Go Back   Pro/Forums > ProCooling Technical Discussions > General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar JavaChat Mark Forums Read

General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 07-19-2004, 12:50 PM   #151
IMOG
Cooling Neophyte
 
IMOG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 65
Default

Yeah, I checked out the thread and figured out which one was you. I believe that would be admin-only territory, so I will send off a PM about getting that information to you.

Is your prerferred addy the MSN one listed in your profile? (this may be used to send you your login info if that is how they choose to handle it, otherwise it will be used for general contact to discuss how to get you back on the forums)

BTW, I'm curious - I was under the impression that the search function at OCF wasn't working for members who were not logged in (it always returns 0 results). How in the world did you dig up that old thread?

Also, PM has been sent to Newbie_Doo, but he hasn't been on the forums AFAIK since the 14th, so this may not be a quick solution, though it is the best option available.

Last edited by IMOG; 07-19-2004 at 01:01 PM.
IMOG is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2004, 12:57 PM   #152
jaydee
Put up or Shut Up
 
jaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,506
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG
Yeah, I checked out the thread and figured out which one was you. I believe that would be admin-only territory, so I will send off a PM about getting that information to you.

Is your prerferred addy the MSN one listed in your profile? (this may be used to send you your login info if that is how they choose to handle it, otherwise it will be used for general contact to discuss how to get you back on the forums)
Oh hell, I forgot about that already. I had a big argument about them banning MSN e-mail addy's. I know the addy now. Not sure if it is still banned or not. I went ayear without broadband because it wasn;t available and I used MSN as my ISP and for whatever reason they decided hotmail is no good. Well MSN uses hotmail as their official ISP e-mail service. I think they bought them out of I remember. I will see if that addy will return a password.
jaydee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2004, 01:02 PM   #153
jaydee
Put up or Shut Up
 
jaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,506
Default

Well that was my jaydee116 screen name. That is better yet. I got a new password.
jaydee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2004, 07:00 PM   #154
SpeeDj
Cooling Neophyte
 
SpeeDj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 25
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee116
What are the odds of getting my login info for OCF? Or at least the e-mail addy I used so I can use the lost password deal? CustomCooledPC was the sceen name?
High, all you have to do is drop me a line I will do it for you, and I really don't think it was me that threatened to ban you as I stay far away from cooling as networking, gaming, os's are more my experience that and SMP. Just let me know I will get it back for you. K ? I'll even change it to your current e-mail provided it's not hotmail. If have multiple accounts at OCF I can combine them to one account as well Jaydee, in reading that thread, it looks like you got caught in the chad crosshairs.

J
__________________
Staff @ Overclockers.com - OCForums
Staff @ [OCG] OverClockedGamerz.com - "How fast can you frag?"

"Don't Contemplate Peace... Create it." - SpeeDj 1994
SpeeDj is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2004, 07:35 PM   #155
Stang_Man
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Plainville, CT
Posts: 79
Default

i missed this whole discussion.. but from what i'm reading, i've got a few things to say.

we're all newbs, to one thing or another. I am a pro at some things I do, and a newbie at other things I do. I've done LN2/Dry Ice cooling before I've even done watercooling. Hell, I've played with phase change longer than I've had with a plain watercooling, and TEC's more than that. I am not a pro-know-it-all overclocker, yet I was the first to bring an AXP-M to 3GHz, and currently hold a record AXP air-cooled 3dmark score. I review products, and write articles for FastLaneHW.com. I do not know everything, but when I don't know something, I'll try my best to listen to what someone else has to say and I'll do my research.

right now, I'm debating with others on the negative points of having raw aluminum in a closed watercooling loop with other metals. I myself, haven't experience anything major of having raw aluminum + water + different metals, yet others have. I'm experimenting many different things right now to see what is true, and how I could do that.

people are telling me to nickel plate aluminum, yet in my experiences and what my colleagues tell me, is to stay away from nickel + aluminum, as anodizing is the ONLY real way to protect aluminum. i'm researching the pros/cons of each solution right now, and deciding what is best for me.

