOL . Ay caramba, he is SPLITTING the return from the external Core between the two pumps! -nuff said. .
Greenman100, I am also at UF, glad to hear that another enthusiast roams the campus. As for the topic this thread is now talking about, I enjoy OC Forums as I have learned much from there. I do agree however that the amount of repeated questions is staggering. I myself have posted some stupid ass questions there and am nowadays ashamed, as I have wasted not only others' time but my own time as well (I later found all the info I was in inquiering either in the OC stickies or here.) The idea of having a sort of un-moderated noob question section is great. With such a thread people who DO want to help beginners get up to speed can do so, while more sophisticated questions and discussions can take place in a section that does not have its sophisticated therats seperated from each other by ten pages of "what would you change about this setup" type of threads. SenC. |
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