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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 07-17-2004, 04:50 PM   #26
BillA
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Hi IMOG
yes, but . . . . .
some of the very "best" people (education, experience, etc.) I have met on OCers; they are all gone (but posting elsewhere still)
why ?

it is not the human resource it was
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Unread 07-17-2004, 05:18 PM   #27
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Hi BillA, been a while, good to see you.

To answer your question:

Because they don't like the nature of the internet.

When you have a resource as big as OCF, there are going to be these types of questions that people get tired of seeing. I admit that is probably one of the reasons I don't go into any specific forums anymore and just work from the search tool.

The "best" people sometimes prefer focused more in-depth information without all of the squabble that comes with it from people who do not know as much as they do.

When they relocate to smaller communities, it is not that the people there have more information, it is that the people there are fewer and there is less low-level discussion.

This is the nature of the internet. OCF was the same way as smaller forums when it too was their size, but when you get a memberbase as large as it is now a lot more low-level posts will be found.

There are pluses and minuses in both situations which are fairly plain to understand.

I think you would perhaps be the best person at explaining what makes it better to take greenmans (and others) perspective of chastising members when they ask a question that is basic to us? Why is that better?
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Unread 07-17-2004, 05:36 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG
Make sure you don't focus on any one part. The totality of that explanation needs to be considered in order to take from it what was intended.

As for what pHaestus said, I meant he recognized that there are knowledgeable, insightful people. I meant that I think we need more members willing to dig that information up. I realize pH was trying to highlight the fact that the people at this forum may not get a fair representation of OCF just from the links that are presented here.
Well, I'd be interested in Bill's opinion. I trolled OC since at least 2000 and always felt too dumb to contribute. I'd overclocked sure, but as an engineer, I wanted stability, not speed.

Now it seems OC has really faded as a site. "whisper it not in the streets of Ashkelon"
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Unread 07-17-2004, 05:44 PM   #29
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Procooling is in a good position because we are at a size where the hosting bill is managable and neither Joe nor I care about making any real revenue off the site. That's what dumbed down a lot of similar sites; they had to pay rent.

That's not strictly speaking the case at OCers because I am pretty sure JoeC and Ed run OCers as a hobby but their costs are undoubtedly much higher than ours. I also know that a few years ago OCers didnt have reviews of items like cold cathodes and led fans on the front page.
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Unread 07-17-2004, 05:47 PM   #30
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it is the nature of children to ask, and of parents to answer
as the children mature their investigation becomes more self directed (as contrasted with 'spoon feeding')

as you doubtless remember, I prefer to answer questions by pointing to the source
- one of my 'bitches' about OCers is the difficulty of actually finding a specific item in JoeC's vast compendium
and I think that compendium needs editing
- another is the ignorance level of those who would contest 'known science', and the mods do protect these 'kids' from direct criticism

OCers serves a different market, should I say a more childlike one
much as I enjoy some of the fellows there, I seldom even visit
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Unread 07-17-2004, 07:01 PM   #31
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@pH: You are right to say that the founders of OC started the site as a hobby, and that is why they continue to do so also.

@Bill: I agree Bill. We do have a lot of kids (teenagers) at OCF, and it is their nature to ask questions before investigating things themselves. I don't disagree with either of the "-" points you made. If you look at our stats on membership, 1/3 are between 12-18, 1/3 are between 18-24, and the last 1/3 are 24 or above. OCer's serves the hobbyist market.

Direct criticism of people is something the mods at OCF discourage - there is a difference though between criticizing the people and criticizing points of discussion or criticizing an argument presented. Where you have had problems in the past, is when "kids" are somewhat ignorant and when you respond, your criticisms occasionally were broader than simply the point at hand, and could be interpreted as expanding to that specific persons quality or character.

There is something to keep in mind here - I think there is a matter of differing perspectives - hobbyist or scientist (or should I say pseudo-scientists as it is in most cases – not yours though of course Bill, what you do is top notch, I’m saying on average). In the professional world, all of these forum sites are a joke if you take them seriously though. Sure many of the articles on front pages have some real world value, but hanging out inside the walls and engaging in discussion is a hobby. The people who run these sites, started running them as a hobby. Those of us who frequent them, do so because it is a hobby we enjoy spending time with. This is fun.