Look at what has happened to XtremeSystems.org. of what once was, an INCREDIBLE user base of highly skilled overclockers/tweakers, is now overrun by newbs. constant linking and forwarding to the site has had a huge infilitration of newbs wanting to win olympic sprints before they know how to crawl. and it's annoying, because i know, i just didn't ask a million different questions in a million different threads. I spent a whole 6 months researching products before i built my first computer! after that i spent a whole nother 6 months before i even raised my FSB speed a single MHz. I've been doing this since Dec 2001, and it's slowed down a lot, because of the amount of people that don't want to do what i've been doing. i've been starting to loose interest in computers because there is nothing really "new". finding forums like Procooling and what XS once was, are hard to come by nowadays, and I worry, because for someone who wants to stick with it like myself, it's becoming harder and harder by the day.
Stang_Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2004, 07:46 PM   #156
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default

SMan
you have touched on a point central to this whole noob aspect (which we all start as, agreed)

-> what to do when something incorrect is posted ?
and how to deal with a misplaced belief system that causes the poster to resist 'new' info contradicting their cherished pet theory ?
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2004, 08:08 PM   #157
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etacovda
Actually, i deliberately goaded Jaydee in one of my first posts, just to break the ice, so to speak His custom title says it all.

I came here a complete newbie, but I've learnt from it;

If it wasnt for Bigben2k then i probably wouldnt have learnt nearly as much as i have, as he answered my newbie questions, to an extent, but not the point that i didnt have to search. ...

When BB2k said something, and I didnt understand it entirely, i went out of my way to find out what he meant without directly asking, as I wanted a bit of respect here as well; Ive seen many forum newbies just ask questions and expect to be spoonfed. Theres nothing more frustrating that telling someone the answer to something, only for them to come back and ask for clarification; All i ask for is a pointer of where to start. IIRC Groth helped me greatly too.

...
Thanks for the compliment.

I've been dodging this thread, but it keeps popping up, so here I am!

It's not hard to tell when someone is stubbornly wrong, but it's many times harder to set them straight.

An example: "having more water in a loop will keep your computer cooler."

It's easy to say that it's wrong, but credibility alone on the internet doesn't go very far. Post counts don't mean much.

So the correction has to come with an explanation. But...

If ya'll (newbs) are anything like me, you don't take just anyone's word for it, even if it does have an explanation (It helps a lot if the explanation can be understood!). I, for example, have listened to Bill's statements, but rarely have I been able to confirm the information. Information references are really important (albeit not always possible to substantiate basic physics).

ProCooling is special: we know, period. Don't ask how, just take our word for it. If you want an explanation, Google, then ask.

...and no, more water only does one thing: it increases the time it'll take for your computer to reach the max temp it would have reached with less water.
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2004, 08:30 PM   #158
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default

well, since you dropped in Ben, . . . .

you here on procooling, and the geek on OCers; birds of a feather (not meant too unkindly)
both started just like the rest of us, noobs
both have MASSIVE post counts, both do try to help
but, particularly in the beginning, both made a TON of incorrect recommendations
and today both are still (but less often) giving out bum advice upon occasion

how to deal with you guys ? (and the other million-count posting experts ?)
I accept that your intentions are the best, that is not the issue
but when you are factually incorrect I, at least, find myself in bad humor that those who have discussed so much still have it wrong

how is the continued dissemination of incorrect info to be stopped ?
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2004, 08:45 PM   #159
Stang_Man
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Plainville, CT
Posts: 79
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
SMan
you have touched on a point central to this whole noob aspect (which we all start as, agreed)

-> what to do when something incorrect is posted ?
and how to deal with a misplaced belief system that causes the poster to resist 'new' info contradicting their cherished pet theory ?
there is no way, just to explain your reasons.

it's the same as having jehova witnesses come over to your door, wanting you to convert. then you explain why and you have good reason, and yet they still don't want to believe you.

it takes mistakes for people to learn now, and not "i'll just take your word for it"

i myself am not really making mistakes, but experimenting, which in itself, is making "good mistakes"
Stang_Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2004, 09:28 PM   #160
LPorc
Cooling Neophyte
 
LPorc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 66
Default

After reading this thread I'm getting paranoid (well, a little more than usual, anyway)...

