Go Back   Pro/Forums > ProCooling Technical Discussions > Heatsink/ Heat Pipe / ThermoSiphon Cooling
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar JavaChat Mark Forums Read

Heatsink/ Heat Pipe / ThermoSiphon Cooling The cat will only make the mistake of putting its paw by your HSF once. :) Also the place to discuss the new high end heat pipe goodness.

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 09-17-2002, 10:53 AM   #1
KnightElite
Cooling Savant
 
KnightElite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Posts: 294
Grouding your heatsink = Free MHz

We have quite an interesting thread going over at hardforum about the benefits of grounding your heatsink or waterblock. So far it's been shown to either achieve stability at a previously unstable overclock, sometimes gain a few more MHz FSB stable, and sometimes do nothing. In my case, it got me stable at an overclock that would crash after several hours of running prior to grounding the heatsink.

Here's the complete thread:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread....hreadid=486010
__________________
Can anyone else here say that they have a watercooled monster that's 45" tall?
KnightElite is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-17-2002, 12:47 PM   #2
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

There's a LOT of garbage in there!

To clarify some points:
1-yes, the PSU is grounded to the chassis.

2-No, the alligator clip does not add to the cooling ability of the HSF (at least not significantly).

3-Yes, grounding the HSF will shield the rest of the world from the EMI emitted by the CPU, but it doesn't exclude the possibility that the CPU may be sensitive to EMI.

4-Did anyone think about measuring voltages, or signals between an HSF and ground?

I'm on page 5 now...

5-Water Wetter does not prevent galvanic corrosion, it slows it down, a lot.

6-If you plug your computer in an outlet without a ground, then your computer is not grounded! (which is bad) The white (hot) wire is NOT a ground, but it is connected to it. That third prong is for protection, and to absorb (errant) voltages, as the dude found out (the hard way!).

7-A fan does not produce EMI within a frequency that is likely to affect the CPU, but it is possible.

8-Although a PSU is the biggest EMI generator, it is only so in amplitude, and again, at a specific frequency range.

Pfew... ok I'm done going through all 17 pages (90% garbage BTW).
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-17-2002, 12:48 PM   #3
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

BTW, welcome to ProCooling!
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-17-2002, 03:35 PM   #4
jtroutma
Cooling Savant
 
jtroutma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SLO, CA
Posts: 837
Default

ok BigBen

Can you give us the extreme readers digest version of that site and verify that it is "possible" to achieve a slightly higher OC with grounding out the waterblock/HSF?

BTW thanks for weeding throught the "crap" for us
__________________
Athlon64 X2 4200+ @ 2.5Ghz (250FSB x 10)
OCZ VX 1GB 4000 @ 250FSB (6-2-2-2 timmings)
DFI LANParty nForce4 Ultra-D
SCSI Raid 5 x (3) Cheetah 15K HDDs
LSI Express 500 (128MB cache)
OCZ PowerStream 520W PSU
ATI X850XT PE (Stock)
DTEK WhiteWater + DTEK Custom Radiator
Eheim 1250
jtroutma is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-17-2002, 03:49 PM   #5
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

Ok. In short the idea is to ground your HSF or waterblock to your case, to shield your CPU from EMI (Electro-Magnetic Interference), in order to achieve a better overclock.

IMO, it would be best to bolt a copper wire to the HSF, for good contact.

Either way, it can't hurt, so it's all good.

FYI, results vary, and range from <no change> to <upped by 50MHz>.
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-17-2002, 04:48 PM   #6
Joe
The Pro/Life Support System
 
Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 4,041
Default

Umm what about all the EMI that slams all the trace wires running from the CPU? or the north bridge.

I think its sort of the placebo effect personally. I mean what if when they were dorking with their block/HSF they got a better thermal interface between the block and core? easy 50Mhz. I have heard of this stuff in cars before ( Uber ground your engine = free 50 Hp!... ) and it was as much BS then as I think it is for the CPU's now.

Wrap your head in tin! you can think faster!
__________________
Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing...

ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.
Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-17-2002, 04:57 PM   #7
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

True, but a couple of people reported that when they disconnected the wire (from the new OCd CPU) it would crash.

I don't know. It seems pretty fuzzy, and might fall within error margins.

Like I said, I'd like to see someone hook up an oscilloscope and actually measure the potential difference between the sink and the case.
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-17-2002, 05:25 PM   #8
KnightElite
Cooling Savant
 
KnightElite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Posts: 294
Default

If I had an oscilloscope, I would do it right now. Squeaky1 (the thread starter) is going to make a chart of different peoples results for easy comparison. And I know there are a lot of retarded posts in there, particularly by safemode, but I can't really go around deleting posts just because they're stupid, lol .

Anyway, in my case it did help, and the heatsink was never taken off. All I did was jam a copper 12AWG wire between the fins of my heatsink and attach the other end through a hole in my case.

Thanks for the welcome, btw .
__________________
Can anyone else here say that they have a watercooled monster that's 45" tall?
KnightElite is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-17-2002, 05:39 PM   #9
Joe
The Pro/Life Support System
 
Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 4,041
Default

ahh just noticed your location, you are the guy pH is working with for that thingamabob

I dont buy it still, Placebo, or lies by certain people, or a "ditry" test where some variables changed between the wire on/wire off test.

If you are running a full metal case, with the side on there should be rather little outside EMI.

BTW you are exceeding the max allowed [H]'s per sig.
__________________
Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing...

ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.
Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-17-2002, 06:03 PM   #10
KnightElite
Cooling Savant
 
KnightElite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Posts: 294
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe
ahh just noticed your location, you are the guy pH is working with for that thingamabob

I dont buy it still, Placebo, or lies by certain people, or a "ditry" test where some variables changed between the wire on/wire off test.

If you are running a full metal case, with the side on there should be rather little outside EMI.

BTW you are exceeding the max allowed [H]'s per sig.
Why not just try it out and see if it works? It's relatively easy to do, and it's basically free (how many of us don't have random wires hanging around).

As to the [H]s, I like em where they are . I can of course move them if you really want....
__________________
Can anyone else here say that they have a watercooled monster that's 45" tall?
KnightElite is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-18-2002, 01:58 AM   #11
Can O' Beans
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Pa - USA
Posts: 264
Default

Quote:
If you are running a full metal case, with the side on there should be rather little outside EMI.
BUT... how many users have a BIG window in the side of their case, not to mention the full plexi cases. That also would depend in if this is actually an EMI issue.

It's an interesting read, but I would like to see real world results.

Simple test would be to have a SWITCHED wire connecting the Heatsink to ground. This way you could test the theory WITHOUT touching the Heatsink during the test, and possibly moving it enough to change the thermal interface.

Few other questions:
Would it have anything to do with grounding the actual Silicon on the CPU die? Does this happen with a Peltier setup where the cold plate is NOT electrically connected to the Heatsink/waterblock (i.e. Nylon bolts). Does the phenomenon change when you move other components around/farther away? Are the HS/WB mounting holes in the MB grounded, and if so, and this is true, any heatsink/waterblock mounted with metal bolts would have a natural advantage(if they have proper electrical conductivity to the ground of the motherboard). All could be checked with proper testing.



(and, I beleive it's possible that proper grounding in a car = more HP, but only if you have installed a high end ignition system, and upgraded a lot of things. The factory ground wire is not that thick and might impede the higher-power ignition system(if it's grounded to the chassis). It doesn't add more HP, but actually allows the other components to add the HP they should. The ground cable on my friends car melted down due to it being to small and instalation of better components) But remember, big stickers add 50Hp, thats where the real HP is gained.
Can O' Beans is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-18-2002, 12:35 PM   #12
Brians256
Pro/Staff
 
Brians256's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Klamath Falls, OR
Posts: 1,439
Default

Does this mean that all of us watercoolers are really getting our overclocks because of the grounding? My waterblock is electrically connected to the heatercore by water (with ions it has a good low resistance, doesn't it?) and the heatercore is bolted to the case with another metal to metal connection. Bingo! CPU to case ground connection.