I think some people lose sight of the fact that this is a hobby. What I'm getting at is that I don't think it is the right of those of us who are founded more deeply in the technical side of things to get frustrated with the hobbyists. That is what the sites are all founded on after all.

Shouldn’t a hobby be fun?

What do we do... We play with axial fans and consumer heatsinks, liquid cool our computers with hobbyist hardware, and troubleshoot PC problems. I don't see any place within this hobby where it is productive or fun to criticize people, or to become frustrated by low-level questions. Everyone is free to move on if they don't want to participate in a certain level of discussion.

Are the mods wrong to discourage criticizing people and making things personal? Thats a judgment call, and I’d say no.

My point is that the mods there work to maintain a pleasant atmosphere for everyone who wants to be pleasant and talk about computers, and thats why I like OCF the best. I spend 40 hours a week working with people and computers, and in my spare time, I spend around 15 hours a week on average in this hobby. OCF is a great place to hang out and talk about computers in general with a group of guys you like, and its good at getting answered most any question you have.

Following is why I came to OCF, and why I stay:

Quote:
WHAT IS OVERCLOCKERS.COM?

We are a team. We are a community. We are a fellowship made strong by mutual respect and shared dedication to the task of enriching all who come here. We are respectable, for we share our bounty. We will endure, for we continue to grow. We will continue to grow as long as those who come to us find what they need for their own betterment, and the betterment of those who follow after them.

Joe Citarella, Skip MacWilliam and Ed Stroligo.
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Unread 07-17-2004, 07:32 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG
To point a finger at the moderators at OCF as though it is their fault is ridiculous and seriously unfair for the work they have on their shoulders there. You know where the fault lies?

It's the fault of posting in the way which Greenman100, squeakygeek, and thorilan have posted. "REad and search". And that is all they offer. And its not just them, there are others also. How does this improve the level of knowledge around the forum? Very slowly, if at all.

Instead of lazy b@st@rds telling people to search for their answers, we need knowledgeable, friendly, helpful people who will take the 30 seconds to pull a quote and a link to the information that is needed - everything you need to know is right there, and those of us who have been around know how to find it already, unlike the n00bs. All that needs to be done is connecting the people with the information, but some people are too lazy to help. pHaestus just said this himself greenman, and I just told you the same through PM - what is stopping you from taking this advice from those of us who have been around the block for a while?

As a senior member there

They'd rather bluntly say "Read, Search, then post", than be an active positive contributor to the forum. This sort of attitude is the problem I see at the cooling forums at OCF.
quoted to keep personal attack from being edited
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Unread 07-17-2004, 07:35 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG
EDIT: It has come to my attention that members like Greenman believe that they are "teaching members" by "helping" in the way which they post. In all fairness, I thought I would share that in light of what I said about that sort of posting above. If they want to teach, should they not be encourageing?

I do not see kids learning arithmetic from teachers who say "read the book stupid", it is all there. If we are to teach members, we must offer helpful guidance in getting to the knowledge. If all we needed was information, why are there so many teachers in the world?

A good teacher will connect his students with the right information in the quickest way possible.
teachers are paid to "spoonfeed", we are not

IMOG, I know you disagree, posting for benefit of others:

give a man a fish, he eats for a day
teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime

searching=fishing for knowledge
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Unread 07-17-2004, 07:55 PM   #34
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Forums seem to have phases that they go through. First they start off small and tight, and generally unknown. Some people post and share ideas, but overall there isn't enough of a critical mass to attract a wide audience of serious minded individuals. This is the embryonic stage of a technical forum, and quite fankly, many simply never move beyond this point. AMDMB.com water-cooling forums would be a good example.

Usually it takes a catalyst of a number of individuals who are actively promoting and pushing the boundaries to draw in other like minded enthusiasts, and here's where a particular forum starts to blossom. Through a high concentration of experienced people, even the noobs get brought up to speed fairly quickly, and overall the general level of "clue" gets raised. This is the golden stage of a technical forum, and is where somewhere like Procooling sits right now.