I've got plenty of wrong ideas to present, and mistakes to make.

I don't want any of the smart guys to go hermit or stroke out or anything, at least not until I've become clue-worthy.
LPorc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2004, 09:38 PM   #161
greenman100
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 414
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LPorc
After reading this thread I'm getting paranoid (well, a little more than usual, anyway)...

I've got plenty of wrong ideas to present, and mistakes to make.

I don't want any of the smart guys to go hermit or stroke out or anything, at least not until I've become clue-worthy.
To me, wrong ideas are not bad.

rejecting input on said ideas IS bad
greenman100 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2004, 09:55 PM   #162
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered

how is the continued dissemination of incorrect info to be stopped ?
... by the continued dissemination of correct info.


Greenman100's got it spot on: one must keep an open mind, and unfortunately, that's not a given for everyone. Such is life.
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2004, 10:21 PM   #163
Cathar
Thermophile
 
Cathar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigben2k
... by the continued dissemination of correct info.
That just leads to confusion though. People will read two conflicting things - how will they then choose which is correct?

Need to stop of the flow of incorrect info, yet the web is relatively full of it. Do a search on some topic on Google, and you're just as likely to dig up garbage as gold.

Need to take away the garbage too.
Cathar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2004, 10:31 PM   #164
BalefireX
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Isle of Man
Posts: 269
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
how is the continued dissemination of incorrect info to be stopped ?
There is certainly no malicious intent - people are genuinely unaware that they are incorrect - the problem occurs when egos get involved. However, the best thing to stop the dissemination of incorrect information is proof.

I believe that people should make a point of saying "no, thats not right" when someone says something untrue, but you really need to back it up with hard facts... people, especially people here, respond to pictures or numbers better than conjecture/unsubstantiated opinions.

Of course, you are in a better position than most to back up your statements, as you have access to possibly the best compilation of tests on most subjects WCing related. The only issue is how much of that you can share for the sake of education without compromising your competitiveness.
__________________
If not, why not?
BalefireX is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-19-2004, 10:31 PM   #165
pHaestus
Big Player
Making Big Money
 
pHaestus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com
Posts: 4,782
Default

glad to see you guys kept it civil all day. I have nothing to add at this time other than I remain convinced that our forums can more or less moderate themselves.
__________________
Getting paid like a biker with the best crank...
-MF DOOM
pHaestus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2004, 12:22 AM   #166
jaydee
Put up or Shut Up
 
jaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,506
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeeDj
High, all you have to do is drop me a line I will do it for you, and I really don't think it was me that threatened to ban you as I stay far away from cooling as networking, gaming, os's are more my experience that and SMP. Just let me know I will get it back for you. K ? I'll even change it to your current e-mail provided it's not hotmail. If have multiple accounts at OCF I can combine them to one account as well Jaydee, in reading that thread, it looks like you got caught in the chad crosshairs.

J
Thanks man, I will PM you at OCF when I get a chance.
jaydee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2004, 01:20 AM   #167
Blackeagle
Thermophile
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: U.S.A = Michigan
Posts: 1,243
Default

A interesting & differant sort of read.

JD,

Thanks for that link to the site where the advanced work is being done on copper rads. Have to wonder if they are also doing any heat cores yet.

I've nerver belonged to OCs but do go there some, mostly to check on front page articles. A lot more info regarding air cooling there, just have to have the BS detector on to sort fact from fantasy.

The water cooling forums are light years behind PC however. As Bill posted, they are very differant sites with differant goals and targeted readers.