Nothing to do with the good cooling effect of watercooling of course.

P.S. I'm not discounting the possibility that there might be an effect. In science, always believe the data and THEN make/match a theory to match the data. Too many bad scientists try to discount data that doesn't match the current theory/gospel.
Brians256 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-18-2002, 12:42 PM   #13
Joe
The Pro/Life Support System
 
Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 4,041
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Can O' Beans

Few other questions:
Would it have anything to do with grounding the actual Silicon on the CPU die? Does this happen with a Peltier setup where the cold plate is NOT electrically connected to the Heatsink/waterblock (i.e. Nylon bolts). Does the phenomenon change when you move other components around/farther away? Are the HS/WB mounting holes in the MB grounded, and if so, and this is true, any heatsink/waterblock mounted with metal bolts would have a natural advantage(if they have proper electrical conductivity to the ground of the motherboard). All could be checked with proper testing.

(and, I beleive it's possible that proper grounding in a car = more HP, but only if you have installed a high end ignition system, and upgraded a lot of things. The factory ground wire is not that thick and might impede the higher-power ignition system(if it's grounded to the chassis). It doesn't add more HP, but actually allows the other components to add the HP they should. The ground cable on my friends car melted down due to it being to small and instalation of better components) But remember, big stickers add 50Hp, thats where the real HP is gained.
The Thing about grounding the silicon... Umm I doubt it since the silicon is an insulator.

And about the engine, I have seen it fix some sputtering in some old engines, but nothing like 50Hp gain as claimed. Most of the people how I know that I have done the "mod" have claimed "it goes much better now", when 1/4 mile slips and dyno numbers show no increase in power. The placebo effect rocks!
__________________
Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing...

ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.
Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-18-2002, 02:49 PM   #14
Brians256
Pro/Staff
 
Brians256's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Klamath Falls, OR
Posts: 1,439
Default

I'm not arguing that the grounding actually works, but...

Silicon is not an insulator. It is a semiconductor. Plus, at the very fast switching speeds and low voltages, we have measured performance differences at work on whether our chuck tops were voltage biased, connected to ground or left floating. We produce semiconductor testing equipment where you put a fully processed (or not fully processed, as the case might be) silicon wafer onto a metal chuck (flat round surface) for electrical testing.

Now, when I say performance, I don't mean overclocking performance. I'm talking about threshold differences that might mean NOTHING to a CPU chip. These are "performance differences of femto-amps at 110GHz frequency and voltage sweeps. It's the capacitance problem. At high frequencies, capacitance issues degrade the edges of logic signals and filter out high frequency components to analog signals (particularly important to microwave frequency amplifier/processing components).

I'm saying all this because I think the subject is fascinating, not because I think it actually makes a difference. In commercial chip designs, the designers assume a worst case capacitance based upon a normal air-cooled (ungrounded) design. So, there is probably PLENTY of headroom to deal with stuff like that.

Who knows....
Brians256 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-18-2002, 07:19 PM   #15
KnightElite
Cooling Savant
 
KnightElite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Posts: 294
Default

I find it quite interesting too. But the fact that for some people, it can instantly cause a BSOD when disconnected makes it seem to me like it has some merit. I talked to Outcast from www.monster-hardware.com and he told me he's getting someone to do a review on whether this works or not.
__________________
Can anyone else here say that they have a watercooled monster that's 45" tall?
KnightElite is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-22-2002, 12:10 AM   #16
Can O' Beans
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Pa - USA
Posts: 264
Default

Well, I think my switch idea above should work at least in part to figure this out. You can immediately switch it between grounded & ungrounded without interfering the heatsink/block itself.
Can O' Beans is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-22-2002, 12:38 AM   #17
KnightElite
Cooling Savant
 
KnightElite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Posts: 294
Default