Critical success seems to start an eventual path towards a darker end though. Gradually the forums will gather respect for being a place where people can go to get the right answers . This draws in new members, and the experienced members work hard and almost tirelessly to bring them up to speed. This effect snowballs as new members arrive, and the overall level of clue starts to drop. Eventually the experienced members are left to spend much of their time correcting members, or perhaps even correcting old mistakes that get regurgitated up again and again. This would be the plateau phase, where the influx of new members is pushing the boundaries of the experienced members to maintain the level of clue attained in the golden stage. Nothing much new happens though because everyone seems to be learning/teaching, rather than exploring.

After a while, it seems like that this is how all that one's time at a forum is spent, rather than spending time on the hobby that they enjoy, which is learning and expanding and exploring new frontiers and approaches. Eventually it ceases to become fun to repeat oneself again and again. So the experienced members tend to withdraw because nothing much new really happens, it's just a whole bunch of new keen members who need to be brought up to speed, who keep regurgitating the same misconceptions again and again, and the forums are left with mostly acolytes to run the show, and maybe a few experienced die-hards, but overall, not enough to counter the in-rush of clue sucking noobs. Net clue starts to plummet, nothing much new happens. This is the decline stage. This is basically where OCF is at right now.

Over time even the acolytes and the die-hards leave, and the forums start to degrade into a set of self-styled know-it-alls who know a lot less than they think, educating noobs who run out and spread misconceptions. This would be the poisonous stage. Quite a number of smaller technical forums seem to make the leap from embryonic to this stage without going through the middle three stages. I won't name names, except to say that my membership was revoked at one such forum because I dared to contradict a self-styled know-it-all who was moderating the forum.

OCF is like being a grade 9 teacher at high-school. Sure you can continue to teach and teach, but every few months it seems like everyone is back at grade 9 again and the teaching has to be done all over again. Teachers get paid though...
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Unread 07-17-2004, 08:05 PM   #35
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Very well put, Cathar, couldn't have said it any better myself.
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Unread 07-17-2004, 08:11 PM   #36
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As forum moderation staff there, I would love to answer any questions or constructive criticism you might have for maintaining a forums as large as ours effectively.

Sincerely, SpeeDj
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Unread 07-17-2004, 08:16 PM   #37
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Some background about me for those who do not know me: I am a senior member at the Overclockers Forums. I have been a member since 02/2001 and a senior since 07/2002

I have to agree to some extent with Cathars post.

However, if we are at the stage where the hardcore, knowledgable original members have left then I see I have two options.

1) I can accept the fate that surely must come. I can bail out and leave OCF to die.

2) I can do my best to try and reverse the trend. Perhaps it will fail, but at least then, if OCF becomes a smoking ruin I can say that I tried my best, didn't accept the inevitable, and didn't give up.

Perhaps this thread is turning into a discussion about OCF more than some guys insane WC screwup .
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Unread 07-17-2004, 08:29 PM   #38
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EDIT: I see other OCers have found this thread, and I'd like to make it clear I didn't "call for backups" or anything. I don't know how they ended up here, but I had nothing to do with their appearance. Didn't want it to appear as though I was getting people to gang in or anything.

*sigh*

Teaching people to search can be done with positive or negative reinforcement. Care to guess which works better with people?

I didn't come here to squabble, I came because you linked me here and then I felt compelled to share some insight in light of the discussion of OCF. I didn't come here to troll and change the statements my posts make either. Greenman, you have made it clear where you stand and what you intend to listen to. You are only looking at the negatives in my posting, but that is fine - some people are positive people who extract positive elements from situations, other people are negative people and they do opposite. Such is life.

In our earlier, friendly PM convos you gave me the fishing analogy. I made it clear then, that if you truly hope to "teach anyone to fish" you need to help and encourage them. Give them a quote or linkage to a good source, and tell them they could have found it through the search function. Or don't post at all. My point was that there is little point in just pompously saying "search" in a thread where someone is obviously just getting started with things.

Your posting would have been no problem with me if it wasn't for the fact that you are only doing it to new forum members, people just trying to get started. You weren't treated like that when you came to OC.

The difference between what you and Bill do is that Bill isn't trying to teach anyone. He presents his research and experiments and lets people take from it what they can. He presents facts and substance, and leaves it to the individuals to interpret and understand fully. When you make your frank statements of "read" or "search", you hide behind false motivation, claiming that you are helping those members by teaching them. It's just lazy, and to claim that these spam posts contribute anything to any forum is silly.