I'd like to add my .02 regarding any improvements that can be made in the organizing of things to make it easier to find info there. I don't mind doing searches, but they sometimes have to be very creative to locate data that I know is there.............
Blackeagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2004, 01:47 AM   #168
Joe
The Pro/Life Support System
 
Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 4,037
Default

I gotta say-

Thanks IMOG : some good points and counter points!
Thanks Bill for my new sig line!
Thanks Cathar for some new geek terminology!
Nice to see you again Speedj, I see your adding some good fun to the thread! (BTW we gunna see you on October 2nd at the MWL5? )

Overall a fun thread to read, and impressed at JD's restraint Great thread
__________________
Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing...

ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.
Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2004, 01:33 PM   #169
IMOG
Cooling Neophyte
 
IMOG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 65
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
well, since you dropped in Ben, . . . .

you here on procooling, and the geek on OCers; birds of a feather (not meant too unkindly)
both started just like the rest of us, noobs
both have MASSIVE post counts, both do try to help
but, particularly in the beginning, both made a TON of incorrect recommendations
and today both are still (but less often) giving out bum advice upon occasion

how to deal with you guys ? (and the other million-count posting experts ?)
I accept that your intentions are the best, that is not the issue
but when you are factually incorrect I, at least, find myself in bad humor that those who have discussed so much still have it wrong

how is the continued dissemination of incorrect info to be stopped ?
Dunno if this is partially directed at me, however if it is, I believe it to be atleast partially mistaken.

Doubtlessly, we all make mistakes and make comments about things that turn out to not be true in the end. (You'd agree with this, right Bill?) Often times, those are the things we ultimately remember the best.

However, there is an important thing to remember, and its something I caught onto quite quickly after joining OCF. There are lots of comments that can contribute to the progression of a discussion. There is no necessity for comments to always be 100% correct, however if not 100% correct, the comments should be accompanied with some sort of reference to how certain one is - For example, "I'm fairly certain this is accurate" or "You might want to look into this further". Others can take thoughts like these and come to further more powerful realizations from them - this happens all the time around here.

The problem comes in when people pass off information as though it were fact, when actually its something they were not sure on or they were altogether wrong on.

How is the continued dissemination of incorrect information to be stopped?

I find this to be an interesting question to pose from your perspective's standpoint. Shouldn't the ability to discern between good and bad information be expected of each member?

In an open public forum, that seems the only realistic solution.

After all, they are already going to have to be able to discern between less important and more important information, given the wealth of information available for them to go through... Correct and incorrect just sit at extreme opposites along the spectrum of what is important and unimportant.

I guess I don't understand the importance of completely eliminateing the responsiblity for the individual to make this distinction. In open public forums like these, we will always face the challenge of overcoming disinformation.

@Joe: It's been nice meeting many of you guys, and catching up with some names I haven't seen in some time.
IMOG is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2004, 01:40 PM   #170
IMOG
Cooling Neophyte
 
IMOG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 65
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
I'd like to add my .02 regarding any improvements that can be made in the organizing of things to make it easier to find info there. I don't mind doing searches, but they sometimes have to be very creative to locate data that I know is there.............
Thanks for the suggestion, but AFAIK, the search function cannot be improved any - if the words exist in the thread, it will come up. If you get 500 results because of the vague search terms, you just need to think of something more specific. I don't know if theres anything wrong with the search that can be improved. I think with the volume of posting and topics, it is just more important to be specific to find what your looking for.
IMOG is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2004, 01:46 PM   #171
pHaestus
Big Player
Making Big Money
 
pHaestus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com
Posts: 4,782
Default

I dunno about that IMOG. I sometimes have open discussions in class when I am teaching undergraduates and more than a few times incorrect theories have been proposed that make no chemical sense. However, good theory or bad I go to the board and write it down and then ask the students to get from reactants to products with a plausible mechanism. Sometimes they can't get from a to b when the mechanism is correct, sometimes they get from a to b when their mechanism is dead wrong. My approach is to show them where they went wrong and then ask them to try again knowing that bit of info.