Yah, give it a try for sure, and tell me how it goes. Someone tried it on his Duron and gained 60MHz.
__________________
Can anyone else here say that they have a watercooled monster that's 45" tall?
KnightElite is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-22-2002, 02:24 AM   #18
beav
Cooling Neophyte
 
beav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Danville
Posts: 96
Default

Well...i can verify that Apple's ground their heatsinks. The clips touch grounding pads on my GPU module, which are inturn grounded to the case.
__________________
What a chump.
beav is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-20-2002, 11:40 AM   #19
Yo-DUH_87
Cooling Savant
 
Yo-DUH_87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Oregon, USA
Posts: 230
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Brians256
Silicon is not an insulator. It is a semiconductor.
Not to join into the fray, but silicon in it's purest form is a insulitor, it is only when you add impuritys that it begins to conduct...

As for the grounded HS idea, I should try it, if I can get the extra overclock, why not?
__________________
Signing out...
Yo-DUH_87

If it works, fix it until it's broke!
Then, after it's broke, add duct tape!

Affordable webhosting!
Yo-DUH_87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-20-2002, 02:50 PM   #20
MeltMan
Cooling Savant
 
MeltMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: KS
Posts: 374
Default

oscilloscope? Gimme a few minutes to run the wires

BTW, I am dead serious, I picked up a free 1mhz o-scope in perfect working order, and I did NOT steal it. Still dont have too much of a clue what im doing with it, but I'll expand the interference to see whats going on...

Back in five.
__________________
MeltMan
Lurker Supreme!
MeltMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-20-2002, 03:59 PM   #21
MeltMan
Cooling Savant
 
MeltMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: KS
Posts: 374
Default

Best pic, but expanded too far not showing the second smaller "pulse"
Attached Images
File Type: jpg p1010321.jpg (42.7 KB, 253 views)
__________________
MeltMan
Lurker Supreme!
MeltMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-20-2002, 03:59 PM   #22
MeltMan
Cooling Savant
 
MeltMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: KS
Posts: 374
Default

With second pulse visible. Damn its hard to take pics of my scope and have them come out clear.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg p1010322.jpg (59.0 KB, 247 views)
__________________
MeltMan
Lurker Supreme!

Last edited by MeltMan; 10-20-2002 at 04:06 PM.
MeltMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-20-2002, 04:01 PM   #23
MeltMan
Cooling Savant
 
MeltMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: KS
Posts: 374
Default

There you have it. There IS some funky EMI picked up by my scope. The scope dropped to nothing when disconnected and the probe was shielded, so there wasnt any emi picked up by the wires. I tested with voltage increased, and frequency increased but noticed a VERY slight increase in EMI noise. When fan was unplugged, no change, still EMI. All tests performed on a stock Duron 1000 @ 1000 with a crappy aluminum HSF.


MTB increased to .5 us. You can now see the repeating pattern.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg p1010324.jpg (56.8 KB, 237 views)
__________________
MeltMan
Lurker Supreme!

Last edited by MeltMan; 10-20-2002 at 04:07 PM.
MeltMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-20-2002, 07:33 PM   #24
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

Errr... OK, so what's the frequency of the interference?

Very nice work!
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-21-2002, 08:30 AM   #25
MeltMan
Cooling Savant
 
MeltMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: KS
Posts: 374
Default

Derrr... I dunno. The sampling period for the top 2 pictures was 50ns. Maybe you divide to find the actual frequency. Like I said, I got this thing, and dont know how to use it yet. I forgot to note, with a ground, there was hardly any difference in the signals. They decreased slightly, but nothing significant. They people getting big gains from this must have tons of EMI. Also note, my computer was not in its case, it was laying on an anti static bag on the floor and the ground was tied directly to the psu unit. Perhaps this makes a difference?
__________________
MeltMan
Lurker Supreme!
MeltMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(C) 2005 ProCooling.com
If we in some way offend you, insult you or your people, screw your mom, beat up your dad, or poop on your porch... we're sorry... we were probably really drunk...
Oh and dont steal our content bitches! Don't give us a reason to pee in your open car window this summer...