Please don't bother quoteing anything else I have written purely for the sake of "preserving it", I am no troll and stand by what I say. Everyone who knows me around would know that.

In fact, there probably isn't much left for me to say. I don't need everyone to rally in approval of what I say, and who everyone believes is right and who is wrong here brings no effect to this situation. Anyways, I believe everyone would appreciate it if I forego further discussion with you and don't drag this into an argument.

I'll hold any further comments I may have, unless I see something I find considerably compelling.
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Unread 07-17-2004, 08:35 PM   #39
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Quote:
A good teacher will connect his students with the right information in the quickest way possible.
That's your opinion. I think people don't appreciate what they learn until they actually work for it. There are plenty of mindless clones running around. To actually spend the time to learn about something means you care about it. People that just want quick answers are looking for immediate satisfaction. Why spend the time when they aren't going to listen. Here's an example...

I had a man come in wanting a new processor. He dropped the processor and broke a pin off. He installed it any thinking that pin was just "extra". Guess what, fire. He brought in the motherboard and showed us where there were pins that had burned off into the socket. He actually believe that if he could remove the pins from the socket that a new processor would work fine in the board. I spent 15 minutes trying to convince this guy not to waste his money that it would simply fry the new one. He thought it was a risk he would have to take. WTF? Some people dont really want help, they just want you to tell them what they want to hear. When you do really help them, if its not what they want to hear they will simply ignore you.

On a side note, I did get banned from the FS/T section of OCF with no warning. When I asked why I got a response of "pretty much sealed your fate". I don't really care but was really amazed that this guy wouldn't even talk to me. He was a total ass. It was all over me not responding to him withing his timeframe about verifying an item. I always did notice that you were always very nice and helpful Imog, one of the few left there it seems.
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Unread 07-17-2004, 08:35 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [OC]David
I have to agree to some extent with Cathars post.

However, if we are at the stage where the hardcore, knowledgable original members have left then I see I have two options.

1) I can accept the fate that surely must come. I can bail out and leave OCF to die.

2) I can do my best to try and reverse the trend. Perhaps it will fail, but at least then, if OCF becomes a smoking ruin I can say that I tried my best, didn't accept the inevitable, and didn't give up.

Perhaps this thread is turning into a discussion about OCF more than some guys insane WC screwup .
I stand in the same situation David and think the same.

@infinity: Thanks for the kind words. I give people what they look for because I just enjoy helping people. Ultimately, what the people choose to do from there is up to them. Of course, I like to think that they might be inspired by the help and want to look into things further on their own, but I'm not going to be rude or mean so that they will search because they have to.

Last edited by IMOG; 07-17-2004 at 08:41 PM.
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Unread 07-17-2004, 08:37 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG
I stand in the same situation David and think the same.
I think, for my part, you'll find that I do post at OC.com somewhat regularly, but I do admit it's mostly to help people above the general rung of "I have a pump and some tubing, now what do I do?" kind of posts.
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Unread 07-17-2004, 08:44 PM   #42
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Really Cathar? That's cool, I thought you had moved on actually. I haven't noticed you around much for a while, but admittedly I don't have the presence in the cooling forum which I once had. Honestly, you can only post in those sort of threads so much, and I think that is part of what is challenging for the staff and regular members to keep up with, and get n00bs up to speed.
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Unread 07-17-2004, 08:55 PM   #43
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Oh the fricken drama! LOL! I pointed to a thread that I thought people here would find, well, amusing, and this turns into a soap opera! Personally I am tired of all the forum drama as of late, we need to stop taking things too seriously. Oy Veys Mir...
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Unread 07-17-2004, 10:40 PM   #44
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I was out catching some sun and some beers on the river and missed all this nonsense (assuming it's over with).

Cathar I think this forum will hold pretty steady unless hardforums goes down for good and then we'll pick up a lot of newcomers again. People new to water cooling just don't accidentally come upon procooling and register here; they go to OCers and HOCP and Anandtech instead.
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Unread 07-17-2004, 11:24 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
I was out catching some sun and some beers on the river and missed all this nonsense (assuming it's over with).
I went fishing all day and just got home to find I missed out to. probably a good thing though. I am now way to tired to get into it.