That sounds like your ideal flow of discussion on OCers, right? But what if the students complained about their feelings getting hurt when I pointed out that there was an error in their thinking? Perhaps they feel intimidated by an older and more vocal chemist leading the discussion and complained about that too. So let's say that it was decided by the Dean that instead of my leading the class discussions I could only work the Powerpoint presentation from the back of the room and not comment while another student from the class led the discussion. Would the education of the students be served by this? Would the correct answer be obtained by the end of class as often? That seems to be the end result of a forum that runs off its experts in the name of protecting the sensitivities of the uneducated.
__________________
Getting paid like a biker with the best crank...
-MF DOOM
pHaestus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2004, 01:53 PM   #172
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default

IMOG
not directed to you at all
not sure it helps to cite me as an example of anything other than a source of data, and purple prose

"Shouldn't the ability to discern between good and bad information be expected of each member?"
train wreck !
no
completely false assumption
if they have a BS in a technical field, perhaps (do you recall my tirades against that guy with an engn degree ?)
Joe 6pack is clueless, and subject to the everpresent allure of bullshit
and it is Joe 6pack's kids that are on OCers, crying for the spoon
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2004, 02:08 PM   #173
IMOG
Cooling Neophyte
 
IMOG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 65
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
I dunno about that IMOG. *SNIP - Include everything that was here - SNIP* That seems to be the end result of a forum that runs off its experts in the name of protecting the sensitivities of the uneducated.
This implies that we discourage corrections, which is not the case at all.

Here's a good cliche:

It's not what you say, its how you say it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
"Shouldn't the ability to discern between good and bad information be expected of each member?"
train wreck !
no
completely false assumption
if they have a BS in a technical field, perhaps (do you recall my tirades against that guy with an engn degree ?)
Joe 6pack is clueless, and subject to the everpresent allure of bullshit
and it is Joe 6pack's kids that are on OCers, crying for the spoon
And your concerned with these people who cannot discern good information from bad?

I would consider them a lost cause from the start... After all, if all they are doing is memorizing everything CORRECT you tell them, they aren't learning or understanding anything.

One must be able to tell the difference between good information and bad information in order to actually understand - without that, they are just memorizing.

Last edited by IMOG; 07-20-2004 at 02:20 PM.
IMOG is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2004, 02:14 PM   #174
pHaestus
Big Player
Making Big Money
 
pHaestus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com
Posts: 4,782
Default

but correctness is NOT dependent upon tone. If you value someone's delivery over their correctness then that is the root of the problem.

It's exactly what Bill was saying; people who are clueless but trying to be helpful will be elevated while those who are knowledgeable but impatient will be eschewed.
__________________
Getting paid like a biker with the best crank...
-MF DOOM
pHaestus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2004, 02:26 PM   #175
IMOG
Cooling Neophyte
 
IMOG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 65
Default

Perhaps the cliche caused confusion.

Correctness first, then delivery. We simply believe that being correct is not a free pass to being an ass or "virtually" spitting on someone with your response.

In fact, perhaps this will make it more clear. We don't encourage anything that pertains to the person. Complete and utter deconstruction of misinformation is not a problem - expanding that line of discussion to comment on the purity of the members mother is not okay.

There have been many times in the past when I have completely destroyed someones argument. However, I don't say anything about their lack of intelligence or otherwise.

@pH: Admittedly on a personal level, I do put a lot of value in delivery. I've seen some smart people through school and work who will tell someone something that is correct, but are sooo poor at explaining it, the information is lost. In much the same way, being a prick while correcting someone can just lead to an argument or anger, where the point of being correct can easily be lost.

More importantly, what is acceptable in the professional world? We may be a bunch of hobbyists, but that doesn't mean we have to act like them.

Last edited by IMOG; 07-20-2004 at 02:49 PM. Reason: Corrections, and comment to pH
IMOG is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(C) 2005 ProCooling.com
If we in some way offend you, insult you or your people, screw your mom, beat up your dad, or poop on your porch... we're sorry... we were probably really drunk...
Oh and dont steal our content bitches! Don't give us a reason to pee in your open car window this summer...