I was browsing OCF one day and happened on a thread where a guy asked asked about corrosion with AL and Brass. Well a senior member just happen to reply to the guy saying it was no problem at all an no corrosion would happen. Well I set the guy strait and a less than an hour later my post was edited and I was threatened to be banned. The mods suck there from personal experience. SpeedDJ included as he was the one that threatened to ban me. That and a few other things turned me way away from the forums.

I will never post on that site again.
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Unread 07-17-2004, 11:28 PM   #46
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Lets hope HOCP never dies.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 03:06 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
People new to water cooling just don't accidentally come upon procooling and register here; they go to OCers and HOCP and Anandtech instead.
Neato, I am an exception to pHaestus' paradigm!

My fans started bugging me, and it was time to start playing with water. A couple of hours of Googling and browsing forums and I registered here. Also registered at some other site, but quickly abandoned them.

What attracted me here? Well, this place ain't full of bling, and there is some obvious intellectual capital here. The quality of the reviews is better than any I've seen elsewhere, and the wealth of data available in the forums is outstanding.

I don't know, maybe I am just an oddball. I view getting told to Google "Log Mean Temerature Difference" as being helpful. It didn't quite answer my question, but pointed me in some of the right directions. I can sure wish the answer to my question was simpler, but I really don't mind doing some research. Of course now that research has spread into 2 textbooks, a bunch of stuff on the web, and lots of home experiments, some of it even related to the subject ! That's the danger and beauty of search engines, lots of tangents to follow.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 03:47 AM   #48
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The problem with OC forums =

Watercooling (82 viewing)
Watercooling stickies (0 viewing)

The amounts of threads that get started, when the answers are in the stickies are just ridiculous...

Also, the flow argument thread... Graystars stuff is still in it! dont sticky something thats wrong (i believe), and full of big words to sound right; thats just asking for trouble!

I'm sincerely glad I stumbled apon this site; having a degree in product design makes for an enquiring mind, so I thought

A- i want to watercool
B- I'm broke, can't afford it, and
C- I dont want to use stuff off the shelf, and i want to learn

The answer was to make my own set up, and with the help of the people here, I have made some nice gear, and I'm continuing to make a small amount of money off it and enjoy the research and development of block design. I have sold a small amount of blocks to keep funding my copper and tools so i can keep continuing along this path. Hopefully I can contribute around here when I'm more up with the play, and help out people like myself that came in with an enquiring mind that were willing to learn. My main aim was to spend a similar amount of money as a top end set up, but end up with tools for prototyping (other products, not watercooling )

I had no idea it would be so damn addictive.

I think thats the difference; around here, people are willing to research, less willing to buy off the shelf gear, and not looking for that 'instant fix' that was mentioned above.

/rant
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Unread 07-18-2004, 04:28 AM   #49
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Cathars right. But what are the mods going to do about it? nothing! thats where the problem is. The situation is reversible.

All it takes is another couple of sections where question asking is banned and we would have all we want. I dont mind noobs posting questions eaven if it is unessicary but what i dont like is the way the mods and admin are allways putting there questions before our discussions. Its so easy to impliment and such a clear cut rule to moderate. it all comes down to the mods getting off there asses and doing something about it.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 10:42 AM   #50
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As for the link this threat was originally talking about, LOL . Ay caramba, he is SPLITTING the return from the external Core between the two pumps! -nuff said. .

Greenman100,
I am also at UF, glad to hear that another enthusiast roams the campus.

As for the topic this thread is now talking about,
I enjoy OC Forums as I have learned much from there. I do agree however that the amount of repeated questions is staggering. I myself have posted some stupid ass questions there and am nowadays ashamed, as I have wasted not only others' time but my own time as well (I later found all the info I was in inquiering either in the OC stickies or here.)

The idea of having a sort of un-moderated noob question section is great. With such a thread people who DO want to help beginners get up to speed can do so, while more sophisticated questions and discussions can take place in a section that does not have its sophisticated therats seperated from each other by ten pages of "what would you change about this setup" type of threads.

SenC.
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If we in some way offend you, insult you or your people, screw your mom, beat up your dad, or poop on your porch... we're sorry... we were probably really drunk...
Oh and dont steal our content bitches! Don't give us a reason to pee in your open car window this summer...